DTO Tower Controller and Pilot Argue On-the-Air

DJTorrente

DJTorrente

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Apologies if this has been raised -- the video is ~3 mo. old.

I think this exchange dragged on WAY too long over the air. I thought the pilot made some reasonable efforts to cut the exchange off. I would hope if I was a pilot in that situation, I'd have the presence of mind to simply say we'd be asking for a phone number to call after we were stopped and on the ground. Oh, and please mark/save the 'tapes'...

That said, "I Googled it..." :rolleyes: You googled it? When? While you're responsible for separating traffic among multiple aircraft in the pattern at a fairly busy period of a towered field operation? And unless Goggle was simply a shortcut to find a digital copy of 7110 -- and even so, see above -- spare me.
 
This is Brenda. She's in the tower at Denton and she needs to go.

She's a mean controller she's very rude to just about everybody she berates people and there's a massive flight school at that airport.

New pilots are already scared of ATC and she's not going to help she's going to create a situation where people don't want to speak up because they're afraid of her.

There are multiple petitions people have circulated around to try to get her removed but someone always says oh it's a contract tower she won't go anywhere. I don't know what that means.

If I hear her on the frequency I will go around the airspace instead of requesting to fly through it.

On Facebook people say NOTAM B is in effect at Denton. And some brilliant person set up an Instagram account that has all of her gems on it.
 

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SixPapaCharlie said:
There are multiple petitions people have circulated around to try to get her removed but someone always says oh it's a contract tower she won't go anywhere. I don't know what that means.
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Contract towers are run by corporations on behalf of the government so the controllers there are not federal employees. DTO is run by a company called RVA. Further complicating it, DTO controllers are members of the controllers union, NATCA - which is not the case at every contract tower. I believe the person in question is actually the union representative at DTO.
 
Her Google skills are worse than her ATC skills. Sounds like she’s well known there.

onemileatatime.com

Air Traffic Controller Argues Endlessly With Pilot

An argumentative air traffic controller in Denton, Texas, is getting some attention for how rudely she is interacting with pilots.
onemileatatime.com onemileatatime.com
 
Velocity173 said:
Her Google skills are worse than her ATC skills.
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When it comes to discussions like this, Google is the wrong pathway. I'd go to Pilot/Controller glossary first, if it's not in the FARs.

Ask any pilot, "What is a final approach?" . . . ;)
 
dbahn said:
When it comes to discussions like this, Google is the wrong pathway. I'd go to Pilot/Controller glossary first, if it's not in the FARs.

Ask any pilot, "What is a final approach?" . . . ;)
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That’s why it’s so ridiculous that she mentioned Google vs an official definition. In this case, the official definition has nothing to do with her “abeam the numbers” definition. There is no specific distance or point listed. Anything shorter than the distances or points in the AIM traffic pattern would suffice as a short approach.
 
I was actually thinking of taking a tower tour when I was at DTO back in October. Probably good thing I didn’t.
 
In her defense, I would venture to say that a lot of the interactions are probably well deserved and accumulative. We have a frequent photo mission north of Denton and it’s always amazing to see the volume of traffic and some of the stuff that happens there.
 
RyanShort1 said:
In her defense, I would venture to say that a lot of the interactions are probably well deserved and accumulative. We have a frequent photo mission north of Denton and it’s always amazing to see the volume of traffic and some of the stuff that happens there.
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I agree on this first point, but on the second point if the airspace is busy that's no time to have an on-air argument between a pilot and a controller. Save it for a phone call.
 
My very first post checkride flight was out of DTO.
She said 6PC you have a primary target at 12 o clock.

I asked "What altitude"
Her response was "What part of primary don't you understand?"
I hadn't heart that term before and still being a little nervous talking to ATC, I just shut up and didn't talk any more.

The problem is that she berates people but worse is she is wrong a lot and messes up a lot.
I sat in the runup area and listened to her call a Cessna a Cirrus 3 times Finally she corrected her self and said Cessna 123 at which point, he responded then she added: "I have tried to call you 3 times. When I call you you need to respond".

She's a pain in the ass and needs to go.
 
dbahn said:
I agree on this first point, but on the second point if the airspace is busy that's no time to have an on-air argument between a pilot and a controller. Save it for a phone call.
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Agreed on the phone call being generally more appropriate.
 
“Transmit only those messages necessary for air traffic control, or otherwise contributing to air safety.” Just another example of an un professional controller not knowing their job. Either issue a PD or keep your mouth shut. The frequency isn’t there for arguing about a perceived definition.
 
DJTorrente said:
"Possible controller deviation... standby to provide a telephone number to be called."
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Exactly. And when that PD gets investigated by the facility and the FSDO, it’ll be dismissed.
 
I had to go back twice and listen again. Turned the volume up a little because I could not believe what I heard. But yeah, she said it. I googled it. Another interesting thing is she said 'Airport Traffic Area.' Haven't heard that one in more than the 15 years she described about something else. I'd file an ASRS on this. It should catch someones attention at NASA, who will call someone at the FAA and say, you guys have a problem at Denton. That someone will call someone, either at the Regional Office or maybe directly to the FAA Facility overseeing Denton.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
My very first post checkride flight was out of DTO.
She said 6PC you have a primary target at 12 o clock.

I asked "What altitude"
Her response was "What part of primary don't you understand?"
I hadn't heart that term before and still being a little nervous talking to ATC, I just shut up and didn't talk any more.

The problem is that she berates people but worse is she is wrong a lot and messes up a lot.
I sat in the runup area and listened to her call a Cessna a Cirrus 3 times Finally she corrected her self and said Cessna 123 at which point, he responded then she added: "I have tried to call you 3 times. When I call you you need to respond".

