DPEs are people too

Salty

Salty

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Salty
Nothing more unpleasant than disagreeing with a DPE, although in this case it was just a friendly discussion not a check ride.

So I was looking at gyros and a guy wanders up and we were talking about the requirements to add the private rating to a ASEL private. He said something about needing a little night training, and I interjected that I thought night was not needed to do the add on. That’s when I found out he was a gyro plane DPE and “he should know”.

I went back and checked the PTS, and it sure looks like I was right to me. So, I’m not looking to “gotcha” the guy, I’ll never even see him again, but I want to know if I’m misunderstanding something. Is this the correct document and am I interpreting it correctly?

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/FAA-S-8081-15a.pdf

“Night operations” is section X

B1BA673F-C4C2-456D-8F00-A11CBB3E574F.jpeg
 
You would be adding a category rating, so must comply with 61.63(b), which says you must have all of the applicable aeronautical experience for such a rating. 61.109(d)(2) requires 3 hours of night flight training for a private pilot certificate with a gyroplane rating. The PTS describes the tasks to be performed on the checkride. Even if Task X was required, it is a knowledge task, it does not actually require you to fly at night, and I am not aware of any checkride that does. So not sure why you think the PTS would be relevant for your question.
 
dmspilot said:
You would be adding a category rating, so must comply with 61.63(b), which says you must have all of the applicable aeronautical experience for such a rating. 61.109(d)(2) requires 3 hours of night flight training for a private pilot certificate with a gyroplane rating. The PTS describes the tasks to be performed on the checkride. Even if Task X was required, it is a knowledge task, it does not actually require you to fly at night, and I am not aware of any checkride that does. So not sure why you think the PTS would be relevant for your question.
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You’re right, I was conflating training with testing. And his remark was in context of training. Thanks! In my head, the conversation was about testing, but he was clearly thinking about training based on the context of what he was saying.
 
61.109 read it a weep, the DE was correct.

If you already had a Helicopter rating, 61.63(c) applies and you would not need Gyro night time (or any of the other requirements), just the instructor sign off for the exam.

For a gyroplane rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with rotorcraft category and gyroplane class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in § 61.107(b)(4) of this part, and the training must include at least -

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a gyroplane;

(2) Except as provided in § 61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight training in a gyroplane that includes -

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training with an authorized instructor in a gyroplane in preparation for the practical test, which must have been performed within the preceding 2 calendar months from the month of the test; and

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a gyroplane, consisting of at least -

(i) 3 hours of cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross country flight of 100 nautical miles total distance, with landings at three points, and one segment of the flight being a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
 
The sport pilot add-on is easy to get and gets you good experience. After you get this, you can do pretty much anything you want with the gyro, except fly at night. Gyros only carry two people, and aren't very fast, so those SP limitations don't mean much. I got the SP add-on, and may get the private sometime in the future. It's low on the priority list though.
 
Salty said:
You’re right, I was conflating training with testing. And his remark was in context of training. Thanks! In my head, the conversation was about testing, but he was clearly thinking about training based on the context of what he was saying.
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DPE tend to think about experience requirement a lot. My Local DPE was just complaining to me about how many applicants are showing up for checkrides that don't actually have the proper experience requirements logged. He wastes a lot of time showing up for checkrides and then having to reschedule.
Typical issues are for PP Airplane are ...
Not logging Full Stop landings
Not Logging Night Takeoffs
Cross countries that don't meet the landing at more than 50nm from the original point of departure.
3+ hour cross countries that log traveling just over 50+ miles and 15 takeoffs and landings? How much of that was really cross country time?

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
DPE tend to think about experience requirement a lot. My Local DPE was just complaining to me about how many applicants are showing up for checkrides that don't actually have the proper experience requirements logged. He wastes a lot of time showing up for checkrides and then having to reschedule.
Typical issues are for PP Airplane are ...
Not logging Full Stop landings
Not Logging Night Takeoffs
Cross countries that don't meet the landing at more than 50nm from the original point of departure.
3+ hour cross countries that log traveling just over 50+ miles and 15 takeoffs and landings? How much of that was really cross country time?

