DOGE and the FAA

[455 Bravo Uniform]

And is it worse than in private industry?

Over 30 years in the manufacturing industry I have been witness to numerous layoffs and restructurings. No comment from me on successes or failure of those changes, but when the sole metric of profitability was the goal, that’s what we did with management structure and personnel. Our investors demanded performance. Quite a bit different than 350 some odd million customers who are also investors and stakeholders though. Interesting thoughts…

 

[Doc Holliday]

Can you back that up, especially the “…does nothing constructive”? And is it worse than in private industry?

Kinda sounds like a trope but I’m open to some unbiased evidence for it.

It wasn't long ago that the agency found they had 130 K bands that essentially had no job function other than to attend meetings to decide on what the next meeting would be about. Most of these are work from home types with no real responsibilities.

Lot's of J band positions that are occupied by ASI's who couldn't cut it as an Inspector, and they don't contribute anything.

Government needs to act more like private industry where non performers are shown the door rather than promoted.

 

[Jim K]

As I said, its something we can all agree needs to stop. The problem is the sheer size of the government bureaucracy. These things get slipped into multi-thousand page omnibus bills that no one could ever possibly read every line. What's $200,000 here or there in a multi-trillion dollar package. Its not even a rounding error. I was once involved in a conversation with a certain Senator, and concern was being expressed about a multi-million dollar program important to our operation. We were assured by said Senator not to worry, because Congress doesn't really spend much time sweating anything under a billion dollars, they just don't have the time.

I think it's not even really intentional. Some congressman gets a few million dollars for research at his state university system (rounding error, like you said), and that gets passed around to all the phD candidate's various projects. Some of it is really useful, some of it is silly. Some of it may be useful, but sound silly when called out by a name made up by the person calling them out.

I'm not going to argue there's not a lot of waste and abuse, but I will say that sometimes it's not so simple. Remember the kerfuffle about "golden hammers" and "million dollar toilet seats" at the pentagon? It sounded insane, but it turned out that a lot of that stuff was a catch-all line in a budget, or some black-ops stuff shoved into a nondescript budget line.

Our little fire department bought a new truck about a decade ago, and there was a big deal made about the $40,000 paint job. In reality, the paint job was well less than half of that, and a number of last minute changes and additions that were done by the finishing shop got tucked in there. Is any of this good....no. Transparency is the ideal, especially for public money. My only point is that every time I see one of these stories, I take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Transparency is the ideal, especially for public money.

Exactly.

 

[Baked Potato]

My only point is that every time I see one of these stories, I take it with a grain of salt.

Exactly
At every government building I worked in, people had to buy their own coffee. Obviously the federal government is so wasteful, it won't even provide coffee for its own employees.
It was incredibly spartan. And the general feeling all around was that there was much more work than there were people, or time to do it. I don't work alongside feds right now, but still talk to some of them regularly. They often have to miss the same major industry conferences that I attend due to budget reasons. And when they do travel their expenses are quite tight.

Contrast that with the company my wife works for, which is public and is traded on major markets. You need to see the lavish expense reports that management submits after their many yearly trips. Business class travel for even the shortest trips, huge bills at fancy restaurants (and alcohol, which my federal brethren couldn't dream of expensing)

The mantra that private industry works much more efficiently than government is a lie, at least in my 20 years of experience between the two. I understand its attractiveness as a talking point for aspiring politicians though.

 

[Jim K]

Exactly
At every government building I worked in, people had to buy their own coffee. Obviously the federal government is so wasteful, it won't even provide coffee for its own employees.
It was incredibly spartan. And the general feeling all around was that there was much more work than there were people, or time to do it. I don't work alongside feds right now, but still talk to some of them regularly. They often have to miss the same major industry conferences that I attend due to budget reasons. And when they do travel their expenses are quite tight.

Contrast that with the company my wife works for, which is public and is traded on major markets. You need to see the lavish expense reports that management submits after their many yearly trips. Business class travel for even the shortest trips, huge bills at fancy restaurants (and alcohol, which my federal brethren couldn't dream of expensing)

The mantra that private industry works much more efficiently than government is a lie, at least in my 20 years of experience between the two. I understand its attractiveness as a talking point for aspiring politicians though.

