DUI/definition of arrest

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I know there has been alot of talk about about DUI's and arrests vs. convictions. I have read through them and im still trying to figure out my particular situation. I will make a long story short as possible. About 6 months ago I was in a car accident. All I can tell you (because I cannot recall the events) is that I told the police officer that I was not driving. I was transported to the hospital. After investigating the cop issued a ticket for DUI and careless driving but I did not sign it and he gave it to my dad. I was never "arrested". In other words, they did not read me my rights, did not put me in cuffs, did not take me to jail. I was released from the hospital into my families care. I hired a lawyer and he went to court for me because I wasnt properly served. The case was dismissed without prejudice, meaning the cop has 18 months (statute of limitations) to find me and serve me again which he has not, yet. A couple days ago I filled out and submitted the 8500 and selected no for that question. Because I was not arrested nor was I convicted. Well today I ran my background check trying to search something from 15 years ago when I was 12 (because it stopped me from buying a gun last year and I wanted to see what comes up) And yes I put that on the 8500 as well. However the incident I was looking for wasnt on there (juvenile) however it says that I was arrested for DUI. The date of the "arrest" is a month and a week after the date of offense. Which happens to be the same day of the arraignment that i did not attend and the same day my lawyer took me to get finger printed and photographed because it was court ordered. So, how do I go about this? I put 'no' on the 8500 because I wasnt, by definition, arrested but its on my background check. The 8500 has already been submitted but my physical appt isnt till next week. Any help would be appreciated.
 
The 8500 has already been submitted but my physical appt isnt till next week
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IF you have filled out the 8500-8 via http://medxpress.faa.gov, gotten your confirmation code, BUT HAVE YET to turn over the code to an AME, then you still have a chance to fix that.

Until you turn over the code, the information you entered is not "LIVE" yet.

My suggestion for your situation is to wait for someone like Bruce to provide guidance, and if needed, cancel your appointment with the AME and work on following the guidance and getting things figured out. Only after you have gotten things straight do you fill out MedXpress again with the correct information and make your appointment.

In the mean time, the data on "todays" MedXpress will just languish until it reaches the 30-day experiation point and the electrons are recycled. If you never turn over the confirmation code, no one official is going to see it and there is no penalty for allowing the 30-day vaporization to occur.
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Not that this is going to help you with the FAA, but were you the only one in the car, and was a alcohol level done on you? In other words other than the police officers saying you were DUI what evidence is there to support your contention or theirs. On second thought, this may be helpful if you have to report it and it supports your contention.
 
A BAC was done at the hospital but 4 hours after the incident (hence my driving privileges were not revoked. There were no witnesses to the accident however I was the only one at the scene. After the investigation, the evidence points to me as the driver, thats why he gave me the ticket. Evidence such as, drivers side seat belt showing signs of stress, not the passenger... only blood on drivers side. When the first person showed up I was sitting in a field. They brought dogs in and everytime after visiting the drivers side, they would go to where i was in the field. I was never put in cuffs, read my rights, taken to jail, signed a ticket. Never saw the inside of a courtroom, etc. I paid a retainer fee to a lawyer and that was it.
 
For this one, I think you need an aviation attorney's official legal advice along with that of a criminal defense attorney -- before you go to the AME and hand in the code.
 
So you got so drunk you can't remember and then got behind the wheel of a car. Now you want to fly?

I'm not usually one to look down on folks for a DUI. The cops around here have tried to shove DUIs down people's throats who were clearly below the limit and had not been driving sloppily. DUI has become the latest court/cop cash cow and that has really reduced my scorn for (at least first time) offenders.

Dude, get ahold of yourself. You have a drinking problem whether you care to admit it or not. Regardless of if you were technically arrested or not. You need H-E-L-P to get yourself back under control and address the underlying issues of your alcohol abuse.

The least worry you have is pasing a Class 3 Medical.

I am not a teatotaller by any stretch. I'm not some old fuddy-duddy droning on about, "Dem darn kids." I'm concerned that you're going to maim or kill yourself early in life.

Most people if they blacked out and were told they were found sitting in a field after a car wreck would be mortified at their loss of control. Lawyer up all you want but you'll need a lot of professional medical help to keep from meeting the ultimate judge in the near future.

For Thor's sake, you could've killed someone else that night and not even known. Which morning would you like to wake up and have a vehicular homicide charge dangling over your head? Even if you don't value your own life you should at least be a little concerned about the other innocent people on the road.

