DPE availability in unacceptable

[Half Fast]

I've made it really clear to the people whom I deal with, both admin and CFIs.

A big part of the problem is the scheduling system itself, as it lets anyone grab whatever time/plane/CFI they want, but then enforces certain timing restrictions that effectively prevent scheduling a 3-hour stage check anywhere within the next 3-4 weeks. They used to have a chief instructor who could only be scheduled by another CFI (for stage checks and other time-critical functions), but he's gone and now it's completely out of control.

Sounds like it might be time to look for a new school.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I've made it really clear to the people whom I deal with, both admin and CFIs.

A big part of the problem is the scheduling system itself, as it lets anyone grab whatever time/plane/CFI they want, but then enforces certain timing restrictions that effectively prevent scheduling a 3-hour stage check anywhere within the next 3-4 weeks. They used to have a chief instructor who could only be scheduled by another CFI (for stage checks and other time-critical functions), but he's gone and now it's completely out of control.

This sounds a lot like a 141 school near me in the Chicago suburbs.
A friend was trying to get her stage check done and due to poor availability of the chief instructor who could sign you off combined with bad luck with weather, she ended up having her ride rescheduled twice. Each time having to go to the back of the multi-week line.
When it happened a third time I pushed her to call her CFI and/or management to say no. She needs priority b/c she was dropping tons of rental+CFI money just to stay current in pattern work so she could be signed off for solo.

But frankly a lot of the kids I see walking in/out of the ATP/141 shops by me are really young. It would be 0% surprising if they were a bit timid in the face of the CFI/chief pilots and didn't properly advocate for themselves.

 

[Clip4]

Here are some of the ideas being kicked around by DPEs in my area.

1. The applicant has to pay a 25% deposit to schedule. If the applicant cancels they lose the deposit. Minimally the knowledge portion will be completed on date scheduled and the DPE will be paid the balance on the scheduled date.
2. No advanced scheduling, the applicant may not schedule until their IACRA application and logbook endorsements are completed.
3. No scheduling multiple dates for weather cancellations.
4. All scheduling must be done by the applicant. No reservations by CFIs for students.
5. DPEs will not travel to the student’s airport. The practical tests will be conducted from the DPE’s base of operation.

 

[Clip4]

I've made it really clear to the people whom I deal with, both admin and CFIs.

A big part of the problem is the scheduling system itself, as it lets anyone grab whatever time/plane/CFI they want, but then enforces certain timing restrictions that effectively prevent scheduling a 3-hour stage check anywhere within the next 3-4 weeks. They used to have a chief instructor who could only be scheduled by another CFI (for stage checks and other time-critical functions), but he's gone and now it's completely out of control.

CFIs are prohibited from endorsing a Student pilot's logbook for solo flight privileges, unless that flight instructor has given all the flight training required for solo flight privileges required in Part 61. Presolo jumping around is a fools errand if the CFIs know the rules.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Think like a customer for a moment. When you've completed your training and you're ready, a 60-90 day delay is beyond frustrating. I would call it enough to push candidates away completely, because it is simply unreasonable. I don't know about you, but I don't have time in my schedule to deal with that sort of lead time on an optional activity - better to just go back to auto racing than to deal with that sort of nonsense.

FWIW, my pre-solo stage check tomorrow just got cancelled by my school to make room for a checkride. I get the checkride taking precedence, but rather than bumping a new low-time student in a different plane, they're bumping me when I've already been re-scheduled multiple times over several weeks. I'm on the verge of finding another school or just giving up, because it's clear that they don't have any sense of urgency in getting people through the program.

Yup…thinking like a customer, with respect to the post I responded to, I stand behind my statement 100%. DPE schedule availability has no impact on substandard training.

The reverse, however, is likely true…substandard training has a tremendous effect on DPE availability.

 

[Clip4]

Where is this rule written? If true (and I'm not doubting you) it runs counter to what I've been told by two separate CFIs.

That said, ~80% of my time has been with one CFI, and he's been careful to check me personally on each and every skill in the syllabus, and to note it in my logbook.

From a secondary perspective, though, does it really matter which CFI I'm flying with for simulated instrument (foggle) work? Pattern practice? Night hours? If it does, what are the requirements and limits I should be paying attention to?

§ 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse a:

(1) Student pilot's logbook for solo flight privileges, unless that flight instructor has—

(i) Given that student the flight training required for solo flight privileges required by this part; and

(ii) Determined that the student is prepared to conduct the flight safely under known circumstances, subject to any limitations listed in the student's logbook that the instructor considers necessary for the safety of the flight.


§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.
(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section. The term “solo flight” as used in this subpart means that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airshiprequiring more than one pilot flight crewmember.