I believe that both public and private, the amount of money you can get away with blowing is proportional to how close you are to the top of the hierarchy.

 

[Dana]

As much as we want 3rd class medicals to go away, until you get buy-in for Basic med from other countries you just can't.

Sure you can... you just make it optional, not required for domestic operations. If a pilot wants to fly internationally he can get a 3rd class. We already do the same for the restricted radiotelephone license, it used to be required for all pilots, now you just need it for international flights.

 

[Half Fast]

So hang on…

A requirement for Basic Med is to have had a previous 1/2/3, if I’m not mistaken. If they get rid of 3, seems like that would mean one would need a 1 or 2 before moving to Basic Med. Granted, a 2 is basically a 3 with a shorter lifespan but is that what you’re meaning to say you hope for or are you hoping one can get a Basic Med without ever having passed any flight PE?

Correct. It would require a change to the law to eliminate the class 3 pre-req for Basic Med.

Which should be done. The class 3 seems to have little value. Prior to 1960 or so, a flight physical for private pilots could be performed by any physician. Let’s return to that.

 

[WDD]

Short of changing the law, the FAA could make a new 4th class identical to Basic Med and have it expire in 24 hours. That way you’d be eligible for Basic Med, and since it expired, the FAA couldn’t deny or revoke it. It would also count as a regular Basic Med.

Any PCP could do this new 4th class thing.

It would free up all of the resources they are using now on 3rd class processing.

 

[Half Fast]

Short of changing the law, the FAA could make a new 4th class identical to Basic Med and have it expire in 24 hours. That way you’d be eligible for Basic Med, and since it expired, the FAA couldn’t deny or revoke it. It would also count as a regular Basic Med.

Any PCP could do this new 4th class thing.

It would free up all of the resources they are using now on 3rd class processing.

Unfortunately, without changing the law you would still have the requirement for a one-time SI for the three categories.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Government needs to act more like private industry where non performers are shown the door rather than promoted.

I agree but the devil’s in the details. On the one hand, when the skipper of a Navy ship gets “fired” for some misadventure, they rarely get kicked out of the Navy and almost as rarely get demoted: they get moved to a different job with the same rank and pay* most of the time and typically with less responsibility/stress (*yeah, maybe they lose a bonus or two by changing jobs). Granted, their future promotability is very limited but they’re not out of a job. But that’s by regulation, as set by Congress. Similar in many Civil Service roles (including in most state jobs). I think that’s worth a re-look but I’m not sure how much interest most congressmen have in poking at that.

On the other hand, should a career Fed professional lose their job, whether by being transferred or actually being shown the door, strictly because of a change in administration and the new one wants nothing but sycophants? Changes down the line with a change in leadership, even in civilian life, are the norm for certain roles, of course, but all “redundancies” aren’t created equally and some may have no connection to actual performance or job relevance.

And I’m not actually saying you were incorrect with your comment about there being waste at the leadership level in Civil Service. Because we, the taxpayer, “own” it there’s far more scrutiny and visibility than we have of the private sector, so it’s hard to compare. There’s definitely waste, poor performance, cronyism, etc. in the private sector companies I’ve worked for too. The common denominator: they all have humans leading them and working for them.

Contrast that with the company my wife works for, which is public and is traded on major markets. You need to see the lavish expense reports that management submits after their many yearly trips.

ABSOLUTELY!

While traveling for the Air Force, we were typically put up at decent but not exciting places and had Federally-set per diems that were reasonable but by no means lavish. When working at a non-profit hospital system, there were very few limits, especially when traveling with very senior people (I was a VP). Dinners out with my boss were very nice and included the best wines I’ve ever had! (Add: I personally had a $12,000/year budget just for Continuing Medical Education; a “slush fund” that I never emptied).

I briefly worked for the State of Texas for the Medicare IG. THAT was spartan. I attended a conference to represent the office and couldn’t stay in the hotel where the conference was (a nice but by no means extravagant place the Air Force would definitely have covered). Instead they put me up in a threadbare Super 8-level place 20 minutes down the road.