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...
A little off topic, but I always find it fascinating that most students don't seem to want to do much CC flying. I took long solos once I was ready and having to study weather and airspace across a couple of hundred miles was hugely beneficial to doing it in "real life" as a private pilot.
 
MIFlyer said:
A little off topic, but I always find it fascinating that most students don't seem to want to do much CC flying. I took long solos once I was ready and having to study weather and airspace across a couple of hundred miles was hugely beneficial to doing it in "real life" as a private pilot.
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All but 1 hr of my pre-private solo time was cross country time. 0.5 for solo, and another 0.5 doing stalls.
 
MIFlyer said:
A little off topic, but I always find it fascinating that most students don't seem to want to do much CC flying. I took long solos once I was ready and having to study weather and airspace across a couple of hundred miles was hugely beneficial to doing it in "real life" as a private pilot.
Click to expand...

Bear in mind that a lot of flight training is given to people seeking certificates and ratings so they can get a job. The mindset and approach to training that these job seekers have often is a lot different than the people who are looking to do recreational flying. Some schools and instructors may also place restrictions on solo activities as well.
 
EdFred said:
All but 1 hr of my pre-private solo time was cross country time. 0.5 for solo, and another 0.5 doing stalls.
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So your first solo was XC? Or stalls? Or only a couple of patterns?

When I instructed, first and second solo were after I flew with the student IMMEDIATELY before the solo and pattern only. Then a couple of where they did it all solo. Then we started working on XC.
 
Pinecone said:
So your first solo was XC? Or stalls? Or only a couple of patterns?

When I instructed, first and second solo were after I flew with the student IMMEDIATELY before the solo and pattern only. Then a couple of where they did it all solo. Then we started working on XC.
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I don't see where he suggested his first solo was cross country. But @EdFred was very advanced.
 
MonkeyClaw said:
The sport pilot add-on is easy to get and gets you good experience. After you get this, you can do pretty much anything you want with the gyro, except fly at night. Gyros only carry two people, and aren't very fast, so those SP limitations don't mean much. I got the SP add-on, and may get the private sometime in the future. It's low on the priority list though.
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I wonder if sp vs private makes much difference to insurance.
 
Pinecone said:
So your first solo was XC? Or stalls? Or only a couple of patterns?

When I instructed, first and second solo were after I flew with the student IMMEDIATELY before the solo and pattern only. Then a couple of where they did it all solo. Then we started working on XC.
Click to expand...

First solo was 3 trips in the pattern. Second solo was XC, 3rd solo was XC, then some stalls and maneuvers solo, then another solo XC and my aero experience for solo was done.

Edit:
I had 3 solo flights that werent XC.

Solo, solo, solo, (day, night dual XC) then XC.
 
Last edited:
EdFred said:
First solo was 3 trips in the pattern. Second solo was XC, 3rd solo was XC, then some stalls and maneuvers solo, then another solo XC and my aero experience for solo was done.

Edit:
I had 3 solo flights that werent XC.

Solo, solo, solo, (day, night dual XC) then XC.
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Seems more common.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Seems more common.
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Also my 20 year memories are slipping. but looking at my log book this morning I only took eight trips around the pattern by myself before I was signed off for my check ride
 
11:15 in my log for my first solo, 45 minutes of T&L's.

Next flight was cross country procedures, a 2 hour lesson to several airports.

Local at our airport was not the focus of T&L from then on, I flew to various local airports, one landing each, and went on. Paused enroute for stall practice, to actual break. Many modern pilots would try to call those flights cross country, I did not even log the many airports that I landed at.

Next dual was night cross country, 1:15, and I started my solo cross countries, 3, totaling 9 hours and 10 minutes, landing in 3 states.

Dual radio and tower training, 3 hours, several towers and landings.

Solo airwork, including full stalls and spin recovery (Yes, spins were part of the requirements back then, preferred recovery at one full turn, wings level).

Dual, 2 PAR approaches to 10 feet, Instrument procedures for the pilot who finds himself beyond VFR conditions.

Flight check prep flight.

Flight check, passed. 41:50 in the log. And no tailwheel signoff needed, the first 4 planes that I flew were tailwheel.

