Does anyone file /A anymore?

swingwing

swingwing

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Swingwing
I fly with a Anywhere Map GPS but always file /A because that is how my plane is equiped. Controllers are always clearing me direct to my destination of fixes along my route that I can't navigate to without use of the GPS. I usually respond "unable I'm /A" I get the feeling GPS is so common that controllers assume everyone has one.

My question is on a IFR flight plan can I legally fly direct using my handheld GPS?
 
swingwing said:
My question is on a IFR flight plan can I legally fly direct using my handheld GPS?
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No - not really. Some people get around this by asking for vectors to a fix via a heading they suggest to the controller. Personally I don't bother with that.

I haven't done much for /A because all the aircraft with DME that I have access to also have an IFR GPS. But I have flown IFR as /U which really limits your options these days.
 
I used to get that a lot flying /A or /U. Legally, you need to give them "Unable," which is what I did. But sometimes I'd take an assigned heading if I had my VFR GPS and was on a long trip.

I hear a lot of people purger themselves on air when they ask for direct, then admit to not having an IFR GPS after the controller questions them. Not a particularly good idea.
 
I am (still living in the 90's) filing this, but it's not necessary to end the offer of a shortcut or other favorable routing with 'unable; slant alpha'.
I have safely and successfully encouraged atc with 'can accept RV til receiving ___' or 'I can accept a RV heading of (eg) 140 direct [airway fix]'.
(Gas is over $4.50/gal now, y'know!) And where I fly atc has been uniformly helpful on this.
 
jesse said:
..I haven't done much for /A because all the aircraft with DME that I have access to also have an IFR GPS. But I have flown IFR as /U which really limits your options these days.
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You just need access to mine. I wish I could see the DME, but it's there and it works. No GPS on the panel.
 
I think i read in bob gardner's book, its a smart idea to write "vfr gps" in the remarks section of your ifr plan if you have one avail. Atc will clear you direct if they are able to, its up to you to decline or accept. Technically you should not accept if you are in imc.
 
dell30rb said:
write "vfr gps" in the remarks section of your ifr plan
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I tried that once, and it just proved to be a nuisance because a controller wanted me to explain what I mean by vfr gps and what it should mean to him. After that, I just filed as /A
 
jesse said:
But I have flown IFR as /U which really limits your options these days.
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I once got cleared direct to an NDB by a controller trying to figure out how to get me somewhere flying /U, but even my ADF was inop :(
 
dell30rb said:
I think i read in bob gardner's book, its a smart idea to write "vfr gps" in the remarks section of your ifr plan if you have one avail. Atc will clear you direct if they are able to, its up to you to decline or accept. Technically you should not accept if you are in imc.
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Technically you should not accept if you haven't legal means to navigate there, by instruments. IMC, VMC makes no difference AFAIK.
 
The "problem" occurs because there is so much GPS out there, controllers clear people direct without even thinking about it. I've even gotten IFR direct /U.

The legality of VFR GPS in IFR and whether you can ever legally accept a "direct" without IFR-certified equipment that lets you identify it aside, the practical reality is that ATC is not supposed to give you direct without radar, which acts as a safety net on "blowing" the clearance. And various forms of "wink-wink-nod-nod," including letting ATC know you don't have IFR direct capability "but it looks like a heading of..." and getting at least a pseudo-vector, have become commonplace.

Example: I was on an IFR flight plan in a /U airplane flying direct using only a handheld GPS. Ended up with an emergency and a diversion and a brief investigation. My direct clearance while /U wasn't mentioned anywhere along the way.

Was that because no one really cares so long as you stay on the proper course, or the dialog I had with ATC when I accepted the direct, or the fact that there was never an enforcement action of any type? Your guess is as good as mine.
 
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/A with the club's 182. No choice, it doesn't have an approach certified GPS (heck, it doesn't have a GPS at all). /G with the 172, however. And /U for the Arrow (darned thing doesn't have DME, and the GPS isn't approach certified). Can you say, "be flexible"?
 
Ghery said:
/A with the club's 182. No choice, it doesn't have an approach certified GPS (heck, it doesn't have a GPS at all). /G with the 172, however. And /U for the Arrow (darned thing doesn't have DME, and the GPS isn't approach certified). Can you say, "be flexible"?
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Approach capability isn't required to file /G. It only requires enroute and terminal.
 
swingwing said:
I fly with a Anywhere Map GPS but always file /A because that is how my plane is equiped. Controllers are always clearing me direct to my destination of fixes along my route that I can't navigate to without use of the GPS. I usually respond "unable I'm /A" I get the feeling GPS is so common that controllers assume everyone has one.

My question is on a IFR flight plan can I legally fly direct using my handheld GPS?
Click to expand...

You can legally fly direct using whatever you choose to use.
 
i only file /A when i'm flying a plane with DME but not GPS
 
tonycondon said:
i only file /A when i'm flying a plane with DME but not GPS
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:yeahthat:

LOL... great answer Tony.

I was going to say, "I never file IFR" since I'm not rated, as a smart-ass comment, but up until now I'd resisted.

I file /A on VFR Flight Plans in our airplane for whatever that's worth... With "VFR GPS" in the comments field.

Whether the controllers understand that or not, is really impossible to say.

I'd hope it's clear enough for anyone with an IQ above 30, but hey... you never know... ;)
 
swingwing said:
I fly with a Anywhere Map GPS but always file /A because that is how my plane is equiped. Controllers are always clearing me direct to my destination of fixes along my route that I can't navigate to without use of the GPS. I usually respond "unable I'm /A" I get the feeling GPS is so common that controllers assume everyone has one.
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To answer the question in the thread title, I file whatever equipment suffix is appropriate for the avionics the plane is equipped with.

