DUI reporting question

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Why is the FAA definition in MedXpress insufficient? Are you looking for a definition that applies for some other purpose than filling out a medical certificate application?
Because "increased tolerance" (per the instructions) to alcohol would apply if you have a single drink with dinner every night. That'd be dependence per the document. I guess nobody who ever has a beer should be flying? According to some, any alcohol is dangerous... and if you have to climb some stairs, you could trip and fall, so I guess we're all abusing it per the "use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous" bit.
 
So how are you going to bury the ER visit?

Remember 61.153, the good moral character clause. Like the guy from MA sez, you WILL lose it all. Soon enough.

The insurance footprint of an ER visit is HUGE and the agency can see it.

All this shucking and dutching...i have a guy who missed five weeks of work because we put him on a urine program immediately, by the time he was grounded he was already doin the evals.

Saved his career, actually....as at the time he was part 135, now 121 :)
 
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So how are you going to bury the ER visit?

...

The insurance footprint of an ER visit is HUGE and the agency can see it.

That's the point I was trying to make. The ER visit will have the .17 BAC, and the history of "falling asleep at the wheel" and the grogginess with the EMTs... it looks, walks and quacks like a DUI and no amount of legal sweeping under the rug is going to hide that. I think OP needs to face the music.
 
Because "increased tolerance" (per the instructions) to alcohol would apply if you have a single drink with dinner every night. That'd be dependence per the document. I guess nobody who ever has a beer should be flying? According to some, any alcohol is dangerous... and if you have to climb some stairs, you could trip and fall, so I guess we're all abusing it per the "use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous" bit.

The paradox with reporting your own abuse is that being in denial is part of the picture. On the other hand, non-abusers also report "no" but are telling the truth. My opinion is the self admission question is not designed to catch the til now unreported (and in denial) abuser, but simply to hang them after the fact for lying on the form.

The real truth- it's got to be a sliding scale with a lot of variables. Is one glass of wine every evening considered abuse or tolerance or does it need to be three? That might depend on whether you are male or female, your weight, whether it is with food, whether you feel withdrawal symptoms if you skip it, how long you've been doing it, the metabolism speed of your liver and who knows what else.
 
Thatd be fun for party tricks. Unfortunately I cant 'borrow' one of the portable breath testers for the weekend. I'd get my pee pee slapped. Now, runway-side field sobriety exercises on the other hand...
HGN JCranford...if you know how to do it...I can usually estimate within +-.01 of blood alcohol with HGN.
 
The paradox with reporting your own abuse is that being in denial is part of the picture. On the other hand, non-abusers also report "no" but are telling the truth. My opinion is the self admission question is not designed to catch the til now unreported (and in denial) abuser, but simply to hang them after the fact for lying on the form.

About 30 years ago I represented a guy on a first DUI. No prior history of abuse but the probation officer was a recovering alcoholic who believed everyone who took a drink had a drinking problem. So my client had the paradox in full. "Denial is the first symptom of alcoholism. Since he denies it, It shows he's an alcoholic." Fortunately, the judge knew his probation officer well.
 
About 30 years ago I represented a guy on a first DUI. No prior history of abuse but the probation officer was a recovering alcoholic who believed everyone who took a drink had a drinking problem. So my client had the paradox in full. "Denial is the first symptom of alcoholism. Since he denies it, It shows he's an alcoholic." Fortunately, the judge knew his probation officer well.

Everyone who took Logic 101 in college should avoid this thought trap, but unfortunately, most people didn't.
 
So how are you going to bury the ER visit?


Question for my edification,

If the ER visit was paid for in cash, would it be "buried"?

I may have mistakenly thought it was only visible outside of Doctor/ Patient when paid by insurance.
 
Question for my edification,

If the ER visit was paid for in cash, would it be "buried"?

I may have mistakenly thought it was only visible outside of Doctor/ Patient when paid by insurance.
There is going to a record of it somewhere, all associated and linked to your name and SSN. Hospitals retain the chart of the visit for very long time in case they are hauled into court about it.

So that record is discoverable. And as Rushie said about walking and quacking....
 
