DUI/definition of arrest

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douglas393 said:
If I remember correctly the first step in getting treatment for an alcoholic is admitting you are an alcoholic and have a problem. Until the OP can cross that threshhold the problem will remain, and hopefully his next accident will not hurt someone else. I think if the OP reads between the lines of all the post here there is a common theme. Everyone here despite their sarcasm, and criticism(get used to it) is saying that you have a problem with alcohol that you are not admitting to. You may not believe it but you got into a car accident, and the accident was a result of you driving drunk. Technicalties aside, you need to find help to resolve the issues you have. Take this as a wake up call and smell the roses. Seek professional help from a alcohol counselor. Solve that issue and then think about flying. Right now you should not be thinking about whether you can pass your physical, you cannot unless you lie, and that will come and harm you even worse. To paraphrase a old commercial it is not nice to fool the FAA. The do not take it lightly, and will make anything the court for you alcohol offense will do to you look like a walk in the park.
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You need to read more before you comment. One freak accident does not constitute a problem. I can count on my hands how many time I drink per year. Like I said before, I already had to undergo an alcohol eval as per job requirements after the accident. There were no red flags.
 
OP the reality is your story reads like crap. Reading it and figuring the best possible light, still makes you look bad. Quite bad.
 
Unregistered said:
You need to read more before you comment. One freak accident does not constitute a problem. I can count on my hands how many time I drink per year. Like I said before, I already had to undergo an alcohol eval as per job requirements after the accident. There were no red flags.
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Then how do you account for your lack of memory sans major head trauma? But yeah, if you don't like what you get just read Bruce's stuff and do whatever he says. He hobnobs with the guys who write the rules and wrote some himself.
 
steingar said:
Then how do you account for your lack of memory sans major head trauma? But yeah, if you don't like what you get just read Bruce's stuff and do whatever he says. He hobnobs with the guys who write the rules and wrote some himself.
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Considering after a car accident it's pretty much required for the hospital to do all the checks... Internal bleeding, head injuries, etc. I'm pretty sure I would know if I had a major head injury/TBI. And moreover probably would have mentioned it.
 
So the hospital checked you for everything and ran tests but were not able to determine if you had ETOH onboard? Where you alone the entire night or were you abducted by aliens from your nice warm bed and planted you in the middle of a field?

You don't have to explain it to us but you will have to explain it to the FAA, so your story better at least be plausible.
 
Unreg. (different one) said:
I think I understand the other questions, but what's the significance of this one - i assume he's not disputing he drinks, so what's the value of this question?
Is even having a favourite one a bad sign? Is one reply better or worse than another?


(not the original unreg. - sorry, can't log in from here.)
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how did that come about?
was it once or did you develop the favorite over time?
how many did you drinik?
how many of them do you drink a week?
is it something you drink every day?
why is it your favorite?
distinguished from what?

See where it goes? There are no good answers . . .
 
Unreg said:
...I'm going to leave it at this and seek help from more credible sources.
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If I may, allow me to recommend a very credible source.

Call 309-689-5242, and ask for Doc Bruce. Down to earth, straight shooter, will tell you like it is on what you need to go gather up for the file to present to OKC. While at the time, you might not like or want to hear what he's saying, it is the correct information if you wish to "become whole" with the FAA again. Pay his fee, do as instructed, and then get busy.

There are very few others in the FAA Medical biz that are as knowledgeable, or as accessible.
 
Old Geek said:
You'll not find a more credible source than Bruce C. If need be, ignore everyone else and believe him.
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True dat = ignore me too.

But you asked about 'half truths' and you seem to not know what your medical condition was when you went to the hospital after the accident. Notice I did not say 'your' accident because you will not admit to it.

you mean they discharged you with no one ever talking to you about your condition, injuries, treatment - and never told you about a BAC?

Did they do a tox screen? Seems like a pretty common test after someone appears after an MVA denying they ever drove the car. This might help your case actually, since if you had no knowledge of doing anything other than drinking, and a hair test shows no other drugs while the tox screen shows some drug that would affect cognition and memory - then you have an argument you were drugged against your will.

It is common for humans to pretend there is no problem and give a half answer to a question. You still have not answered the simple question, asked by three different people: were you drinking and driving? Or perhaps better put - 4 hours later - what was your BAC - reliable or not? People often give conclusions instead of answers because the facts or the answer makes them look bad. . . .
 
Unregistered said:
Yes, the FAA may have the datatape, but of what? At no time was I in a courtroom or police station. The only place I visited was my lawyers office and the fingerprinting building.
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It will be coded as an arrest.

You may stop dancing now and seek some help about the alcohol.
Get a copy of your hospital record, the court proceedings (which will contain the officer's description of your behavior at the encouter. You will need them both.