My question is on a IFR flight plan can I legally fly direct using my handheld GPS?
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There have been long arguments about that. For example:

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=66193
 
denverpilot said:
:yeahthat:

LOL... great answer Tony.

I was going to say, "I never file IFR" since I'm not rated, as a smart-ass comment, but up until now I'd resisted.

I file /A on VFR Flight Plans in our airplane for whatever that's worth... With "VFR GPS" in the comments field.

Whether the controllers understand that or not, is really impossible to say.

I'd hope it's clear enough for anyone with an IQ above 30, but hey... you never know... ;)
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A controller isn't going to see any comments, or anything else, filed on a VFR flight plan.
 
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swingwing said:
I fly with a Anywhere Map GPS but always file /A because that is how my plane is equiped. Controllers are always clearing me direct to my destination of fixes along my route that I can't navigate to without use of the GPS. I usually respond "unable I'm /A" I get the feeling GPS is so common that controllers assume everyone has one.

My question is on a IFR flight plan can I legally fly direct using my handheld GPS?
Click to expand...

The last I knew, an IFR clearance direct requires the controller to have you in radar coverage. Basically you are receiving vectors. A handheld GPS does not enable you to accept and fly anything you couldn't get if the handheld GPS was left in the car.
 
Bob Noel said:
The last I knew, an IFR clearance direct requires the controller to have you in radar coverage. Basically you are receiving vectors. A handheld GPS does not enable you to accept and fly anything you couldn't get if the handheld GPS was left in the car.
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I've been cleared direct many times with them knowing I'd be out of radar coverage for a portion of the flight. They always just tell me to report X miles from destination. This was /G
 
jesse said:
I've been cleared direct many times with them knowing I'd be out of radar coverage for a portion of the flight. They always just tell me to report X miles from destination. This was /G
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Those clearances were not in compliance with Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.
 
jesse said:
I've been cleared direct many times with them knowing I'd be out of radar coverage for a portion of the flight. They always just tell me to report X miles from destination. This was /G
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Off-airway that is outside the navaid volume can only be done with radar coverage.
 
roncachamp said:
Those clearances were not in compliance with Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.
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MSP Center does it all the time. They seem to know about the area in which they'll lose radar coverage and they don't say anything other then telling you it'll happen and to report x miles from wherever.

I've even picked up an IFR clearance from them in that area.

There really is nothing available to the pilot to know that there is a big lack of radar coverage in that area.
 
jesse said:
MSP Center does it all the time. They seem to know about the area in which they'll lose radar coverage and they don't say anything other then telling you it'll happen and to report x miles from wherever.
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Are we in controlled airspace?
 
flyingron said:
Are we in controlled airspace?
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Yes. It's pretty much the area around the Crypt MOA. They lose radar contact even at altitudes as high as 7,000 ft around there.
 
jesse said:
I've been cleared direct many times with them knowing I'd be out of radar coverage for a portion of the flight. They always just tell me to report X miles from destination. This was /G
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Were you using a handheld GPS?
 
jesse said:
MSP Center does it all the time. They seem to know about the area in which they'll lose radar coverage and they don't say anything other then telling you it'll happen and to report x miles from wherever.

I've even picked up an IFR clearance from them in that area.

There really is nothing available to the pilot to know that there is a big lack of radar coverage in that area.
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Are you saying it must be okay because Minneapolis Center does it all the time?
 
roncachamp said:
Are you saying it must be okay because Minneapolis Center does it all the time?
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Nope I'm saying they do it all the time. If it's not okay then it's not okay and that is news to me. I'm not afraid to admit learning something new.
 
jesse said:
Nope I'm saying they do it all the time. If it's not okay then it's not okay and that is news to me. I'm not afraid to admit learning something new.
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An off-airways routing, beyond NAVAID usable limits, requires radar monitoring, even for /G aircraft. That ZMP does not comply with that requirement is old news.
 
roncachamp said:
An off-airways routing, beyond NAVAID usable limits, requires radar monitoring, even for /G aircraft. That ZMP does not comply with that requirement is old news.
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Where in that area is "beyond navaid usable limits?"
 
jesse said:
No - not really. Some people get around this by asking for vectors to a fix via a heading they suggest to the controller. Personally I don't bother with that.

I haven't done much for /A because all the aircraft with DME that I have access to also have an IFR GPS. But I have flown IFR as /U which really limits your options these days.
Click to expand...



There is one whole approach that a /U airplane can legally fly at my home aiport. So if you want a plane that is really IFR capable in today's system, you want to atleast have DME.
 
jesse said:
MSP Center does it all the time. They seem to know about the area in which they'll lose radar coverage and they don't say anything other then telling you it'll happen and to report x miles from wherever.

I've even picked up an IFR clearance from them in that area.

There really is nothing available to the pilot to know that there is a big lack of radar coverage in that area.
Click to expand...


ZAB will do it to. I've been cleared direct RSK via heading 335 (or something like that...) in a /U aircraft. Of course, I was using my handheld 96C to monitor things.
 
roncachamp said:
An off-airways routing, beyond NAVAID usable limits, requires radar monitoring, even for /G aircraft. That ZMP does not comply with that requirement is old news.
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But does that apply to the published RNAV routes (T and R)? That is, if a center / approach had a radar outage, they could still legally clear aircraft (with appropriate GPS) to fly an RNAV route, couldn't they?
 
jwriteclub said:
But does that apply to the published RNAV routes (T and R)? That is, if a center / approach had a radar outage, they could still legally clear aircraft (with appropriate GPS) to fly an RNAV route, couldn't they?
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Of course, those are not off-airways routes, they're airways.

I think you mean T and Q.
 
Grant and I flew /A about a month and a half ago when my GPS antenna went on the fritz. It was fun flying approaches without a moving map nor a 2nd radio. Good chance to practice some cockpit management skills.
 
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