About 30 years ago I represented a guy on a first DUI. No prior history of abuse but the probation officer was a recovering alcoholic who believed everyone who took a drink had a drinking problem. So my client had the paradox in full. "Denial is the first symptom of alcoholism. Since he denies it, It shows he's an alcoholic." Fortunately, the judge knew his probation officer well.
No. Getting caught driving over the limit was the first symptom. Denying that is a problem is the second.
 
No. Getting caught driving over the limit was the first symptom. Denying that is a problem is the second.
Exactly his attitude. People aren't permitted to make mistakes. It has to be a symptom of something terrible. Zero tolerance of human failing. He was a man ahead of his time.
 
So I have read the application very carefully, especially box 18. Honestly I do not remember much about the accident. The official accident report states I was groggy and confused but it never mentioned me being unconscious at all. I honestly don't know if I was or not but it mentioned me talking the whole time until they sedated me and I was responsive when they got me out of the car. I truly don't believe anything in question 18 applies to me. I have never been diagnosed with any substance abuse or mental disorder. blood was not taken at the hospital as I declined any further treatment and the doctor said I was good to go. I truly believe I dodged a bullet. Hopefully one of the experts can advise further. This happened in utah

Like many states, in Utah you must first be arrested for DUI and then requested to provide a chemical test. Arrested does not mean you went to jail. After the arrest, your drivers license was supposed to be seized and a hearing held within 29 days if you objected to a suspension of your license.

I would get a certified copy of the your Utah driving record and make certain there are no suspensions - especially if you do not have a Utah drivers license because you may get the suspension notice for your home state.

Given the officer who handled this was an idiot, I suspect you will find the only evidence of the event to be an accident report. If there is record for the DUI citation, I would employ your attorney to get it expunged before I submitted to an FAA medical.

Once you are certain your driving record is in order, I would report being evaluated at the hospital and released without treatment for a automobile accident.

With that said, .17 is really drunk dude.
 
So how are you going to bury the ER visit?

Remember 61.153, the good moral character clause. Like the guy from MA sez, you WILL lose it all. Soon enough.

The insurance footprint of an ER visit is HUGE and the agency can see it.

All this shucking and dutching...i have a guy who missed five weeks of work because we put him on a urine program immediately, by the time he was grounded he was already doin the evals.

Saved his career, actually....as at the time he was part 135, now 121 :)

So there is no insurance footprint I paid with cash and told them I have no insurance, since my airline pays part of my insurance they certainly would have access to that had I not paid in cash. I told them before I left I would gladly pay the reduced cash rate upfront immediately. They happily accepted my offer and that was that. This wasn't an admission to a hospital I was evaluated and released so as far as I can tell I can report this as a visit to a medical professional to be evaluated. His report that I was good to go should be good enough. So this thread blew up while I was out on a trip. I have a few final thoughts.

At the outset, drinking and driving is never tolerable. What I did was stupid and foolish and yes I got off on a technicality. The fact is years ago this wouldn't even be an issue because the FAA form asked about convictions not arrests. Now a .17 BAC may seem high but the fact is people metabolize alcohol in different ways and I am a bigger guy (6'2 200 lbs) so that has to be taken into account. Just because people get one DUI doesn't mean they have a substance abuse problem. People throw that around way too quickly and quite frankly the treatment industry has become one big racket for ripping people off. If I don't drink and drive, I never drink more than 2 beers on an overnite, and I don't drink much on my days off I do not see what the problem is.

I have done a lot of research into this and everyone automatically assumes abstinence only and reciting that AA crap is the only answer for everyone that has made a mistake. AA is not for everyone and quite frankly it is disturbing that a government entity forces someone to accept god and have sponsors who tell you if you do not pray and accept god then they will not sponsor you and give a good report to your FAA doc/HIMS team. I have talked to pilots that have been through this that really do not have a problem. They make mistakes, get arrested or convicted for DUI and all of a sudden they are forced into this.