You have a problem. It's not the one you think, though.
 
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Bruce has spoken, and the OP should notice that he's agreeing with most everyone. You can't just say "I wound up in a field with no memory of how I got there" without raising alarm bells in anyone more responsible than a 4 year old. And it would have to be a gullible 4 year old at that.

Oh well, I suspect our OP will go and do whatever he likes and ignore everyone who says otherwise. Gotta love folks who ask for advice and then argue. The one bright spot in all this is none of us will have to share our sky with him.
 
comanchepilot said:
True dat = ignore me too.

But you asked about 'half truths' and you seem to not know what your medical condition was when you went to the hospital after the accident. Notice I did not say 'your' accident because you will not admit to it.

you mean they discharged you with no one ever talking to you about your condition, injuries, treatment - and never told you about a BAC?

Did they do a tox screen? Seems like a pretty common test after someone appears after an MVA denying they ever drove the car. This might help your case actually, since if you had no knowledge of doing anything other than drinking, and a hair test shows no other drugs while the tox screen shows some drug that would affect cognition and memory - then you have an argument you were drugged against your will.

It is common for humans to pretend there is no problem and give a half answer to a question. You still have not answered the simple question, asked by three different people: were you drinking and driving? Or perhaps better put - 4 hours later - what was your BAC - reliable or not? People often give conclusions instead of answers because the facts or the answer makes them look bad. . . .
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Again, I will not say whether or not I was in fact driving because I in fact do not know. I do not recall. And no, no one told me what my BAC was, but it safe to assume that it was high seeing a I don't recall the events and the only injury I had was my arm.
 
bbchien said:
It will be coded as an arrest.

You may stop dancing now and seek some help about the alcohol.
Get a copy of your hospital record, the court proceedings (which will contain the officer's description of your behavior at the encouter. You will need them both.

You have a problem. It's not the one you think, though.
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How many time do I have to explain this? A one time freak accident does not constitute a problem, nor a pattern. A week long alcohol evaluation was conducted at a mental treatment facility that concluded there is no alcohol problem. But if course your opinions will trump what has already been looked at an concluded.
 
Unregistered said:
How many time do I have to explain this? A one time freak accident does not constitute a problem, nor a pattern. A week long alcohol evaluation was conducted at a mental treatment facility that concluded there is no alcohol problem. But if course your opinions will trump what has already been looked at an concluded.
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Look - so far as the FAA is concerned you were arrested for DUI. Period. They will not care about your explanation around the arrest.

I imagine, from what Doc Chien as said before, that you shall need:

1. Arrest report - if one exists
2. Court record - the extent one exists.
3. Driving Record - show other DUI arrests or convictions or actions
4. Your hospital record - and if it shows an unknown LOC you will have other issues to address
5. The substance abuse evaluation report.

There are other pieces of paper the FAA will need - but that is a good start.

You might to check:

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...sh/ash_programs/investigations/airmen_duidwi/

Assume you have been arrested. Others have advised you to contact Doc Chien - I do as well. Be prepared to answer ALL of the questions I proposed above and more related to your medical and psychological condition.

If you lie - you will eventually be caught. It will not be pleasant.
 
Unregistered said:
How many time do I have to explain this? A one time freak accident does not constitute a problem, nor a pattern. A week long alcohol evaluation was conducted at a mental treatment facility that concluded there is no alcohol problem. But if course your opinions will trump what has already been looked at an concluded.
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Because we aren't idiots. Allow me to repeat, no one "wind up" in a field with no memory of how they got there unless

a) they're lying
b) they were abducted by aliens
c) they have serious head trauma
d) they have serious substance abuse problems
e) they have serious mental health problems

Put another way, do you think a leap off a 1000 foot tall cliff would not constitute a problem if it only happened once?

Enough, I'm done feeding trolls.
 
OK, you were arrested. Report it that way. The date of the "arrest" in your record is probably the date your lawyer went to court. You got fingerprinted and photographed, you got arrested.

Let the application expire and try again.
 
TMetzinger said:
OK, you were arrested. Report it that way. The date of the "arrest" in your record is probably the date your lawyer went to court. You got fingerprinted and photographed, you got arrested.

Let the application expire and try again.
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Just curious, I got fingerprinted and photographed when I joined the military, does that mean I was arrested? Makes no sense.

(Not the OP)
 
Unregistered said:
I don't even know if the blood was turned in because I still have a drivers license. The hospitals results are not considered reliable and cannot be used in court anyway.
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Whether or not they can be used in court doesn't matter. The FAA wants to know your BAC to know what your tolerance level might be. If you had a .2 and were driving home, that indicates that you have a high tolerance to alcohol. If you had a .1 and were so drunk that you blacked out, crashed your car, and have no memory of the event, it indicates that you might not have a high tolerance to alcohol. Being honest can help you.