(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the requirements of this paragraph:

(1) The test must address the student pilot's knowledge of—

(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;

(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo flight will be performed; and

(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make and model of aircraft to be flown.

(2) The student's authorized instructor must—

(i) Administer the test; and

(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.

(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a student pilot must have:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown; and

(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for a single-engine airplanerating or privileges must receive and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.

 

[hindsight2020]

If we had to paper-tether our mil solos to a single individual physically providing all items of pre solo training, we might as well surrender the NAS to the PLAAF right now, cuz fighters wouldnt fly.

It's funny to me how every facet of american life seems to follow the K curve these days. 90pct saying stuff is broken, and the 10pct usual suspect 'this is fine dog' retort with the best Monsieur Candie punchable face money can buy...

 

[MauleSkinner]

Seems reasonable on its face - BUT, the DPE needs to keep in mind that the applicant is paying for a service. What happens if the DPE cancels, weather prohibits, or if the school cancels for plane availibility? If the applicant loses the 25% for one of these reasons, it becomes unreasonable.

Nothing was said about losing the deposit for any of those reasons.

Fine, as long as there are a reasonable number of time slots open within 2 weeks. Otherwise, this is a ridiculous requirement.

It appears that’s the goal of the ideas being kicked around.

OK, fine, but someone with a weather cancellation needs to be given priority for a re-schedule. Moving them to the back of the line is not OK.

No, they don’t. Two weeks is not an unreasonable time for rescheduling due to weather.

Seems rational, but the applicant and CFI should both be involved in determining when the ride should be scheduled, right? Who has a better sense of being ready for the checkride - the newbie pilot or the CFI who has been overseeing their training?

If the student can’t figure out that he’s qualified because all logbook recommendations are signed off and IACRA is complete, he should find another hobby.

I get it from the DPEs perspective, but if you're going down this path then we need to align the DPEs with the schools' airports. Not only are you adding more hours (cost) to the plane rental for the student, it's also adding flight time both before and after the checkride (fatigue). Then what happens if the school doesn't send documentation for the plane sufficient for the DPE? If it's at the school's base, they can show everything and resolve just about anything; at a remote base, it becomes a game of "gotcha" where the student is at the mercy of remote interaction between the school and DPE.

Now, ask yourself this from an ADM perspective: You put a student into a school plane to fly 45 minutes away to an airport where they have little experience. They then spend 4 hours going through a very challenging exam and checkride, that they have spent many months and thousands of dollars prepping for. The DPE fails them on a minor technicality at the end of the process. Where is the student's headspace? Do you want this student flying that plane back to the base after all of this? Is that seriously a good idea?

How many accidents have there been because of this?

I think that what is lost here is the viewpoint that the student is a paying customer who has invested a lot of time and money.

I think what you’ve lost here is the viewpoint that you’re not the only paying customer who has invested a lot of time and money.

 

[murphey]

Perhaps this is time for a large number of students and others to point out to the FAA (courteously, of course) with copies to local congress-critters, that the FAA is failing in one of its stated mandates
"develop and administer programs relating to aviation safety and the National Airspace System."

Complete description of the FAA's responsibilities is here:

Federal Register :: Request Access

With, perhaps, a copy to the appropriate TPTB in the Dept of Transportation. Afterall, the FAA exists under USCODE-2022 Title 49, $106

 

[MauleSkinner]

Perhaps this is time for a large number of students and others to point out to the FAA (courteously, of course) with copies to local congress-critters, that the FAA is failing in one of its stated mandates
"develop and administer programs relating to aviation safety and the National Airspace System."

Complete description of the FAA's responsibilities is here:

Federal Register :: Request Access

With, perhaps, a copy to the appropriate TPTB in the Dept of Transportation. Afterall, the FAA exists under USCODE-2022 Title 49, $106

The FAA will likely come back with, “very few checkrides are scheduled more than two weeks after the date of the recommendation in IACRA.”

Initiating the scheduling policies @Clip4 mentioned first would go a long way toward providing an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[Clip4]

Nothing was said about losing the deposit for any of those reasons.


It appears that’s the goal of the ideas being kicked around.

No, they don’t. Two weeks is not an unreasonable time for rescheduling due to weather.

Cool, under the current situation you can wait a more than a month because the schedule is full .

If the student can’t figure out that he’s qualified because all logbook recommendations are signed off and IACRA is complete, he should find another hobby.

How many accidents have there been because of this?

I think what you’ve lost here is the viewpoint that you’re not the only paying customer.

Cool, examiners in my area are 6 weeks out. Your endorsements expire in 2 months.