Some people really do have a problem and need help. AA works for some people but that should not be the only option. There are other programs out there that work just as well. As a matter of fact one guy I talked to in the HIMS program told me that when he goes to the meetings he has to go to a lot of people show up drunk or high. Plenty of people make mistakes but turn things around. I never drink more than 3-4 standard sized drinks in one evening and again never more than 2 when I am on a trip. That is not an alcoholic ladies and gentleman.
 
Exactly his attitude. People aren't permitted to make mistakes. It has to be a symptom of something terrible. Zero tolerance of human failing. He was a man ahead of his time.

This is what our society has come to. It is a joke because my friends son who is 23 got a public intox ticket last year for being rowdy at a football tailgate party in the parking lot by an overzealous officer. He thought it was just a ticket but it is actually a criminal charge. Didn't report it on his application (to a call center mind you) and they made him jump through all kinds of hoops to keep his job offer. What a joke. He has to get scrutinized for having fun at the university tailgate? It is sad what things have come to. There is a reason why we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.
 
The paradox with reporting your own abuse is that being in denial is part of the picture. On the other hand, non-abusers also report "no" but are telling the truth. My opinion is the self admission question is not designed to catch the til now unreported (and in denial) abuser, but simply to hang them after the fact for lying on the form.

The real truth- it's got to be a sliding scale with a lot of variables. Is one glass of wine every evening considered abuse or tolerance or does it need to be three? That might depend on whether you are male or female, your weight, whether it is with food, whether you feel withdrawal symptoms if you skip it, how long you've been doing it, the metabolism speed of your liver and who knows what else.
Wonderfully written! I should have thought to articulate that point as it drives what I've been saying home.
 
So there is no insurance footprint I paid with cash and told them I have no insurance, since my airline pays part of my insurance they certainly would have access to that had I not paid in cash. I told them before I left I would gladly pay the reduced cash rate upfront immediately. They happily accepted my offer and that was that. This wasn't an admission to a hospital I was evaluated and released so as far as I can tell I can report this as a visit to a medical professional to be evaluated. His report that I was good to go should be good enough. So this thread blew up while I was out on a trip. I have a few final thoughts.

So I got real curious about the true story of your medical records footprint. Turns out that in order for you to pay cash and require that the provider NOT notify your insurance company, you must formally request a "Right to Restrict Disclosure". This was added to the HIPPA in 2013. If you did not sign such a form at the ER then it is not obligated to keep your visit from your insurance company. If you DID sign it, OR you didn't give them your insurance information, then your visit may still be revealed. All that restriction covers is your insurance, it does not cover other providers. In other words, as long as you used your true identity, that visit can be told to any other doctor or hospital that ever treats you. And once another doctor or provider including pharmacies, hospitals, counselors, physical therapists, chiropractors, etc., then their notes to the insurance company may contain reference to that event.

In any case if it never leaves that hospital's records and never makes it to your insurance company, it will still be there in that hospital's records and the treating physician's records and the disclosure restriction does not apply to the FAA. If you report the visit at your next medical, the FAA knows you were there and can request the record. If you don't report it, maybe they won't find out about the visit but now you've committed a pretty egregious lie which if you ever do get in hot water will make everything far worse, especially for your estate after the crash which is when they'll get REAL interested in your history.

Here's the link to the info:
https://www.worldprivacyforum.org/2014/01/wpf-report-paying-out-of-pocket-to-protect-health-privacy/


as far as I can tell I can report this as a visit to a medical professional to be evaluated. His report that I was good to go should be good enough.

Which is why in my first post I advised you get a copy of all the records, not just the discharge summary. I seriously doubt there is no mention anywhere of your BAC, the fact that you were confused and, because they had to sedate you, likely combative, and the EMT gave them the history of possible LOC while driving as your reason for hitting the tree. That stuff is there somewhere even if they don't upload it to your "print it out yourself" portal. (The latest in provider no-service these days...)

You can do this two ways; go for it and maybe it'll never come back to bite you. Keep having your two beers on work nights and 3 or 4 at other times and fly for a living, but you'll never be 100% sure you're in the clear. If you go this route I advise getting enough personal liability insurance to leave your estate untouched for your family, and I'd appreciate you letting me know what commercial flights you're working so I can avoid them.