And yet you're worried about flying???

Priorities bro, get some.
 
What was your BAC when they took it?

They didn't cuff you and lock you up because you were in an accident and they took you to the hospital. It's still an arrest though.

So do you know how much you had to drink before you magic found yourself in a car accident?
 
You'll also have to check and explain 'unconsciousness for any reason.' Story is not going to read well.
 
Dude. You are sooo cooked. Usually guys who start string with a title like this are. "Dancing on the head of a pin". You know, the Feds have thought about this one?

Never use that 8500-8. Check yes, or you've just become an official liar. That's an affadavit, the 8500-8, it is....remember they got Martha Stewart for LYING to a federal official.

Even if the AME issues you (and you check "no"), when the medical officers demand the court records and review your state provided datatape (the arrest is on the tape and a copy is already in OKC so they will find it automatically, takes about 60 days), they will see you were so intoxicated that you could not even conclude you were at the wheel. A BAC even 4 hours later allows them to tell what it likely was at the scene. Then when you finally get an illegal pilot certificate, it will get revoked. Lie--->get revoked.

If you check yes, you get evaluated: If it's your one-and-only they might allow certification after an SAP evalaution- but that's the only way to see. If your BAC was high enough, it will be a forensic psychiatrist's eval.

Who are you kidding. Get some help.
 
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The ticket is the ARREST. They don't need to handcuff you, read your rights (which by the way, despite the popular TV scenario is NOT required for arrests) and carry you off to jail. The mere charge is all it takes.
 
Unregistered said:
I know there has been alot of talk about about DUI's and arrests vs. convictions. I have read through them and im still trying to figure out my particular situation. I will make a long story short as possible. About 6 months ago I was in a car accident. All I can tell you (because I cannot recall the events) is that I told the police officer that I was not driving. I was transported to the hospital. After investigating the cop issued a ticket for DUI and careless driving but I did not sign it and he gave it to my dad. I was never "arrested". In other words, they did not read me my rights, did not put me in cuffs, did not take me to jail. I was released from the hospital into my families care. I hired a lawyer and he went to court for me because I wasnt properly served. The case was dismissed without prejudice, meaning the cop has 18 months (statute of limitations) to find me and serve me again which he has not, yet. A couple days ago I filled out and submitted the 8500 and selected no for that question. Because I was not arrested nor was I convicted. Well today I ran my background check trying to search something from 15 years ago when I was 12 (because it stopped me from buying a gun last year and I wanted to see what comes up) And yes I put that on the 8500 as well. However the incident I was looking for wasnt on there (juvenile) however it says that I was arrested for DUI. The date of the "arrest" is a month and a week after the date of offense. Which happens to be the same day of the arraignment that i did not attend and the same day my lawyer took me to get finger printed and photographed because it was court ordered. So, how do I go about this? I put 'no' on the 8500 because I wasnt, by definition, arrested but its on my background check. The 8500 has already been submitted but my physical appt isnt till next week. Any help would be appreciated.
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Forget about flying. Get into politics. You'll do well there.
 
Morne said:
...The cops around here have tried to shove DUIs down people's throats who were clearly below the limit and had not been driving sloppily. DUI has become the latest court/cop cash cow...
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ditto, but in this case (at face value) it seems like the police not only behaved reasonably, they also went the extra mile and brought in their dog to try to find another injured victim that they could not locate near the scene. Well done.
 
Signing a ticket is essentially agreeing that you dont need to be arrested, and that you agree to appear on your court date. Had you chosen not to sign your ticket you would have been arrested and booked.

Dismissal means nothing. Your citation is in the system and will always be there. Nothing is ever truly expunged when it comes to the government. You MUST disclose it. The FAA will determine if its relevant, not the submitter..

If you want to pursue a pilots license its going to be expensive for you, and not a sure-thing. If you are serious about it, then read some of the other threads here on the subject and what it will require. Its been spelled out numerous times in the past few years..
 
This one is dirt simple: Do you have an arrest record?

Run a criminal background check and see if you have been arrested. It does not matter if you think you have, what matters is what the public record reflects. That is what the FAA is going to rely upon.

If you have not been arrested, then you have not been arrested. If you have an arrest record - then you have - regardless of what you think. Now, if you can have the record expunged as not a valid arrest then you can check no.

