Don't do acro unless you have been trained.

Also, don't do aerobatics in aircraft that are not designed for it. ;)

I guess they did have a parachute with them. :dunno: :lol:
 
I have done acro in aircraft not approved several times. There are many pilots on the airshow circuit who do regular routines in non-aerobatic aircraft. Training and experience makes the difference. Not that I am saying go out and and snap roll a Cessna but it can be done, and done safely.
 
:sigh:

Don't attempt untrained...
  • Acro
  • Formation
  • Instrument
  • ________________ (fill in the blank)
Some things just keep happening despite all efforts to teach folks better.:(
 
Ron Levy said:
:sigh:

Don't attempt untrained...
  • Acro
  • Formation
  • Instrument
  • ________________ (fill in the blank)
Some things just keep happening despite all efforts to teach folks better.:(
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Couldn't agree with this post more.
 
And he already had surrendered his certificate because he was caught doing low level acro in a non acro plane. THis is right up with the guys getting liquored up in the bar talking about doing crazy acro and then going out in their Navion. The reconstructed ATC radar tracks sure indicate some crazy acro.

Can you do acro without wearing a chute if the aircraft is so equipped?
 
Probable Cause
Full Narrative

On February 17, 2006, the pilot submitted a letter of surrender to the FAA, which constituted an "unequivocal abandonment" of his commercial pilot certificate. The stated reason for the surrender was, "Voluntary surrender in anticipation of FAA certificate action." No further details regarding the precipitating circumstances of the anticipated FAA certificate action were contained within the file. On August 31, 2008, the right seat pilot obtained a student pilot certificate, and between that time and June 2010, the pilot obtained all of the certificates and ratings held at the time of the accident.
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:eek::rolleyes:
 
flyingron said:
Can you do acro without wearing a chute if the aircraft is so equipped?
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Can you? Yes. Is it legal? Only if nobody but required crew is aboard (training from an authorized instructor on a maneuver required for a certificate rating, or acro in a 2-pilot acro plane notwithstanding).
91.307 said:
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds--
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to--
(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or
(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by--
(i) A certificated flight instructor; or
(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with Sec. 61.67 of this chapter.
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Note that there is no exception to the word "wearing" so a BRS doesn't fill the bill, probably because if it fails structurally during an acro maneuver (the main reason they require chutes for acro), the ability of the structure to withstand the loads of parachute deployment and ground impact is compromised.

And please don't try to do acro under the hood with a safety pilot in order to beat this rule.
 
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When was the last time an acro pilot had to utilize his or her parachute?
 
The FARs are pretty specific with regard to the person wearing a chute, because there are no certified aerobatic aircraft, with a factory BRS to require a rewrite of that FAR.
 
Just curious but where is the evidence that he had never been trained?
 
And just think. Had he survived, you could have been the next renter of that aircraft....
 
Silvaire said:
Just curious but where is the evidence that he had never been trained?
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Don't know about evidence, but it's not an unreasonable assumption, considering he bailed on an aileron roll halfway through. Or maybe he was letting his passenger fly. But a positive G aileron roll is about the easiest maneuver in the world to perform in any airplane that rolls faster than a Curtis Jenny. Bailing halfway through and hitting the ground indicates a thorough lack of knowledge and ability. Very unlikely anyone with a decent amount aerobatic training and experience would perform such a blunder. Or he could have stupidly been letting his cousin fly and try a roll. At the altitudes here, this is either a mark of incomprehensible stupidity, or again - lack of experience. 4,000 hours means squat when it comes to doing acro.

X3 Skier said:
Unless you are Bob Hoover. ;)
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The reality is that you don't need to be anywhere near a Bob Hoover to safely perform some basic acro maneuvers in non-acro planes. It just takes some very basic understanding, training, and ability. This is not a recommendation for doing acro in non-acro planes. Doing safe aerobatics in any airplane is very easy, given the basic training and skills I mention. But there's a big difference between being safe and being good. Flying like Bob Hoover, is another matter.
 