Seems reasonable on its face - BUT, the DPE needs to keep in mind that the applicant is paying for a service. What happens if the DPE cancels, weather prohibits, or if the school cancels for plane availibility? If the applicant loses the 25% for one of these reasons, it becomes unreasonable.

I don’t know what school you go to, but most schools clear the schedule for students for a check ride. If you go to a school with crap equipment that is broken all the time, that was your choice.

Fine, as long as there are a reasonable number of time slots open within 2 weeks. Otherwise, this is a ridiculous requirement.

If no one can schedule more than 2 weeks out, there will be slots.

OK, fine, but someone with a weather cancellation needs to be given priority for a re-schedule. Moving them to the back of the line is not OK.


Seems rational, but the applicant and CFI should both be involved in determining when the ride should be scheduled, right? Who has a better sense of being ready for the checkride - the newbie pilot or the CFI who has been overseeing their training?

No, the applicant is PIC on their first passenger carrying flight for the practical test. The CFI endorse you meet the standards and are prepared for the test. If you can’t operate without advice of your CFI, you are not prepared for the certificate. If you aren’t competent enough to schedule on your own, you should not be flying.

I get it from the DPEs perspective, but if you're going down this path then we need to align the DPEs with the schools' airports. Not only are you adding more hours (cost) to the plane rental for the student, it's also adding flight time both before and after the checkride (fatigue). Then what happens if the school doesn't send documentation for the plane sufficient for the DPE? If it's at the school's base, they can show everything and resolve just about anything; at a remote base, it becomes a game of "gotcha" where the student is at the mercy of remote interaction between the school and DPE.

The complaint is DPEs are not available. If you have a DPE traveling multiple hours a day, that equals tests that can’t be given. You are PIC for this flight. It is your responsibility, not the schools, responsibility to have the logbooks and aircraft documents.

Now, ask yourself this from an ADM perspective: You put a student into a school plane to fly 45 minutes away to an airport where they have little experience. They then spend 4 hours going through a very challenging exam and checkride, that they have spent many months and thousands of dollars prepping for. The DPE fails them on a minor technicality at the end of the process. Where is the student's headspace? Do you want this student flying that plane back to the base after all of this? Is that seriously a good idea?

I think that what is lost here is the viewpoint that the student is a paying customer who has invested a lot of time and money.

To be honest, when I learned to fly many students flew to the DPEs. It was no big deal.

The syllabus at my school has students fly 2 or more hours to 2 airports they have zero experience on their first solo. The CFI may require XC flights to the DPE airports as part of training or the student may fly to the test site in advance if they want to. You are supposed to have the qualifications of a private pilot when you arrive for the test.

If you can’t accept a test failure and fly home, you aren’t prepared to be a private pilot certificate and you fly home on your student certificate.

Yes, you are the customer. But the DPE can’t serve you if a bunch of idiots are needlessly clogging up the schedule.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Cool, under the current situation you can wait a more than a month because the schedule is full .

Cool, examiners in my area are 6 weeks out. Your endorsements expire in 2 months.

And if the DPEs in your area instituted the scheduling rules you mentioned, it would raise flags at the FAA that indicate a need for more DPEs.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Not exactly that, but related:

Accident report: learning to say no : Air Facts Journal

The checkride is a time of transition, when new pilots go from the clearly defined instructor-student relationship to the much fuzzier examiner-applicant relationship. Who's in charge? The simple answer is the applicant, but an accident from late 2013 shows how tricky this question can be in...

airfactsjournal.com

An applicant signed off for a checkride when he wasn’t ready?

And presumably a cross country sign off that shouldn’t have happened (although at 20 miles, it could have been a “repeated” endorsement.)

 

[Pinecone]

In the old days, you flew to the DPE for your checkride, unless they just happened to be at the same field.

 

[MauleSkinner]

In the old days, you flew to the DPE for your checkride, unless they just happened to be at the same field.

It was only about 40 miles I had to fly to my Private and Instrument checkrides, but I had to fly another 50 miles for an ILS on the instrument ride.

 

[Clip4]

And if the DPEs in your area instituted the scheduling rules you mentioned, it would raise flags at the FAA that indicate a need for more DPEs.

And that would be a bad thing?

 

[Clip4]

An applicant signed off for a checkride when he wasn’t ready?

And presumably a cross country sign off that shouldn’t have happened (although at 20 miles, it could have been a “repeated” endorsement.)

If an applicant doesn’t understand not to fly with 600 overcast VFR, this solo fatality may have saved life of a future passenger.

 

[MauleSkinner]

And that would be a bad thing?

No.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Why don't you guys get your letters into your local FSDO and tell them you want to be a DPE?