Or you can take the high road and come clean. It's not about whether anyone here thinks you have a "problem". It's about the true facts; and the true fact is you had a DUI in reality, if it didn't stick legally. Anything other than coming clean to your employer and the FAA is to attempt to cover the reality of that event.
 
This is what our society has come to. It is a joke because my friends son who is 23 got a public intox ticket last year for being rowdy at a football tailgate party in the parking lot by an overzealous officer. He thought it was just a ticket but it is actually a criminal charge. Didn't report it on his application (to a call center mind you) and they made him jump through all kinds of hoops to keep his job offer. What a joke. He has to get scrutinized for having fun at the university tailgate? It is sad what things have come to. There is a reason why we have the highest incarceration rate in the world.
There's a big difference between drinking in a parking lot at a game and drinking and driving your car until a tree stops you.
 
Wonderfully written! I should have thought to articulate that point as it drives what I've been saying home.

Your posts are why I posted that post. There is a big gray area in between the full on obvious alcoholic, we know who they are, and the occasional social drinker who is definitely not an alcoholic, we pretty much know who they are too with the exception of the completely intolerant who believe one sip makes you an alcoholic for life. (My mom used to think that way. She railed against the demon alcohol all my childhood, kept saying "all it takes is one drink and you're hooked". She would not let a drop cross her lips probably more than 70 years of her life. Now at age 90 she all of a sudden likes her glass of wine once in a while and even an occasional watered down whiskey. Ha ha ha ha!!! Go figure. Well she doesn't drive anymore so why not?)

Anyhoo all those in the muddy area in between need the professional to discern whether you have become an actual addict to the substance or are otherwise a problem user. Having an accident after drinking is one clue, not by itself the whole story, but highly suggestive. And if that one thing happens, the FAA wants the professional evaluation, doesn't like us to try to say ourselves, "well I'm not an alcoholic, that one incident was just a one-fer."
 
You can do this two ways; go for it and maybe it'll never come back to bite you. Keep having your two beers on work nights and 3 or 4 at other times and fly for a living, but you'll never be 100% sure you're in the clear. If you go this route I advise getting enough personal liability insurance to leave your estate untouched for your family, and I'd appreciate you letting me know what commercial flights you're working so I can avoid them.

Or you can take the high road and come clean. It's not about whether anyone here thinks you have a "problem". It's about the true facts; and the true fact is you had a DUI in reality, if it didn't stick legally. Anything other than coming clean to your employer and the FAA is to attempt to cover the reality of that event.
Given the concerns over career, etc, I would not take any road on this without professional advice. 61.15 is specific on what needs to be disclosed. So is the medical application. There's not some open-ended question like, "have you ever in your life driven after a few too many (or a lot too many)?" The information is either required to be disclosed or is not required to be disclosed. Yes, one can always take the high road and say, "I know you didn't ask me about this but..."

Yes, there is definitely a potential problem with trying to avoid proper disclosure of the medical visit and of the legal activity, but I'm not giving advice here (except to see a professional).
 
Given the concerns over career, etc, I would not take any road on this without professional advice. 61.15 is specific on what needs to be disclosed. So is the medical application. There's not some open-ended question like, "have you ever in your life driven after a few too many (or a lot too many)?" The information is either required to be disclosed or is not required to be disclosed. Yes, one can always take the high road and say, "I know you didn't ask me about this but..."

Yes, there is definitely a potential problem with trying to avoid proper disclosure of the medical visit and of the legal activity, but I'm not giving advice here (except to see a professional).

You are right I agree with this actually.
 
This is really getting laughable. An ambulance trip to the ER, a LOC incident where there must have been at least an x-ray if not an imaging scan, and all paid for with a "cash discount".

The bill would easily have been $10K.
 
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This is really getting laughable. An ambulance trip to the ER, a LOC incident where there must have been at least an x-ray if not an imaging scan, and all paid for with a "cash discount".

The bill would easily have been $10K.