 

[Kevin Eggert]

That is the current requirement. I am hoping they will get rid of both 3rd class medical and the need to have it before you can go to BM. Basically, they should just let pilots get a basic med. If a physician thinks a person should not fly, that's good enough.

Better than this... let's just turn a 3rd class medical into what Basic Med is now. What I mean by this is keep the same process that Basic Med uses now, but rewrite the 3rd class medical requirements to mirror the process/procedures. This way, 3rd class still exists and is valid for all the same priviledges (including Canadian travel), but the requirements to obtain it are the same as Basic Med.

 

[Brad W]

.....As much as we want 3rd class medicals to go away, until you get buy-in for Basic med from other countries you just can't. Would be better to overhaul the medical system to remove so much of the bureaucracy, but that applies to 99% of the Federal government....

fair point I think.
So maybe 3rd doesn't go away exactly.
And while I like the idea of replacing it with basic mad in general terms, I feel like basic med is sort of half-baked too (namely, you have family practice interest who have no real idea what they are supposed to be looking at just fumbling through and making it up as they go along. Mine pulled out an ekg machine, I felt like for no other reason than he felt the need to "do something". )

I would argue that something like "basic med" but better could replace the 3rd class...done in such a way that would cover the international issue but still eliminate much or all of the hoop jumping

but there's a big point to justify it.... how much money would the FAA save?
I'm thinking they would free up a lot of man hours not having to process all of the medicals for non-commercial pilots...but what sort of $ number would that look like?

 

[WDD]

Unfortunately, without changing the law you would still have the requirement for a one-time SI for the three categories.

I thought the law required a medical, but not a specific one.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I'm old enough to remember when Carter introduced zero-based budgeting to the US Government. Great idea in concept, but in execution, because of the vastness of the enterprise even af that time, it only provided another layer of paper pushers. It was valuable enough as a cost/benefit tool for parts of it to survive until the 90's when it was finally phased out altogether. In the meantime, various and sundry partisan and bipartisan debt commissions have come and gone with great fanfare, accomplishing exactly zero. To paraphrase Dean Wormer, 'every fall the trees are filled with toilet paper, every spring the toilets explode'. What's old is new again. Everybody wants cuts until their ox is gored.

Why did ZBB fail? Because 30, 40 50 years ago it was impossible for human auditors to compile, analyze, correlate and remember at scale all the inputs, outputs and performance measures required to do an adequate analysis of value for money. With the advent of AI tools, , those should no longer be constraints. Computers remember everything.

I would feel much better about these wunderkind if they proposed a using new tools to reintroduce ZBB and AI to FAA programs for example, to determine more accurately cost/benefits, then propose reasonable cuts.

But that would take time and cost money, and that won't play in Peoria.

 

[jbarrass]

So I'm an optimist about this process.

Some of the problem programs are by law and will require more work to repeal, but many, many are administrative and will be relatively easy to remove. For example, the law established BasicMed and requires a 3rd class medical, but doesn't define 3rd class requirements. A simple rule change defining a valid state D/L the equivalent of a 3rd class and the DOT physical as class 2 would work. Removing the 1st class might not be viable.

But I think the objective here is much bigger. $2T to balance the budget is the stated objective so the changes will be bold.

Hang on for the ride. It'll be fun.

 

[Brad W]

....Why did ZBB fail? Because 30, 40 50 years ago it was impossible for human auditors to compile, analyze, correlate and remember at scale all the inputs, outputs and performance measures required to do an adequate analysis of value for money. With the advent of AI tools, , those should no longer be constraints. Computers remember everything.
.....

Why do any of these pushes to streamline govt fail? I don't know much about the particulars, but I speculate that in very large part is has something to do with the vast number of different agencies and positions that are entrenched over the decades fully in self-preservation and self-justification mode... all headed by a troop of career politicians in the house and senate that are also fully locked-in on doing the same self-preservationa and self-justification... Hard for any one administration to fully go to battle with that infrastructure in the short 4 or 8 years that they have.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I think it is mostly theatrics. However, Musk has demonstrated extraordinary talent for doing things believed to be impossible. So who knows what crazy rabbit he'll pull from his latest hat?

 

[Half Fast]

I thought the law required a medical, but not a specific one.