At 64 hours, was checked out in a 172, and on the way to Florida, the purpose of the PPL, and short flights nearly disappeared from my log book.

80% of my logbook time is cross country. Real cross country.
 
mondtster said:
Bear in mind that a lot of flight training is given to people seeking certificates and ratings so they can get a job. The mindset and approach to training that these job seekers have often is a lot different than the people who are looking to do recreational flying. Some schools and instructors may also place restrictions on solo activities as well.
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I can understand that, the school I went to had a lot of career track folks, and the training was very high quality with a "buttoned up" strong safety and compliance culture.
 
brcase said:
DPE tend to think about experience requirement a lot. My Local DPE was just complaining to me about how many applicants are showing up for checkrides that don't actually have the proper experience requirements logged. He wastes a lot of time showing up for checkrides and then having to reschedule.
Typical issues are for PP Airplane are ...
Not logging Full Stop landings
Not Logging Night Takeoffs
Cross countries that don't meet the landing at more than 50nm from the original point of departure.
3+ hour cross countries that log traveling just over 50+ miles and 15 takeoffs and landings? How much of that was really cross country time?
Click to expand...

I was in a forum at Oshkosh and the DPE presenting noted exactly this. He had some great tips for those about to do a checkride, and it all seems VERY common sense, but sometimes that stuff isn't obvious until someone says it. A few of the things he noted:
  • Do your homework on the airplane. Get the logs. Tag the logs with stickies on any specifics you know the DPE is going to be looking for (VOR check, prop, 100 hour, etc). Be prepared to go through the ADs. Better yet, take 30-45 minutes with the mechanic to pour through the logs so you don't have to hunt him down during your time with the DPE
  • Do the same thing with your medical and any other paperwork associated with you as a pilot
  • Do the same thing with your logbook. Flag with a stickie any flights that specifically meet the requirements set forth by the CFRs (night experience, CC, etc).
  • Actually total up your logbook. The DPE presenting said that he is astounded by the number of people that show up and their logbooks are a mess. Missing signatures, hasn't been totaled up, etc. Going through that exercise BEFORE you meet with the DPE saves both of you time and grievance.
 
Steve Costello said:
I was in a forum at Oshkosh and the DPE presenting noted exactly this. He had some great tips for those about to do a checkride, and it all seems VERY common sense, but sometimes that stuff isn't obvious until someone says it. A few of the things he noted:
  • Do your homework on the airplane. Get the logs. Tag the logs with stickies on any specifics you know the DPE is going to be looking for (VOR check, prop, 100 hour, etc). Be prepared to go through the ADs. Better yet, take 30-45 minutes with the mechanic to pour through the logs so you don't have to hunt him down during your time with the DPE
  • Do the same thing with your medical and any other paperwork associated with you as a pilot
  • Do the same thing with your logbook. Flag with a stickie any flights that specifically meet the requirements set forth by the CFRs (night experience, CC, etc).
  • Actually total up your logbook. The DPE presenting said that he is astounded by the number of people that show up and their logbooks are a mess. Missing signatures, hasn't been totaled up, etc. Going through that exercise BEFORE you meet with the DPE saves both of you time and grievance.
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And if your instructor isn’t ensuring that you do this stuff already, complain.
 
MauleSkinner said:
And if your instructor isn’t ensuring that you do this stuff already, complain.
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Actually, that was another story he told. Student had a pretty good written test, but missed questions related to LAHSO. As always, test gave him the ACS standards to revisit. DPE reviewed the logbook, saw that the CFI had signed off on topical review, and the DPE simply asked, "So, tell me about LAHSO."

Guy had not a single clue what the DPE was talking about, not even after the DPE clarified what LAHSO stood for.

Needless to say, the DPE had a "little chat" with the CFI.
 
