DUI reporting question

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DUI Reporting Question said:
If he had a warrant for his arrest then that has a lot more chance of showing up, especially if he ended up getting arrested/fingerprinted due to the warrant which he probably did. He probably never had the arrest record seal I never had a warrant for my arrest issued, the charges were filed in Justice Court in a small town. I highly doubt the FAA is going to check every justice court record in America. Again no arrest and no conviction or action. When it is expunged if your lawyer does it right then it does not show up for anyone. He has had people pass FBI background checks. Thing is being in the HIMS program is a giant scarlet letter for a lot of people. You have a special issuance medical and a lot of bigger airlines won't even touch people with an SI due to substance abuse. I have heard this straight out of HR peoples mouths. Also the things they make you do are ridiculous. I have spoken to the ALPA HIMS person anonymously and he straight up told me if you don't find your own version of god you won't make it through the program and no one will sponsor you and if you have no sponsor you do not get a medical. So basically you have to blow smoke up peoples butts for however long you are in the program because you don't share their beliefs(he told me it is 3-5 years).Again I know I made a mistake, had too much to drink for my friends going away party and I should have just called an uber. I now always use uber and never drive if I even have 1 or 2 drinks. I never drink more than 2 beers on an overnight and it is pretty much the same at home and I don't even drink more than 2 or 3 nights a week. I just want to get through this and move on with my life. They even told me you have to see a therapist in the program, I do not need therapy I am not depressed and I don't have a substance abuse problem. I would have to act like something was wrong for me so they had something to fix just to get my medical back. no thank you
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He was never arrested, just charged. No fingerprints were taken.
 
3393RP said:
You guys are being trolled.
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Of course that's possible. On the other hand I am certain there are pilots pulling this s***. The advice given is real even if this particular story isn't.
 
3393RP said:
You guys are being trolled.
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Most likely.

fishing-cartoon-gif.gif
 
I know everybody makes mistakes, I just have a hard time believing an airline pilot would be this careless. Decisions like the ones he made could destroy his whole career, everything he worked for.
 
A_Valkyrie said:
I know everybody makes mistakes, I just have a hard time believing an airline pilot would be this careless. Decisions like the ones he made could destroy his whole career, everything he worked for.
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It happens more than you think. That's why the HIMS program was set up
 
A_Valkyrie said:
I know everybody makes mistakes, I just have a hard time believing an airline pilot would be this careless. Decisions like the ones he made could destroy his whole career, everything he worked for.
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A cousin of mine was a captain at a major airline for many years, and he drank like a fish. He would dry out the required number of hours before each flight. After he retired, he drank nearly non-stop. He never had a DUI that I'm aware of, however.

There are occasional news reports of airline pilots trashing their careers by showing up for work under the influence, so I don't see why this should be so hard to believe.
 
Rushie said:
Of course that's possible. On the other hand I am certain there are pilots pulling this s***. The advice given is real even if this particular story isn't.
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People do make this mistake in a regular basis. My example is from a real person. Honestly I think his situation forced him deal with sobriety , ultimately to his benefit. It was a very expensive and humbling experience
 
One of my good friends from college is now awaiting trial for vehicular manslaughter charges after crashing his car and killing his best friend in the passenger seat on the way home from a bar. His BAC was 0.23. He was a cop and definitely should have known better. Now his career is over, he's facing 15 years in prison, and he has to live with the fact that his best friend is dead because of him. This crap can get very bad.
 
IF I can paraphrase:

Was he arrested? Prob not.

Was there a Motor Vehicle Action? apparently not.

The FAA is very specific in the question - and they wrote it. So from a technical legal standpoint it is likely even under a generous interpretation of their question [in their favor], the answer is no. They did not ask: "Since your last medical have you been charged with a DW/DUI etc"

Now, moving on to the displayed attitude and the risk profile given a 0.17 - we have problem Houston.

Is that accurately stated for everyone?

From a purely practical perspective, if you are in fact an airline pilot, the you need to approach your union rep, contact the appropriate people in that organization and disclose this to them and get advice. And then follow that advice. If you have medical loss insurance, you need to review that as well and ascertain what they need you to do, if anything there.

I said it first when I pointed out the obvious issues with attitude and consciousness involving a 0.17. you are not a casual once a week 2-3 drinks having the ability to even stagger across a parking lot and get into a car and drive off at 0.17. I know everyone is different, but 0.17 shows tolerance. I would bet that 95% of the people on this board would be passed out unconscious at 0.12, much less over 0.15. There is a reason the FAA uses 0.15 as their cutoff for problem drinking. now, you could have come up to 0.17 and the explanation is that you passed out driving as the number came up - but - you don't see that decision making as a problem?