Dave - he is not asking about the citation - a citation may or may not be an arrest. If you want to play lawyer you need to have stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
flyingron said:
The ticket is the ARREST. They don't need to handcuff you, read your rights (which by the way, despite the popular TV scenario is NOT required for arrests) and carry you off to jail. The mere charge is all it takes.
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we don't know that for certain Ron. We can assume so - but you know all about assuming when it comes to facts and the law . . .

Look everybody - the question is a simple one - was he arrested? What was he cited for?

The question is specific - and must be answered as it is drafted. "Have you been arrested for DUI?" Not "Have you received a citation for DUI," Not, "Have you been charged with DUI?" but, have you been arrested. We also need to know the rules of the state here concerning infractions - one rarely simply gets a infraction citation for DUI. If one is injured so badly that they are not arrested there is usually a procedure for a misdemeanor or felony charging thereafter . . .

I agree that this fact pattern speaks to issues and questions concerning drinking to blackout, binge, unconsciousness for unknown reason, and the dancing on the head of the pin, as doc notes with the inane half-answers to every question - sure sounds like the answers and questions of a guy with a drinking problem. I love the dodging the issue of who was driving - lying to the police is likewise indicia of being will to lie to the feds - so my personal opinion is that this guy is not entitled to any class medical certificate - but that is not based on anything than what I see.
 
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Doesn't matter. The date of the "arrest" is the date of his arraignment. That measn the data tape at FAA has it on it, never mind any ex post facto revision which will not be on it.

The rest is administrative law, and Joe you know the story there.

Best to come clean, get assessed, and stop dancing. When you get found out, under administrative authority you become a #1 target for revocation of everything. And not much the likes of Joe can do about it.

See, the system is based on "credible reports of behavior". A Girlfriend can make a report, and if that is received, they have to respond the same way-

SAP eval
DL record for the past 10 years.
If you self report you won't need the felony/misdemeanor FBI search
Labs
In the case of the authorities, the court papers including officer's description of your behavior.
Hospital record- in which case the FAA toxicologist will figure out what your BAC was at the scene.
In the case of the GF, it'll go directly to the demand for a psychiatry evaluation.

Joe, you're enabling this guy. Cut it out. The guy has an arraignment date on a datape in OKC. Who are you kidding?
 
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bbchien said:
Doesn't matter. The date of the "arrest" is the date of his arraignment. That measn the data tape at FAA has it on it, never mind any ex post facto revision which will not be on it.

The rest is administrative law, and Joe you know the story there.

Best to come clean, get assessed, and stop dancing.
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Bruce, first offence is there even a need to dance ? It's all fixable with the right attitude and some effort, right ?
 
JHW said:
Bruce, first offence is there even a need to dance ? It's all fixable with the right attitude and some effort, right ?
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Generally correct though if the BAC at the scene was over 0.20, it might not be. And from a good blood value 4 hours afer, we can pretty well tell.
 
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comanchepilot said:
we don't know that for certain Ron. We can assume so - but you know all about assuming when it comes to facts and the law . . .

Look everybody - the question is a simple one - was he arrested? What was he cited for?

The question is specific - and must be answered as it is drafted. "Have you been arrested for DUI?" Not "Have you received a citation for DUI," Not, "Have you been charged with DUI?" but, have you been arrested. We also need to know the rules of the state here concerning infractions - one rarely simply gets a infraction citation for DUI. If one is injured so badly that they are not arrested there is usually a procedure for a misdemeanor or felony charging thereafter . . .

I agree that this fact pattern speaks to issues and questions concerning drinking to blackout, binge, unconsciousness for unknown reason, and the dancing on the head of the pin, as doc notes with the inane half-answers to every question - sure sounds like the answers and questions of a guy with a drinking problem. I love the dodging the issue of who was driving - lying to the police is likewise indicia of being will to lie to the feds - so my personal opinion is that this guy is not entitled to any class medical certificate - but that is not based on anything than what I see.
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Well today I ran my background check trying to search something from 15 years ago when I was 12 (because it stopped me from buying a gun last year and I wanted to see what comes up) And yes I put that on the 8500 as well. However the incident I was looking for wasnt on there (juvenile) however it says that I was arrested for DUI.
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Did you miss this?
 
The reason why I came on here was to ask for advice. Not for for anyone to to come on here and automatically asses my mental abilities and patterns. Because FYI, I dont drink that much. I already had an alcohol assessment done after the incident as required by my job and there were no red flags.