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whifferdill said:
Don't know about evidence, but it's not an unreasonable assumption, considering he bailed on an aileron roll halfway through. Or maybe he was letting his passenger fly. But a positive G aileron roll is about the easiest maneuver in the world to perform in any airplane that rolls faster than a Curtis Jenny. Bailing halfway through and hitting the ground indicates a thorough lack of knowledge and ability. Very unlikely anyone with a decent amount aerobatic training and experience would perform such a blunder. Or he could have stupidly been letting his cousin fly and try a roll. At the altitudes here, this is either a mark of incomprehensible stupidity, or again - lack of experience. 4,000 hours means squat when it comes to doing acro.
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What about the possibility of a control failure? Cirrus isn't designed for aerobatics and I assume it's control linkages will fail if used at high G forced continuously with abrupt control movements.

Also we don't know for a fact that he was doing an aileron roll, could have been a badly executed split-S.
 
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MachFly said:
What about the possibility of a control failure? Cirrus isn't designed for aerobatics and I assume it's control linkages will fail if used at high G forced continuously with abrupt control movements.
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What difference does it make? There is a reason certified planes are not allowed to do aerobatics, that is the reason. ;)
 
MachFly said:
What about the possibility of a control failure? Cirrus isn't designed for aerobatics and I assume it's control linkages will fail if used at high G forced continuously with abrupt control movements.
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I certainly wouldn't believe that. The airplane will break apart before the control linkages fail.
 
Geico266 said:
What difference does it make? There is a reason certified planes are not allowed to do aerobatics, that is the reason. ;)
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At this point whether is was certified or not won't change anything, but learning what actually happened can make some of our flying safer.
 
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whifferdill said:
The airplane will break apart before the control linkages fail.
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No I don't mean just constant high G forces, also abrupt control movements which create increased wear on control linkages. For example a snap roll or a 4 point roll.
 
Silvaire said:
Just curious but where is the evidence that he had never been trained?
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I think his last flight supports that assumption, but yeah, maybe he took some acro dual and then forgot everything he'd learned.:rolleyes2:
I think a better title for this thread might be "Don't fly if you are a complete idiot."

The low level "rat racing", etc doesnt bother me, unless the other occupant was not willing to assume the risk.... but rolling a Cirrus is not something you do down low, on a whim.
Doesnt matter if he had prior aerobatic experience... if someone of the caliber of Younkin or Tucker wanted to try rolling a Cirrus, he'd try it alone, with a parachute, and at a safe altitude.
 
BTW here is the actual report: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20111113X85646&ntsbno=ERA12FA068&akey=1


Check out this bit:
HISTORY OF FLIGHT

On November 13, 2011, at 1736 eastern standard time, a Cirrus Design Corp SR22, N661FT, was substantially damaged when it impacted terrain within the Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge near Boynton Beach, Florida. The certificated commercial pilot and the certificated private pilot were fatally injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan was filed for the flight. The personal flight, which originated at Witham Field (SUA), Stuart, Florida about 1722, was operated under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91.

The pilots were returning from an air show at SUA, with a presumed destination of Willis Gliderport (FA44), Boynton Beach, Florida. Flying in formation with the accident airplane were a Sukhoi Su-29 and an Extra EA-300, each piloted by a friend of the commercial pilot. After joining in formation about 10 nautical miles south of SUA, the flight proceeded southwest.

Shortly after the flight crossed the northern border of the Loxahatchee National Wildlife Refuge, the pilot of the Su-29 observed the accident airplane's pitch smoothly increase upward to an angle of about 30 degrees. The airplane then began a roll to the left, and pitched nose-down as it rolled to an inverted attitude. As the airplane descended, it began to roll right, before it impacted the marsh below in an approximate 80-degree nose-down pitch attitude.