The SI requirement is baked into the original law. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-114publ190/pdf/PLAW-114publ190.pdf See section 2307. The FAA basically mirrored the law, so it's very tough to change Basic Med to any appreciable degree without running afoul of Congress.

 

[WDD]

I think more than saving money, the real pay off will be getting rid of the bureaucracy and red tape associated with an unneeded cost.

 

[Half Fast]

I think it is mostly theatrics. However, Musk has demonstrated extraordinary talent for doing things believed to be impossible. So who knows what crazy rabbit he'll pull from his latest hat?

Don't underestimate the power of theatrics. Making a theatrical display of fraud and waste in one or two agencies could inspire others to clean things up on their own, lest they be on stage next.

 

[StraightnLevel]

If a physician thinks a person should not fly, that's good enough.

The problem with this is that it assumes that all doctors know what the skills and physical requirements are for piloting. I've met some docs who may be perfectly competent in their specialty, but who would have no clue about how to evaluate someone for fitness as a pilot. I also know an eye doc who probably would be better at it than most GPs. One size does not fit all, just as with any profession.

 

[jbarrass]

The SI requirement is baked into the original law. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-114publ190/pdf/PLAW-114publ190.pdf See section 2307. The FAA basically mirrored the law, so it's very tough to change Basic Med to any appreciable degree without running afoul of Congress.

Nothing in the law say's the SI needs to be done by a Government Doctor. The FAA could make something like CACI but allow state licensed physicians to do them.

 

[jbarrass]

The problem with this is that it assumes that all doctors know what the skills and physical requirements are for piloting. I've met some docs who may be perfectly competent in their specialty, but who would have no clue about how to evaluate someone for fitness as a pilot.

Can you specifically articulate what in a 3rd class exam a normal physician can't do?

 

[StraightnLevel]

Can you specifically articulate what in a 3rd class exam a normal physician can't do?

In terms of checking the boxes? Not much. However, how many times does a GP get wrapped up in a discussion over relevance of a 40-year old traffic offense or a childhood prescription for a specific drug? There's a lot of stuff that AMEs deal with that I would wager most docs never give a second thought to.

Secondarily, there is the core conflict of interest. The average insurance-employed doc cannot make a living without issuing diagnoses and lab tests by the bushel; those same tests and diagnoses are often disqualifiers for FAA medicals.

 

[charheep]

Don't underestimate the power of theatrics. Making a theatrical display of fraud and waste in one or two agencies could inspire others to clean things up on their own, lest they be on stage next.

Isnt the issue that next years budget is based on the current years budget? So, if they cut 15% out of expenses, then the next year they get 15% less? There is no incentive to cut expenses, and more incentive to spend every penny allocated.

I wish they would introduce bills with one change/law in them. Passing a bill with cute names that have pages of other laws attached that have nothing to do it with causes us to glaze over. " How dare you, congresscritter, vote against Clean Blue Skies Act for all?" When on page 2, there is 6 billion for research if a car hurts a deer when it gets hit at highway speed

 

[Jim_R]

I think it is mostly theatrics. However, Musk has demonstrated extraordinary talent for doing things believed to be impossible. So who knows what crazy rabbit he'll pull from his latest hat?

Musk gets a lot of credit for his successes, and he deserves it--SpaceX and Tesla were both bold endeavours that have succeeded despite critics' predictions of failure.

But take off the fanboy glasses and step back and look at his broader set of endeavors, and he is not batting 1.000. Twitter, Solar City, and The Boring Company have not been great successes. And the list of promises that he's made with Tesla that he's failed (so far) to deliver is long.

Much of what Musk has been able to accomplish has been done because he has had a large amount of direct control over the situation. Whether he's able to have success within the constraints of federal law and with a 4 year time limited remains to be seen.

 

[jbarrass]

In terms of checking the boxes? Not much. However, how many times does a GP get wrapped up in a discussion over relevance of a 40-year old traffic offense or a childhood prescription for a specific drug? There's a lot of stuff that AMEs deal with that I would wager most docs never give a second thought to.

Secondarily, there is the core conflict of interest. The average insurance-employed doc cannot make a living without issuing diagnoses and lab tests by the bushel; those same tests and diagnoses are often disqualifiers for FAA medicals.