She's a pain in the ass and needs to go.
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See my post #16. Spread the word.
 
I couldn’t even listen to the whole thing. Cringeworthy.
 
SixPapaCharlie, I have done a lot of flying in the vicinity of primary targets, and been a frequent primary target. The alternate term is Type And Altitude Unknown.

Rather than getting upset by an unfamiliar term, crank up the Mark 1, Mod 0 eyeball and make sure the airspace you intend to use is empty.

She may not even know what is producing the return, or see it. If you hit it, it is all on you, she did her best.

She does sound like a controller who should be at a Marine base, where the guys are used to such verbal abuse, and occasionally return it off post.........
 
geezer said:
SixPapaCharlie, I have done a lot of flying in the vicinity of primary targets, and been a frequent primary target. The alternate term is Type And Altitude Unknown.

Rather than getting upset by an unfamiliar term, crank up the Mark 1, Mod 0 eyeball and make sure the airspace you intend to use is empty.

She may not even know what is producing the return, or see it. If you hit it, it is all on you, she did her best.

She does sound like a controller who should be at a Marine base, where the guys are used to such verbal abuse, and occasionally return it off post.........
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Doesn’t sound like Bryan was upset by the term, only confused. And I can tell you this, as a former Marine controller, if I replied with a smart *** remark that she gave, I’d be suspended. Guaranteed.
 
Never heard of a short approach being the same as a power off 180??? Isn't that a standard approach, whether you pull the power or reduce power?

I know FAA training has changed from pulling the power beam the numbers, to reducing power, but aren't you still staying in gliding distance of the runway in the event of a power failure in either case? So either case is a "standard approach" isn't it?
 
Ah DTO. My discovery flight was there before it had a tower. Went to college there. Bought my Lance there. And had my closest chance at a midair there. Ah DTO.
 
Jesus why have that conversation over frequency...especially if they're busy. If I was 65c I'd tell her see you next Tuesday.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:

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After hearing other controllers from that page, how common is it for a controller to pull the tapes just to prove a pilot wrong? Pilot missed "fly runway heading". But he probably didn't read back correct. Instead of correcting read back...gonna pull tapes. Sounds toxic.
 
Racerx said:
After hearing other controllers from that page, how common is it for a controller to pull the tapes just to prove a pilot wrong? Pilot missed "fly runway heading". But he probably didn't read back correct. Instead of correcting read back...gonna pull tapes. Sounds toxic.
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The controller doesn’t pull the tapes but management does based on a reported incident / accident. It’s not an automatic thing though based on some random pilot who wants the tapes marked. Kinda like the old wive’s tale of pilots are told to ask for a controller’s operating initials. There’s no obligation for a controller to give their operating initials when asked.
 
Velocity173 said:
The controller doesn’t pull the tapes but management does based on a reported incident / accident. It’s not an automatic thing though based on some random pilot who wants the tapes marked. Kinda like the old wive’s tale of pilots are told to ask for a controller’s operating initials. There’s no obligation for a controller to give their operating initials when asked.
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There was another with the Google controller and she requested a pilots call sign because she "listened to the tapes" and he may have transposed a digit in his tail number in his initial call
 
Not agreeing with her 'style' but for whatever reason my occasional trips into DTO have always be typical, nothing special comms.
I have heard chirping from both instructors and controllers tho

My other observation is, that airport has a part of it's student population that struggle to be concise and understandable on frequency at times.
And attentive to radio calls
When your number 11 for departure the often slow pace of action ahead of you is......challenging
 
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geezer said:
SixPapaCharlie, I have done a lot of flying in the vicinity of primary targets, and been a frequent primary target. The alternate term is Type And Altitude Unknown.

Rather than getting upset by an unfamiliar term, crank up the Mark 1, Mod 0 eyeball and make sure the airspace you intend to use is empty.

She may not even know what is producing the return, or see it. If you hit it, it is all on you, she did her best.

She does sound like a controller who should be at a Marine base, where the guys are used to such verbal abuse, and occasionally return it off post.........
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Type and altitude unknown is not an alternate term. Calling the traffic as ‘primary target’ is no kind of authorized term. Although it’s unusual these days to have an airplane not ‘squawking altitude’ it does happen. So, ‘type and altitude unknown’ can happen on Secondary Radar returns as well as Primary ‘blips.’
 
After looking at that Instagram account for a while, I just want to fly down there and experience it myself. I haven't laughed that hard in a LONG time.
 
Amazing video of a controller who flaunts her unprofessionalism and ignorance as though they were virtues. Forgivable as a one-time event, but only as a one-time event.

Anyone privy to the post-landing conversation? Hopefully, it included her supervisor.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
...She said 6PC you have a primary target at 12 o clock.

I asked "What altitude"
Her response was "What part of primary don't you understand?"
I hadn't heart that term before and still being a little nervous talking to ATC, I just shut up and didn't talk any more.
Click to expand...
well, I googled it, actually. I googled 'primary target' and it says it's a 1989 drama movie where A team of Vietnam vets, who now work as mercenaries, faces off against their former wartime comrade turned warlord, who's kidnapped the wife of a US diplomat and is holding her in his base of operations somewhere in the jungles of Laos.
 
eman1200 said:
well, I googled it, actually. I googled 'primary target' and it says it's a 1989 drama movie where A team of Vietnam vets, who now work as mercenaries, faces off against their former wartime comrade turned warlord, who's kidnapped the wife of a US diplomat and is holding her in his base of operations somewhere in the jungles of Laos.
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Glad its not just me...30 years of flying, I've never heard the term "primary target" used.
 
Primary (radar) target is in the AIM. It’s depicted (ch5)and defined (PCG). Not worth giving a smart *** comment to a pilot over the air though.
 
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