Possibly not. As it happens, the amount billed your insurance company is many orders of magnitude higher than what they actually pay, and what the hospital charges if you pay cash only. In fact if you don't have a lot of medical problems and won't meet your deductible they are now recommending you ask about paying cash. A bill that might be $2000 going to your deductible that will be reset at the end of the year you might be able to pay the doctor $500 and settle it. It's the new way people are finding to save money on medical expenses.

I did not know this until I looked around because of this thread. I kept coming up with articles about this.
 
Here's what concerns me. Blood was drawn and it was .17. There is a record of that somewhere. It may have been "thrown out" as evidence because the cop didn't follow proper procedure but that doesn't mean the hospital "threw out" the lab result. When the FAA and NTSB are investigating the crash they will discover it and they are not going to be bound by the cop's improper procedure. It is a medical record, not a legal record. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this. OP might be able to get away without reporting this as long as no planes get bent and possibly he may technically be in the clear about reporting it if there was no "arrest" but when the lawsuits come after his estate I don't think that's going to help his family's defense.
He didn't crash a plane, so why is the NTSB investigating? If he crashes a plane later, why would it matter that he was drunk some other time when he wasn't flying a plane?
 
With all due respect to the our excellent AMEs here, this is a legal question. The best advice was given early. Shut up and talk to a lawyer.
 
give it up??? or you can buy clean urines online ... yup had one of those too. my nurse caught the pilot err ... in the act!
 
A couple of beers in an hour or so time puts most people over the legal limit.
No it doesn't. Since you're talking about "most people", if we take the average male weight in the US, 196 lbs, in one hour, would have to consume 55 oz , or 4-and-7/12 12oz bottles of beer to reach .079 (just under the limit). So 5 beers, in one hour, then yes.

And other myths have been mentioned above such as body weight (mentioned above by the original poster in the reverse of the way it works), and being a frequent drinker (makes people more tolerant to the effects of alcohol, but no appreciable effect on blood alcohol level).
 
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If he had a warrant for his arrest then that has a lot more chance of showing up, especially if he ended up getting arrested/fingerprinted due to the warrant which he probably did. He probably never had the arrest record seal I never had a warrant for my arrest issued, the charges were filed in Justice Court in a small town. I highly doubt the FAA is going to check every justice court record in America. Again no arrest and no conviction or action. When it is expunged if your lawyer does it right then it does not show up for anyone. He has had people pass FBI background checks. Thing is being in the HIMS program is a giant scarlet letter for a lot of people. You have a special issuance medical and a lot of bigger airlines won't even touch people with an SI due to substance abuse. I have heard this straight out of HR peoples mouths. Also the things they make you do are ridiculous. I have spoken to the ALPA HIMS person anonymously and he straight up told me if you don't find your own version of god you won't make it through the program and no one will sponsor you and if you have no sponsor you do not get a medical. So basically you have to blow smoke up peoples butts for however long you are in the program because you don't share their beliefs(he told me it is 3-5 years).Again I know I made a mistake, had too much to drink for my friends going away party and I should have just called an uber. I now always use uber and never drive if I even have 1 or 2 drinks. I never drink more than 2 beers on an overnight and it is pretty much the same at home and I don't even drink more than 2 or 3 nights a week. I just want to get through this and move on with my life. They even told me you have to see a therapist in the program, I do not need therapy I am not depressed and I don't have a substance abuse problem. I would have to act like something was wrong for me so they had something to fix just to get my medical back. no thank you

You sound like a very well put-together cat who has it all figured out. Why are you asking us silly questions when you clearly know all the answers? Keep on keepin' on, brother!

(Come on, man! Get it together!!! You're obviously NOT going to get the answer you want, which is "Dude, you're fine." Yeah, you screwed up. Screwing up has actual consequences, which you may find out in some very hard ways. Do this right and minimize them RIGHT NOW.)
 
I'm wondering why someone who is posting anonymously is trying to convince a bunch of strangers, who don't even know who he is, that he doesn't have a drinking problem. Seems like a waste of time to me.
 
I agree with others. Troll alert. And if this is real we all know he's not going to report it. I seriously doubt he dropped 10 large at the hospital just like that and even if he did I am pretty sure they hospital still keeps records.
 
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