The pilot of the Su-29 subsequently entered a left orbit around the accident site and contacted air traffic control to report the accident.
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MachFly said:
No I don't mean just constant high G forces, also abrupt control movements which create increased wear on control linkages. For example a snap roll or a 4 point roll.
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You're not going to break anything just by applying aileron abruptly. Again, the actual hardware and control linkages will be intact long after you've overstressed the airplane and folded the wings up. And someone inexperienced enough to do what this pilot did wouldn't know how to do a snap roll...and even if they did it improperly and somehow broke the airplane, it won't be the control linkages that fail. They were just attempting a garden-variety positive G aileron roll. Low G. Easy manuever. No way I believe this was a mechanical issue. They reversed the roll direction. This was Darwin at work plain and simple.
 
Also it would be kind of tough to lose track of your AGL in Florida. :dunno:
 
What I've gotten from the thread so far. So it's legal if I go out and do aerobatics in a non aerobatic aircraft as long as I have proper training? It's not legal to do aerobatics in any aircraft, even if it's aerobatic certified, without proper training?
 
Velocity173 said:
What I've gotten from the thread so far. So it's legal if I go out and do aerobatics in a non aerobatic aircraft as long as I have proper training? It's not legal to do aerobatics in any aircraft, even if it's aerobatic certified, without proper training?
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Look up the definition of "aerobatics" according to the FAA. ;). If I remember right anything more than a 30 degree bank in the pattern is considered aerobatic, including take off. Hard for me not to break that rule. :rolleyes: :D. ;)

It is not required to have training. :no: Just highly recommended. ;)
 
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Silvaire said:
Just curious but where is the evidence that he had never been trained?
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Reference his coffin, oh and his cousins too.

The FDR shows the aircraft pitching up 30 degrees, beginning the roll, aborting the roll half way through, and impacting the ground at an 80 degree angle. That is a very novice move which shows little to know training in aerobatics. It is much easier to use the momentum of the roll, to continue, than it is to go back. In a Pitts you can do it easily, get inverted, and go back the other way without issue. In the Cirrus, I am not so sure. The Citabria will enter about an 80 degree dive if you try and do that.

I don't remember if it was a Columbia, or a Cirrus, and I don't remember if it was Sean Tucker, or Bill Stein, but one of them used to demo the aircraft at Fleet Week in SF and do light aerobatics in them. It can be done if the person knows what they're doing.
 
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MachFly said:
What about the possibility of a control failure? Cirrus isn't designed for aerobatics and I assume it's control linkages will fail if used at high G forced continuously with abrupt control movements.

Also we don't know for a fact that he was doing an aileron roll, could have been a badly executed split-S.
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Well. I won't say that control linkage failure CAN'T happen, but an aileron roll is so gentle on the aircraft, it is in my opinion, the most gentle aerobatic maneuver. If the G forces were high enough in the control input to cause failure, he would be over-stressing the aircraft beyond the designed load limit, plus the 50% factor. To me this is just about impossible unless he was doing multiple vertical rolls on the downline from 10,000 feet, which is not the case.
 
Velocity173 said:
What I've gotten from the thread so far. So it's legal if I go out and do aerobatics in a non aerobatic aircraft as long as I have proper training? It's not legal to do aerobatics in any aircraft, even if it's aerobatic certified, without proper training?
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There is no requirement for aerobatic training, prior to performing aerobatics in ANY aircraft regardless if it is certified or not. The FARs themselves, make no mention of doing aerobatics in aircraft certified for aerobatics or not.
 
Also according to data, it shows the accident roll being started at 220 feet. Think about that for a second or 3.
 
whifferdill said:
You're not going to break anything just by applying aileron abruptly.
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In an aerobatic airplane you won't, I'm not sure about a Cirrus. Sure if you do it once nothing will happen, but if done often....?

Inverted said:
Well. I won't say that control linkage failure CAN'T happen, but an aileron roll is so gentle on the aircraft, it is in my opinion, the most gentle aerobatic maneuver. If the G forces were high enough in the control input to cause failure, he would be over-stressing the aircraft beyond the designed load limit, plus the 50% factor. To me this is just about impossible unless he was doing multiple vertical rolls on the downline from 10,000 feet, which is not the case.
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I doubt that it was the first time he was doing it.
 
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