 

[Clip4]

Why don't you guys get your letters into your local FSDO and tell them you want to be a DPE?

Actually that is not how it works. First you have to get the training and then pray they decide they need you.

If you are a basic med guy you are out because it requires a class 3 for now.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Actually that is not how it works. First you have to get the training and then pray they decide they need you.

If you are a basic med guy you are out because it requires a class 3 for now.

You are wrong. One can send a letter to the FSDO manager requesting to be considered. If they have a need, they will interview the people who have showed intent. If the interview meets guidance and they are happy with the results, the candidate then can schedule to go to OKC as well as take the written.

Now, if someone is really serious about it, they can take the written and go to OKC for class before applying as that would probably increase their chance of selection.

It starts by contacting the FSDO. Got your letter in?

 

[MauleSkinner]

How many additional flight hours does the student have to pay for to keep their skills up while waiting for a DPE?

Probably the same number that he’d have to pay for to keep his skills up after the checkride.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Probably the same number that he’s have to pay for to keep his skills up after the checkride.

So once someone passes the checkride they will need three hours of instruction in a airplane with a CFI every 60 days?

 

[MauleSkinner]

So once someone passes the checkride they will need three hours of instruction in a airplane with a CFI every 60 days?

Given how many pilots I have to drag kicking and screaming up to standard every six months or year, I’d say it’s very possible.

 

[Bob Noel]

Once someone passes the checkride, they have the option of taking a break for any number of months. After the break they can knock the rust off at their convenience

So, not quite the same as staying up to snuff for a checkride

 

[MauleSkinner]

Once someone passes the checkride, they have the option of taking a break for any number of months. After the break they can knock the rust off at their convenience

So, not quite the same as staying up to snuff for a checkride

So sit on the ground until two weeks before the scheduled checkride, and “knock the rust off”. It’s the same.

 

[Mikey52]

So sit on the ground until two weeks before the scheduled checkride, and “knock the rust off”. It’s the same.

Then ít gets cancelled for weather, then you try to get back on the schedule in maybe 6 weeks. I know this because my son had this happen in last 3 years. Private twice. Instrument twice, commercial 3 times.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Then ít gets cancelled for weather, then you try to get back on the schedule in maybe 6 weeks. I know this because my son had this happen in last 3 years. Private twice. Instrument twice, commercial 3 times.

So it takes less time to knock the rust off with every iteration. There’s no requirement to not improve. It’s still possible for learning to occur.

 

[Matthew]

I’ll go back to my instrument ride experience: I’m ready, IACRA complete, can’t get a DPE to return calls for at least 8 weeks, with no ideas when I would even get a call back let alone be able to schedule a checkride. My cfii and I both thought it would be economical to scale back the 2-3 flights/week we’d been doing down to one. Then, whenever I could get a ride scheduled we’d hit it hard a few extra flights to get that final prep. So we did that for a while. Then I get a call late one night, “Can you do your checkride tomorrow morning?” I didn’t get that final prep. I passed, but I was pretty stressed about the whole experience.

 

[Ryan F.]

You are wrong. One can send a letter to the FSDO manager requesting to be considered. If they have a need, they will interview the people who have showed intent. If the interview meets guidance and they are happy with the results, the candidate then can schedule to go to OKC as well as take the written.

Now, if someone is really serious about it, they can take the written and go to OKC for class before applying as that would probably increase their chance of selection.

It starts by contacting the FSDO. Got your letter in?

It has not been an option to attend initial training prior to selection for a number of years now. Registration for DPE Initial is restricted to selected candidates only.

The formal process now looks like this:

1) Build an application package.
2) Meet/interview with FSDO (if they are willing/interested.)
3) The FSDO will submit the application package along with a recommendation letter (again, at their discretion.)
4) The NEB (National Examiner Board) will advise the candidate whether he/she has been added to the selection pool. If successful, the candidate will be added to the NDPER (National DPE Registry.)
6) The FSDO requests available candidates from the NDPER when they desire to add a pilot examiner to their roster.
7) If selected, the applicant will be allowed to attend initial DPE training.
8) The FSDO will decide which authorizations to award.
9) The FSDO will conduct one or more check rides with the DPE depending on which authorizations are awarded. (In my case, there were two - one single-engine, one multiengine.) These are actual checkrides, not observations.
10) The FSDO will observe the designee’s first practical test. At the FSDO’s discretion they may observe each certificate/rating - in my case my observation was my first practical test, which was an instrument rating, and my first CFI add-on rating (CFI-IA.)

You’re done, at least until additional observations/surveillance is needed or warranted. I’ve had a couple of observations, both administrative and practical, since then.

Doesn’t have to be a long process, but it usually is - years, typically.