Alcohol abuse is all the rage in the bureaucracy right now - and the pols have been shamed into cracking down hard on it - thats the cold truth today/.

Don't you think you should be evaluated by a professional? If you are right - and don't have a problem with alcohol - then isn't is better to have a professional HIMS psych say that???
 
What about "18o: Alcohol dependence or abuse," in light of the FAA's definition of abuse quoted earlier?
 
Threads like this make me glad to be a teetotaler several years ago when I had a physical with Dr. Bruce when I was getting back into flying he even said, "thank you for not drinking" after palpitating my liver.

Assuming this isn't a troll thread if I was the OP I would be talking to a lawyer. It would seem to me the question becomes is his position of answering no on the form defensible if this were to come to a hearing. For the cost of the legal consultation vs. losing your career I would think it would be worth it.
Scenario 1: Lawyer advises him to say no he says no and nothing ever comes of it.
Scenario 2: Lawyer advises him to say no and the FAA pulls his cert he goes to a hearing and the lawyer explains how saying no was technically the correct thing to do.
Scenario outcome 2a: They see it the lawyers way and nothing happens.
Scenario outcome 2b: They don't and he ends up in HIMS
Scenario 3: Lawyer advises say yes and he ends up in HIMS
 
comanchepilot said:
I would bet that 95% of the people on this board would be passed out unconscious at 0.12, much less over 0.15.
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This has got me thinking....

@JCranford -- if you are sufficiently trained to do law enforcement level field sobriety tests, bring your portable breathalyzer to Gaston's. I for one would like to see what level I blow when at different stages of the festivities. And it might make for interesting entertainment. If there is a small cost associated for the straws or supplies, I'll help with that.
 
comanchepilot said:
Don't you think you should be evaluated by a professional? If you are right - and don't have a problem with alcohol - then isn't is better to have a professional HIMS psych say that???
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The highlighted echos what I was trying to say in post #41
 
Here's what concerns me. Blood was drawn and it was .17. There is a record of that somewhere. It may have been "thrown out" as evidence because the cop didn't follow proper procedure but that doesn't mean the hospital "threw out" the lab result. When the FAA and NTSB are investigating the crash they will discover it and they are not going to be bound by the cop's improper procedure. It is a medical record, not a legal record. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this. OP might be able to get away without reporting this as long as no planes get bent and possibly he may technically be in the clear about reporting it if there was no "arrest" but when the lawsuits come after his estate I don't think that's going to help his family's defense.
 
AggieMike88 said:
This has got me thinking....

@JCranford -- if you are sufficiently trained to do law enforcement level field sobriety tests, bring your portable breathalyzer to Gaston's. I for one would like to see what level I blow when at different stages of the festivities. And it might make for interesting entertainment. If there is a small cost associated for the straws or supplies, I'll help with that.
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Thatd be fun for party tricks. Unfortunately I cant 'borrow' one of the portable breath testers for the weekend. I'd get my pee pee slapped. Now, runway-side field sobriety exercises on the other hand...
 
Rushie said:
Here's what concerns me. Blood was drawn and it was .17. There is a record of that somewhere. It may have been "thrown out" as evidence because the cop didn't follow proper procedure but that doesn't mean the hospital "threw out" the lab result. When the FAA and NTSB are investigating the crash they will discover it and they are not going to be bound by the cop's improper procedure. It is a medical record, not a legal record. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong about this. OP might be able to get away without reporting this as long as no planes get bent and possibly he may technically be in the clear about reporting it if there was no "arrest" but when the lawsuits come after his estate I don't think that's going to help his family's defense.
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In addition, arrests or convictions are not the only things that need to be reported. See the instructions that apply to questions 18n and o. It seems to me that having so much to drink that he fell asleep and crashed into a tree while driving home with a BAC of 0.17 would easily qualify as "use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous." And it goes on to say that "substance" includes alcohol.

18n: Substance dependence, failed a drug test ever, or substance abuse or use of illegal substance in the last 2 years

18o: Alcohol dependence or abuse

[emphasis added]​

https://www.leftseat.com/pdffiles/8500-8new.pdf
 
This is why he needs to talk to a lawyer. You never invite the man into your life unnecessarily.
 
JCranford said:
Thatd be fun for party tricks. Unfortunately I cant 'borrow' one of the portable breath testers for the weekend. I'd get my pee pee slapped. Now, runway-side field sobriety exercises on the other hand...
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How much is a civilian version that would work for our entertainment? Send me a link or two of what would work and I'll consider....
 
Rushie said:
Hmmm true. I have no idea if that offers protection or if it's still somehow recorded and can be tracked. This is getting above my level of cyber expertise.