I DID NOT sign a ticket, nor was one given to me, it was given to my family.

Definition of arrest: Seize (someone) by legal authority and take into custody.

That did not happen. Yes, the FAA may have the datatape, but of what? At no time was I in a courtroom or police station. The only place I visited was my lawyers office and the fingerprinting building.
 
QUOTE=Unregistered;1117891] The only place I visited was my lawyers office and the fingerprinting building.[/QUOTE]

As per the date of arrest
 
This smells. I destroyed my wonderful convertible last summer. I can't remember the actual crash, but I can remember the events leading up to it, and can certainly remember who was driving, me. If the OP's memories of the event are that bad, he was either wasted way too far out of his mind or had some sort of head trauma. Either precludes flying an airplane.

Sorry dude, I know it isn't what you wanted to hear. But you put things up, you get what you get.
 
Unregistered said:
The reason why I came on here was to ask for advice. Not for for anyone to to come on here and automatically asses my mental abilities and patterns. Because FYI, I dont drink that much. I already had an alcohol assessment done after the incident as required by my job and there were no red flags.
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You don't come across as someone who has the right attitude about the whole situation. If you are seriously unsure who was driving the car that they found wrecked, with you in it, you probably don't have the analytical skills necessary to pilot an aircraft.

I'm sure you don't drink much, but with what you described, I can't imagine why you'd drink at all if it causes you to black out.

If you want free advice without anyone judging you, go see a member of the clergy.


Unregistered said:
That did not happen. Yes, the FAA may have the datatape, but of what? At no time was I in a courtroom or police station. The only place I visited was my lawyers office and the fingerprinting building.
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Did you ever wonder why they wanted your fingerprints?
 
comanchepilot said:
we don't know that for certain Ron. We can assume so - but you know all about assuming when it comes to facts and the law . . .

Look everybody - the question is a simple one - was he arrested? What was he cited for?

The question is specific - and must be answered as it is drafted. "Have you been arrested for DUI?" Not "Have you received a citation for DUI," Not, "Have you been charged with DUI?" but, have you been arrested. We also need to know the rules of the state here concerning infractions - one rarely simply gets a infraction citation for DUI. If one is injured so badly that they are not arrested there is usually a procedure for a misdemeanor or felony charging thereafter . . .

I agree that this fact pattern speaks to issues and questions concerning drinking to blackout, binge, unconsciousness for unknown reason, and the dancing on the head of the pin, as doc notes with the inane half-answers to every question - sure sounds like the answers and questions of a guy with a drinking problem. I love the dodging the issue of who was driving - lying to the police is likewise indicia of being will to lie to the feds - so my personal opinion is that this guy is not entitled to any class medical certificate - but that is not based on anything than what I see.
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Some states statutorily define a misdemeanor citation or summons as an "arrest." Tennessee being one. But as others have said I don't think the FAA is in favor of one packing angels on the head of a pin regardless of what state you are in.
 
Unregistered said:
The reason why I came on here was to ask for advice. Not for for anyone to to come on here and automatically asses my mental abilities and patterns. Because FYI, I dont drink that much. I already had an alcohol assessment done after the incident as required by my job and there were no red flags.

I DID NOT sign a ticket, nor was one given to me, it was given to my family.

Definition of arrest: Seize (someone) by legal authority and take into custody.

That did not happen. Yes, the FAA may have the datatape, but of what? At no time was I in a courtroom or police station. The only place I visited was my lawyers office and the fingerprinting building.
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Tell us the state you were in and if you want free advice someone might tell you more. That you didn't sign it is your weakest argument. That the officer was being more than accomodating is not likely to give you some affirmative defense that you weren't arrested in the eyes of the law or the FAA.
 
Maybe you were so drunk you don't remember spending the night in jail?

Dr. Bruce gave you all the advice you need. Come clean and face the consequences. Take some responsibility for your actions.
 
OK, so unreg can go to whatever department incorrectly listed his 'charges' as an arrest and get it corrected. In the meantime, the FAA pulls his medical. Here's how the hearing will go:

Unreg: I'd like my medical back.
FAA: But you were arrested for DUI.
Unreg: No, I wasn't arrested. That was a clerical error.
FAA: OK, tell us what happened.
Unreg: Um... I'd rather not.
FAA: OK, thank you for coming in today.
Unreg: Ummm.... Can I have my medical back?
FAA: No.
 