The same goes for the definition of "arrest." An arrest is a situation where an officer has detained you, and you are not free to choose to leave. Maybe that happened, maybe it didn't (as you said, you don't remember). But what's important is that it says "arrest" on your record. That's what the FAA sees.
 
Unregistered said:
How many time do I have to explain this? A one time freak accident does not constitute a problem, nor a pattern. A week long alcohol evaluation was conducted at a mental treatment facility that concluded there is no alcohol problem. But if course your opinions will trump what has already been looked at an concluded.
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You may not think you have a problem, but you do. Whether or not you are an alcoholic I do not know. However, you are in denial, and you are choosing to ignore the facts. It is rare on this board to have so many posters say the same thing(discussion and discourse and disagreement is a fine art on this board), but we are all seeing the same thing. You are trying to spin your accident in a positive light and that is human nature, but I would suggest you get help before you either hurt yourself or someone else. Maybe Dr. Chien will disagree, but if you use the attitude with the FAA that you are using here the only way you will be flying is as a passenger. Do yourself a favor, and before embarking on flying get professional help.
 
douglas393 said:
You may not think you have a problem, but you do. Whether or not you are an alcoholic I do not know. However, you are in denial, and you are choosing to ignore the facts. It is rare on this board to have so many posters say the same thing(discussion and discourse and disagreement is a fine art on this board), but we are all seeing the same thing. You are trying to spin your accident in a positive light and that is human nature, but I would suggest you get help before you either hurt yourself or someone else. Maybe Dr. Chien will disagree, but if you use the attitude with the FAA that you are using here the only way you will be flying is as a passenger. Do yourself a favor, and before embarking on flying get professional help.
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Unregistered said:
A week long alcohol evaluation was conducted at a mental treatment facility that concluded there is no alcohol problem.
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Wow....
 
Unregistered said:
Wow....
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I did not say you have an alcohol problem, I said I do not know. However, you have been given some good advice in this thread and instead of taking it you have chose to argue that the posters do not know what they are talking about. You have a problem, you need help, get it!
 
momalley said:
maybe someone slipped him a roofie?
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For the sake of the OP, I hope that was the case.

A one time freak accident does not constitute a problem, nor a pattern.
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Missing memory of how you got in the car is a really, really bad sign if it isn't explained by head trauma. Yes, if you get in a car *once* in that condition, you have a very serious problem. I don't care if you never did that before in your life. Aviation doesn't have room for that kind of lack of personal control.

And if you hang out around people who will roofie you, you need to get with a different crowd, asap.
 
Unregistered said:
A week long alcohol evaluation was conducted at a mental treatment facility that concluded there is no alcohol problem.
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Then you will want to bring the documentation of that along with your arrest report, etc. as previously enumerated.
 
It occurs to me that the OP has one further problem: That is he will have to declare the hospitalization. Every AME is going to ask about what it related to; as it relates to a car wreck, he will inquire further.

The diagnosis codes (seeing as how they ordered a blood alcohol) will clearly have an intoxication code in them. Remember, FAA can get the codes.

You lose either way by not declaring....
 
To the OP....

You have poked the bear. The bear has responded. Repeated poking will just result in the same response, but with increased irritation.

Listen to the response and take the action proscribed. Borrowing from Joe, you shall need:
  1. Arrest report - if one exists
  2. Court record - the extent one exists.
  3. Driving Record - show other DUI arrests or convictions or actions (or lack of same)
  4. Your hospital record - and if it shows an unknown LOC you will have other issues to address. Make a point to find out definitively about the blood draw (why they did it, what tests were run, what did the lab say).
  5. The substance abuse evaluation report.
There are other pieces of paper the FAA will need - but that is a good start.

Repeated poking will not change the response.
 

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bbchien said:
It occurs to me that the OP has one further problem: That is he will have to declare the hospitalization. Every AME is going to ask about what it related to; as it relates to a car wreck, he will inquire further.

The diagnosis codes (seeing as how they ordered a blood alcohol) will clearly have an intoxication code in them. Remember, FAA can get the codes.

You lose either way by not declaring....
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Bruce; you've told us that by not blowing on the breathalyzer that the FAA takes the stand your BAC is 0.15 or more.

Does the same thing apply to this blood draw if the documented BAC cannot be obtained?
 
OK, so we've already burned the guy at the stake, and have determined that he is a horrible, horrible person and should probably be castrated so he's not allowed to reproduce, but just out of curiosity - what if someone *did* slip him something that caused him to not remember what transpired that evening? (disgruntled ex has a friend that works at a restaurant, he actually only had one beer, and the waitress slipped him something, it has and does happen, so...)