PS a little googling tells me that tracing the IP will get you to your ISP. From there it's possible if your ISP has log records of who had what dynamic IP at a particular time they can nail you but normally law enforcement would have to get a warrant or court order to access that information and ISPs may not retain the records for very long. So in theory yes they can but in reality if OP augers in ten years from now I would guess the chance of this anonymous post being uncovered would be small.
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There are a lot of steps to do this and number of entirely likely stumbling blocks (eg POA not giving up the IP without a warrant, the ISP doing the same)... or the poster using a random wifi hotspot... or the request being too late and there being no logs, or involved parties not keeping logs, or hiding behind a VPN, etc, etc.

Will a judge issue a warrant for an anonymous posting about talking about something that may or may not even be a crime? Kinda doubt it.

Long story short it's plausible but short of a case of terrorism or a huge murder trial or something on that level I don't think anyone would make the effort.
 
But, he doesn't have a drinking problem, and this woke him up and he learned his lesson. Wait, I thought he didn't have a problem, so what lesson? Huh?

After this situation, if you haven't stopped drinking completely, you gots a problem. It's just a matter of time.....
 
AggieMike88 said:
How much is a civilian version that would work for our entertainment? Send me a link or two of what would work and I'll consider....
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BACtrack S80 Pro, 50 mouthpieces, around $150.

That was what my son came up with for Stupid Bachelor Party Tricks.
 
JCranford said:
Thatd be fun for party tricks. Unfortunately I cant 'borrow' one of the portable breath testers for the weekend. I'd get my pee pee slapped. Now, runway-side field sobriety exercises on the other hand...
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Aw, come on!! What's a small pee-pee between friends???
 
Palmpilot said:
In addition, arrests or convictions are not the only things that need to be reported. See the instructions that apply to questions 18n and o. It seems to me that having so much to drink that he fell asleep and crashed into a tree while driving home with a BAC of 0.17 would easily qualify as "use of a substance or substances in situations in which such use is physically hazardous." And it goes on to say that "substance" includes alcohol.

18n: Substance dependence, failed a drug test ever, or substance abuse or use of illegal substance in the last 2 years

18o: Alcohol dependence or abuse

[emphasis added]​

https://www.leftseat.com/pdffiles/8500-8new.pdf
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Could the FAA reasonably expect the applicant to know what their definition of abuse is? It's self-reported, and we're not doctors. As far as I recall, no definition was on the medxpress form, either.
 
Kritchlow said:
By definition a pee-pee is not big.

But, I'll give you a break. You are not expected to know about the terminology for larger ones.
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True. Only those of you with smaller units pay attention to these details.
 
mkosmo said:
Could the FAA reasonably expect the applicant to know what their definition of abuse is? It's self-reported, and we're not doctors. As far as I recall, no definition was on the medxpress form, either.
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The definition is in the instructions for the MedXpress form. They don't just pop up when you go to fill out the form, though - you have to go looking for them in one of the menus. Whether that would stop the FAA from bringing an administrative action, I have no idea.
 
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mkosmo said:
I meant the definition of abuse in general.
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I don't understand what you mean. Why would that be relevant, rather than the specific definition in the instructions?
 
The OP sounds an awful lot like my my alchoholic brother. Who ME I DONT HAVE A DRINKING PROBLEM !!? Stated as they were drawing blood at the ER after I found him unconcious and barely breathing. BAC was .50 according to the doctor he should have been dead. Found him beside his still running vehicle. Never had a DUI though. Makes me sick to see someone smart and talented throw their entire life away for a drink.
 
MassPilot said:
One of my good friends from college is now awaiting trial for vehicular manslaughter charges after crashing his car and killing his best friend in the passenger seat on the way home from a bar. His BAC was 0.23. He was a cop and definitely should have known better. Now his career is over, he's facing 15 years in prison, and he has to live with the fact that his best friend is dead because of him. This crap can get very bad.
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...and that very likely could have been the conclusion of the OP's story. All things considering, even if he did loose his career, it's still better than killing someone and serving jail time. Perhaps he missed the lesson in school on actions having consequences.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't understand what you mean. Why would that be relevant, rather than the specific definition in the instructions?
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It'd be relevant since dependency/abuse may be considered a diagnosis, right? How are we to know what the specific criteria are. If you haven't been arrested/convicted or otherwise been diagnosed, how could you be expected to check yes? I've been digging through the AME site trying to find some kind of definition myself (a layman) would understand, but I can't.

Is three beers a night after work, when it in no way is impacting your flying, considered abuse? How about one? Or does it have to be 5? Or do you have to be drinking alone? Or do you have to wind up like this guy?

I'm not really trying to tie my question to OP. I'm trying to think about this one generally.
 
Why is the FAA definition in MedXpress insufficient? Are you looking for a definition that applies for some other purpose than filling out a medical certificate application?
 
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