My disqualification rate for 2022 is hovering right around 10%. That is only the cases where I find a problem before the test begins. Does not include any issues found on preflight that prevent a flight and result in a discontinuance.

brcase said:
DPE tend to think about experience requirement a lot. My Local DPE was just complaining to me about how many applicants are showing up for checkrides that don't actually have the proper experience requirements logged. He wastes a lot of time showing up for checkrides and then having to reschedule.
Typical issues are for PP Airplane are ...
Not logging Full Stop landings
Not Logging Night Takeoffs
Cross countries that don't meet the landing at more than 50nm from the original point of departure.
3+ hour cross countries that log traveling just over 50+ miles and 15 takeoffs and landings? How much of that was really cross country time?

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...
 
MIFlyer said:
A little off topic, but I always find it fascinating that most students don't seem to want to do much CC flying. I took long solos once I was ready and having to study weather and airspace across a couple of hundred miles was hugely beneficial to doing it in "real life" as a private pilot.
Click to expand...
Nature probably. Most fledglings don't want to get to far from the nest.

The more adventurous an animal is, including humans the more likely it is to die young/early.

Experience on the other hand builds confidence and encourages us to stretch things out and spread our wings more as we advance.
 
Technically, night experience isn’t required, you’ll just get a restriction that says “Night Flying Prohibited” iaw the 61.110 exception.
 
bflynn said:
Technically, night experience isn’t required, you’ll just get a restriction that says “Night Flying Prohibited” iaw the 61.110 exception.
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Only in Alaska.
 
dmspilot said:
Only in Alaska.
Click to expand...

interesting structure of that rule. Paragraph a) calls out Alaska. Paragraph b) calls out Alaska. ParGraph c) does not. Give that a, b, and c are equal paragraphs and c) omits Alaska, my read is that it was intended to apply everywhere.

Possibly not the intent, but in law the words or absence of words are significant.
 
bflynn said:
interesting structure of that rule. Paragraph a) calls out Alaska. Paragraph b) calls out Alaska. ParGraph c) does not. Give that a, b, and c are equal paragraphs and c) omits Alaska, my read is that it was intended to apply everywhere.

Possibly not the intent, but in law the words or absence of words are significant.
Click to expand...

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8900_2_CHG_2.pdf

Section 8. Conduct a Private Pilot Certification, Including Additional Category/Class Ratings at the Private Pilot Certification Level

65. Limitations. a. Night Flying Limitations. In accordance with § 61.110, a person who receives flight training in and resides in the state of Alaska: (1) May be issued a pilot certificate with the limitation “NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED.” (2) Must comply with the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart within 12 calendar-months after the issuance of the pilot certificate.
 
So, another poorly worded regulation.
 
Doc Holliday said:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8900_2_CHG_2.pdf

Section 8. Conduct a Private Pilot Certification, Including Additional Category/Class Ratings at the Private Pilot Certification Level

65. Limitations. a. Night Flying Limitations. In accordance with § 61.110, a person who receives flight training in and resides in the state of Alaska: (1) May be issued a pilot certificate with the limitation “NIGHT FLYING PROHIBITED.” (2) Must comply with the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart within 12 calendar-months after the issuance of the pilot certificate.
Click to expand...


The CFR controls this, not the designee's handbook.

Let's get the whole story straight from the regs, shall we?

61.110 Night flying exceptions.

(a) Subject to the limitations of paragraph (b) of this section, a person is not required to comply with the night flight training requirements of this subpart if the person receives flight training in and resides in the State of Alaska.

(b) A person who receives flight training in and resides in the State of Alaska but does not meet the night flight training requirements of this section:

(1) May be issued a pilot certificate with a limitation “Night flying prohibited”; and

(2) Must comply with the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart within the 12-calendar-month period after the issuance of the pilot certificate. At the end of that period, the certificate will become invalid for use until the person complies with the appropriate night training requirements of this subpart. The person may have the “Night flying prohibited” limitation removed if the person -

(i) Accomplishes the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart; and

(ii) Presents to an examiner a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor that verifies accomplishment of the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart.

(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in § 61.109(d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation “Night flying prohibited.” This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of § 61.109(d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as appropriate.​


61.110 is "Night flying exceptions," not "Alaska night flying exceptions." Paragraphs (a) and (b) relate to Alaska. Paragraph (c) does not. The last paragraph is a general exception that isn't limited to any particular state.
 
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