EppyGA said:
Did you miss this?
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I must have -

Then you have to report it. You have been arrested.

Doc, as I said - no enabling - I said there are all sorts of warning flags here.

Hey Unreg: now you know - and you have to answer Yes. And self-report if you have a medical [I'm not going back and reading all of it again]

And now answer some direct questions:

1. Were you driving?
2. Why did you lie you the police? You know you have a right to remain silent, correct?
3. Did you black out from drinking and don't remember driving?
4. Did you intend to mislead us as to what happened with the half facts and half truths?
5. Were you drinking and driving?
6. What was your BAC at the time of the hospital test 4 hours later?
7. Any other alcohol incidents? kicked out of bars, fights, restraining orders etc?
8. How much had you to drink before the accident?
9. Where did you consume alcohol?
10. did you pay cash or credit card?
11. do you have an alcohol tab at a bar somewhere?
12. what is your favorite alcoholic beverage?
13. How often do you buy alcohol: a-in a store, b-in a bar - c-in a restaurant?
14. How did your family get to the scene of the accident?


You thnk thats uncomfortable to answer in public? I have not yet even begun the cross-examination yet.
 
comanchepilot said:
And now answer some direct questions:

12. what is your favorite alcoholic beverage?
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I think I understand the other questions, but what's the significance of this one - i assume he's not disputing he drinks, so what's the value of this question?
Is even having a favourite one a bad sign? Is one reply better or worse than another?


(not the original unreg. - sorry, can't log in from here.)
 
Yeah, I don't think we're going to be hearing from the OP again...
 
Unregistered said:
The reason why I came on here was to ask for advice. Not for for anyone to to come on here and automatically asses my mental abilities and patterns. Because FYI, I dont drink that much. I already had an alcohol assessment done after the incident as required by my job and there were no red flags.

I DID NOT sign a ticket, nor was one given to me, it was given to my family.

Definition of arrest: Seize (someone) by legal authority and take into custody.

That did not happen. Yes, the FAA may have the datatape, but of what? At no time was I in a courtroom or police station. The only place I visited was my lawyers office and the fingerprinting building.
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Keep in mind the FAA is not interested in legalities as much as they are in medical relevance.
 
Sounds almost like what happened to Randy Babbit, though no accident, because the cops stopped him before he caused one. He got off did he not?
 
Okay we'll like I've tried to explain, I do not recall many of the events that night. Therefore I do not know whether or not I was driving. Like I said, the evidence points to me and I have already accepted that. I do not know what my bac was, all I know is it was a blood draw, no breathalyzer was administered. I don't even know if the blood was turned in because I still have a drivers license. The hospitals results are not considered reliable and cannot be used in court anyway. Also considering this is an anonymous forum, why would I feel the need to give half lies/half truths as you put it? The police officer said I could not sign the ticket due to my injuries however, I was able to sign all the hospital consent an release forms.

But I can see that most people in here are more judgemental and criticizing (which is somewhat expected) than actually useful and helpful. Only a few said anything related to my bottom line question. So to those few, thanks for the info but I'm going to leave it at this and seek help from more credible sources.
 
If I remember correctly the first step in getting treatment for an alcoholic is admitting you are an alcoholic and have a problem. Until the OP can cross that threshhold the problem will remain, and hopefully his next accident will not hurt someone else. I think if the OP reads between the lines of all the post here there is a common theme. Everyone here despite their sarcasm, and criticism(get used to it) is saying that you have a problem with alcohol that you are not admitting to. You may not believe it but you got into a car accident, and the accident was a result of you driving drunk. Technicalties aside, you need to find help to resolve the issues you have. Take this as a wake up call and smell the roses. Seek professional help from a alcohol counselor. Solve that issue and then think about flying. Right now you should not be thinking about whether you can pass your physical, you cannot unless you lie, and that will come and harm you even worse. To paraphrase a old commercial it is not nice to fool the FAA. The do not take it lightly, and will make anything the court for you alcohol offense will do to you look like a walk in the park.
 
Unregistered said:
But I can see that most people in here are more judgemental and criticizing (which is somewhat expected) than actually useful and helpful. Only a few said anything related to my bottom line question. So to those few, thanks for the info but I'm going to leave it at this and seek help from more credible sources.
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You'll not find a more credible source than Bruce C. If need be, ignore everyone else and believe him.
 
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