How does the FAA look at that?
 
EdFred said:
OK, so we've already burned the guy at the stake, and have determined that he is a horrible, horrible person and should probably be castrated so he's not allowed to reproduce, but just out of curiosity - what if someone *did* slip him something that caused him to not remember what transpired that evening? (disgruntled ex has a friend that works at a restaurant, he actually only had one beer, and the waitress slipped him something, it has and does happen, so...)

How does the FAA look at that?
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Something that shows up on a tox screen?
 
Morne said:
Something that shows up on a tox screen?
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I'm sure it probably would, but if you didn't knowingly ingest something, and were not out binge drinking, how is the FAA going to look at it?
 
EdFred said:
I'm sure it probably would, but if you didn't knowingly ingest something, and were not out binge drinking, how is the FAA going to look at it?
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I'm guessing they would look at it same as someone saying, I didn't do cocaine to get high I just liked the way it smelled.:lol:
 
EdFred said:
OK, so we've already burned the guy at the stake, and have determined that he is a horrible, horrible person and should probably be castrated so he's not allowed to reproduce, but just out of curiosity - what if someone *did* slip him something that caused him to not remember what transpired that evening? (disgruntled ex has a friend that works at a restaurant, he actually only had one beer, and the waitress slipped him something, it has and does happen, so...)

How does the FAA look at that?
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They will subpoenae the hospital record and find it....
 
EdFred said:
I'm sure it probably would, but if you didn't knowingly ingest something, and were not out binge drinking, how is the FAA going to look at it?
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I would suspect the FAA would only take a second look at it if you pursued a police investigation of who spiked your drink, if you had a tox screen that showed that could have happened.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
I would suspect the FAA would only take a second look at it if you pursued a police investigation of who spiked your drink, if you had a tox screen that showed that could have happened.
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Maybe not. If the hospital staff didn't find enough alcohol in the system, they will have run a secondary screen which, if they picked the correct one, can find any number of things.
 
Unregistered said:
Just curious, I got fingerprinted and photographed when I joined the military, does that mean I was arrested? Makes no sense.

(Not the OP)
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We're you ordered by a court to appear for fingerprinting and a mug shot? Im guessing no. Makes perfect sense.
 
Tony_Fletcher said:
We're you ordered by a court to appear for fingerprinting and a mug shot? Im guessing no. Makes perfect sense.
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The court can order fingerprints and photgraphs for any number of reasons. That alone does not mean he was arrested. Until you are detained, read your rights and officially booked, you have not been arrested. Saying that in some states a citation for a misdomeanor counts as an arrest (as in previous posts) is not valid. If you get a trespassing ticket for climbing on top of a school, that is a misdemeanor however you were not arrested.
 
Unregistered said:
The court can order fingerprints and photgraphs for any number of reasons. That alone does not mean he was arrested. Until you are detained, read your rights and officially booked, you have not been arrested. Saying that in some states a citation for a misdomeanor counts as an arrest (as in previous posts) is not valid. If you get a trespassing ticket for climbing on top of a school, that is a misdemeanor however you were not arrested.
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please name reasons a COURT would order booking at a plouce station other than an arrest warrant.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
 
Unregistered said:
The court can order fingerprints and photgraphs for any number of reasons. That alone does not mean he was arrested. Until you are detained, read your rights and officially booked, you have not been arrested. Saying that in some states a citation for a misdomeanor counts as an arrest (as in previous posts) is not valid. If you get a trespassing ticket for climbing on top of a school, that is a misdemeanor however you were not arrested.
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Mr. Simpson, this the most blatant case of fraudulent advertising since my suit against the film "The Never-Ending Story." — Lionel Hutz

Maybe you should take up the OP's case!
 

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Unregistered said:
T Until you are detained, read your rights and officially booked, you have not been arrested.
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BULLHOCKEY. First off, they only need advise you of your rights if they choose to question you while you are in custody. Being read your rights has no bearing on whether you are arrested or not.

Official "booking" is not an operative part of an arrest either.

The "catch and release" form of an arrest (stopping you and giving you a citation) is still an arrest. Being issued a summons by the court otherwise, with an order to appear, but not an order for law enforcement to preemptively detain you technically is not, but for all intents and purposes is the same.

Further, in many states, there's an immediate MVA on a DUI arrest (or however you want to weasel word the nature of the charge). This must be reported both under 18v and in the 60 day notice to the FAA.

As far as the NDR and other LEO databases go, the charges will appear the same whether you are arrested and charged, arrested, jailed, and charged, or just issued a judicial summons. You're going to have some 'splainin' to do to the FAA when they notice the omission on your application.
 
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