I don't think the real doctors ever get hung up over a 40-year old traffic offense or a childhood prescription for a specific drug . Same with tests and diagnoses that are possible disqualifiers for FAA medicals. A real doctor doing an actual exam could use the same professional judgement that allows you to do many things. These are examples of the bureaucratic overreach they are looking to eliminate.

This is a feature, not a bug.

 

[Flyhound]

If the data showing that basic med and 3rd class medicals have the same accident rate are accurate, I hope they get rid of 3rd class for private pilots.

Be careful what you wish for. Canada still doesn't recognize Basic Med, so getting rid of the 3rd Class medical would stop a LOT of pilots from being able to fly into Canada. That hasn't been a problem with the Bahamas and Mexico, but the last FAAST video I watched about flying into Mexico suggested there are still airports in Baja where flight under Basic Med is problematic.

 

[WDD]

The problem with this is that it assumes that all doctors know what the skills and physical requirements are for piloting. I've met some docs who may be perfectly competent in their specialty, but who would have no clue about how to evaluate someone for fitness as a pilot. I also know an eye doc who probably would be better at it than most GPs. One size does not fit all, just as with any profession.

I still look at the data. Basic Med pilots are no more dangerous, falling out of the sky more than 3rd class.

No need to make a hypothesis about normal PCPs vs AME’s when we have the real world data.

 

[MRC01]

Ok, can we have a real discussion and try to keep this thread from being killed immediately?

Most of the time I am in favor of shrinking and disrupting government. Like any large organization, whether public or private, there certainly are parts of it that need this.
But when I think about it, I am also glad that we don't get all the government that we pay for!

... What would you cut at the FAA? What would you change?
I would start by firing many involved with the insanity of MOSIAC and the red tape it is taking l to get this in play!

Many of the regulations are written in blood. They're there for good reason and should stay in effect. But not all of them.
I agree that MOSAIC goes in the right direction. And more generally, simplifying regulations around aircraft, engines and instruments. This could make building and maintaining airplanes both safer and less expensive.

Another thing I would change is to restore slow flight and stalls to the private pilot ACS.

I think the concept of a 3rd class medical is important because so many people take drugs that affect cognition, and have medical conditions that could cause them to lose consciousness. But we need (somehow) to simplify the process.

 

[MRC01]

I still look at the data. Basic Med pilots are no more dangerous, falling out of the sky more than 3rd class.

True, but every person with Basic Med had a 3rd class medical at some point. So the worst cases were already weeded out.

 

[Jim K]

Twitter, Solar City, and The Boring Company have not been great successes. And the list of promises that he's made with Tesla that he's failed (so far) to deliver is long.

I don't follow it that close, but I thought Twitter/X had surpassed the subscribers and revenue it had before he bought it? Also, I don't think he necessarily bought it to make money. I won't get into those motivations for fear of triggering both sides and ruining the thread, but I'm also not certain it wasn't just a prank taken farther than he meant to lol.

The solar stuff is floundering AFAIK, and the Boring Company....I really don't get that one. The whole hyperloop thing. He has to be smart enough to know that isn't going to work? Or maybe I'm the dumb one?

Here's the thing...I no longer bet against the man. I remember rolling my eyes at the original Tesla roadster. I remember the early prototyping leading up to Falcon. I remember watching Falcon Heavy land both boosters simultaneously. Even after all of that, when he started talking about Starship, I thought there was no way they'd build something that big... and reusable, forget it. The video of that thing landing back on the tower blew my mind. I'm pretty certain I'm going to live to see a colony on Mars with a Spacex logo on the side of it.

 

[Ed Haywood]

But take off the fanboy glasses and step back and look at his broader set of endeavors, and he is not batting 1.000. Twitter, Solar City, and The Boring Company have not been great successes.

Nobody bats 1.000 when taking those kinds of risks. Hard to argue with the aggregate result: richest man in the world.

At this point, many of his enterprises are no longer straight business plays anyways. Twitter, for example. He lost some market value, but used it to help his favored candidate win, which exponentially increased his influence in government. Tesla gained more market value after the election than he paid for Twitter.

Who here had "Elon Musk in the US government" on their bingo card 6 months ago?

Starlink is shaping up to be another category killer, BTW.

It's possible he is just bumbling through life getting lucky. But IMO at this point the preponderance of the evidence says he really is playing 6D chess.

 

[172andyou]

I don't follow it that close, but I thought Twitter/X had surpassed the subscribers and revenue it had before he bought it?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/twitters-revenue-collapses-84-tesla-171535190.html

"
Musk bought Twitter for $44 billion, but turning the company around has been a big challenge. The New York Times recently reported that X made only $114 million in revenue in the U.S. during the second quarter of 2024, according to the documents they obtained. This is a massive drop compared to $661 million in the same quarter in 2022 before Musk took over. When we account for inflation, that’s a drop of a whopping 84%.
"

Elon is a decently smart guy. But he will fail in the government either by making the wrong moves or by failing to get anything accomplished. Working in the government is very, very different from running a company. He is, at this point, very used to ruling by fiat. He declares something to be the next thing to do, throws money at it and it gets done. Government is about rules, coalition building and, most importantly, being able to get things through congress. That's not his skillset.

Need proof?

In order to reduce waste in government they created an entirely new department. That's already a step in the wrong direction. And, worse, a step that basically every president takes. Someone mentioned Carter's attempt at solving this flavor of problem. Obama's was called the Campaign to Cut Waste, which isn't exactly sexy name, but at least isn't also a joke about a crypto currency.

Second, this new department is headed by not one, but two people. I don't see how anyone can doubt that putting two people in charge of things will be more efficient than one.

I think this was a joke in The Office, wasn't it? Didn't Dunder Mifflin get bought and when the new owner found out there were two branch managers said something like, "well, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard".

 

[MacFlier]

Exactly
At every government building I worked in, people had to buy their own coffee. Obviously the federal government is so wasteful, it won't even provide coffee for its own employees.
It was incredibly spartan. And the general feeling all around was that there was much more work than there were people, or time to do it. I don't work alongside feds right now, but still talk to some of them regularly. They often have to miss the same major industry conferences that I attend due to budget reasons. And when they do travel their expenses are quite tight.

Contrast that with the company my wife works for, which is public and is traded on major markets. You need to see the lavish expense reports that management submits after their many yearly trips. Business class travel for even the shortest trips, huge bills at fancy restaurants (and alcohol, which my federal brethren couldn't dream of expensing)

The mantra that private industry works much more efficiently than government is a lie, at least in my 20 years of experience between the two. I understand its attractiveness as a talking point for aspiring politicians though.

I have the same experience, working in consulting in state and local government for 4.5 years. Very spartan installations, minimal IT infrastructure, low salaries, no coffee or any perks, old buildings and office furniture. The people were very nice and most of the time well qualified.

 

[jbarrass]

Sure, Twitter lost 80% of revenue (advertising) but he cut costs 80% too, as a business guy, that's a wash. Number of users and posts is setting records. I'm not sure what metrics are relevant but the Owners are satisfied with where it is at.

Time will tell if he has an impact, but betting against him is frequently not a winning play.

 

[Bob Noel]

Kind of quick to call the DOGE stuff inefficient when no one knows how the new "department" will function.

Does anyone know how it will be funded? Does anyone actually know anything about it? But everyone already "knows" it will be inefficient and not effective.

 

[StraightnLevel]

I have the same experience, working in consulting in state and local government for 4.5 years. Very spartan installations, minimal IT infrastructure, low salaries, no coffee or any perks, old buildings and office furniture. The people were very nice and most of the time well qualified.

Sure. It's not that the people who work in government are incompetent or lazy. The question is whether or not the jobs that they do are really necessary, and whether or not those functions are worth what we spend on them.

 

[WDD]

True, but every person with Basic Med had a 3rd class medical at some point. So the worst cases were already weeded out.

Uh….. not IMHO.

Given the amount of time long ago a person could have had a 3rd class, weeds have had time to creep in. It’s now for those folks effectively the Basic Med which is keeping us from Cessna terror.

And Sport Pilots who have no medical are not going Dr. Strangelove on us.

The requirement of a previous medical wasn’t based on data.

Anyway - I hear your POV, I’m not trying to convince you you’re wrong, just offering my POV.