Do you correct a tower controller ?

Scrabo

Scrabo

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Scrabo
I was a backseat passenger yesterday, we departed the local airport and the PIC started a north bound turn, the tower controller suddenly called our call sign and stated that he previously told us to extend our upwind before turning north.

All on board were confused but later when we played back the LiveATC recording, he had issued that instruction to a different aircraft but it was us that he decided to chew the b**ls off.

So what would you do ? My PIC wanted to call the tower the next day and have them pull the official tapes, me, I think it's just going to p**s the tower guy off.
 
I'm not sure it's worth doing, especially if this is at a home (or frequently visited) airport. Guy will just have it out for you then. Just chalk it up to an accident, people are human.
 
its a safety item and people make mistakes, so i would have disputed with him and if he escalated it to pulling tapes he would see hes wrong.

Days after the fact. meh. Stand up in the moment, if you can without using all the bandwidth.
 
Only you or the PIC can answer that. The controller isn't going to write you up so its not like you'll hear anything official from it. If you call the tower and tell the supervisor to review the tapes, nothing is going to happen to the controller in question. Maybe if lack of awareness or professionalism has been a trend with them they might get a slap on the wrist.

Really, as long as you feel comfortable in knowing you did the right thing, no point in taking it further.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I'm not sure it's worth doing, especially if this is at a home (or frequently visited) airport. Guy will just have it out for you then. Just chalk it up to an accident, people are human.
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Every tower guy I've met has been very concerned and quite professional about safety, and will tolerate and perhaps even welcome a respectful correction.

If it was enough to chew me out or give me a phone number and I knew for certain he was in error, I'd want to discuss it with him.

I did this once. Tower gave a taxi clearance without really intending to. He gave me a phone number to call since he presumed I taxied without a clearance. I called, and it resolved with him getting some more training.
 
MAKG1 said:
Every tower guy I've met has been very concerned and quite professional about safety, and will tolerate and perhaps even welcome a respectful correction.

If it was enough to chew me out or give me a phone number and I knew for certain he was in error, I'd want to discuss it with him.

I did this once. Tower gave a taxi clearance without really intending to. He gave me a phone number to call since he presumed I taxied without a clearance. I called, and it resolved with him getting some more training.
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I'm not saying it's a certainty that the controller would seek retribution, just a possibility. However, trying to get someone in hot water over some brief radio spat like it's going to provide a "teaching moment" to the controller is a bit twisted. If he had an issue, call the tower and ask to speak with him soon after the infraction. Waiting days after a spat which didn't even result in the tower giving the PIC a phone number to call in order to raise hell is silly, imo. Unless there was a serious safety issue that resulted from it, just let it go.
 
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How about filing a Nasa Asrs form, this is what it is for, save a copy of the ATC file.
 
If it was a brief snit, grant him some grace, forget it. If he was a serious jerk, give HIM a number to call. If you don't hear from him, send the audio to the tower supervisor.
 
You should talk to him personally and let him know that you were offended by being chewed out when it was not you who made the error. If he does not apologize or admit his error then escalate it to his supervisor.
 
File ASRS. If it was egregious, talk to the tower supe before they reuse the tapes.
 
Holy crap fellas. You would think that the controller ate your first born. Simply broadcasting that you believe that the instruction was for another aircraft and not for you should have done it. If the guy was a jerk about it, then by all means ask to speak to the supervisor and keep in mind that the "jerk" very well may have been serving in that capacity at the time. As a former tower chief controller, I would never authorize pulling tapes unless there was an incident which warranted it. In this case if nobody got close, then it didn't warrant it. But in any case, you have 15 days before the "tape" is erased. BTW, it isn't tapes anymore, it is a digital recording in most areas so simply note the time of the event in zulu time and then call the supervisor with that information if it goes that far.
 
I'll correct them and possibly do some paperwork when a mistake leads to endangering my skin, tin, or ticket.
 
Whether you file ASRS or not, go up to the tower and talk to the guys in person, make friends.
We all make mistakes. We all are human. (I hope)
Once you make friends with the guys, you can mention that they accidentally chewed your a** out. They might have already gone over the tapes with the supervisor anyway, you don't know.
I try to visit our local tower from time to time. The guys up there are there for hours on end with nobody else to talk to but dumba** students and damn furners so they often welcome visitors to break up the boring routine. But then again, our tower guys are very friendly and cool. (this is Texas afterall, the friendliest state)
 
I would have just told the controller at the time that I thought his instruction was for another aircraft but I'll comply if he really wants me to. No big deal, really. People make mistakes.
 
Much ado about nothing. Sounds like the guy in the tower made a mistake, but we as pilots make them too. If I called the tower or approach control every time they made a mistake, I would be on the phone every third flight. Conversely, they could give me a phone number to call on a regular basis if they really wanted to pick on me, as I'm far from perfect.

As long as it wasn't something that jeopardized safety, reduced separation or caused an incursion, I'd just let it go.
 
I had a much more escalated event at a Class D with a training controller (didn't know it at the time). They were landing RWY 17 and had at least one in the pattern, 4 holding short for IFR release and 3 on extended final for 17 (IR practice). My instruction was cleared straight in RWY 35:eek: as I was south of the field. Controller was seriously behind and the IFR releases were chomping at the bit or in short nearly all of the transmissions were being stepped on EXCEPT my clearance. Again, I was south of the field and could easily join the downwind for 17 and had to nearing final as there was an aircraft on the runway rolling out and 2 short finals (no way opposite direction would fit). I joined #2 behind the closed traffic aircraft for 17 and was IMMEDIATELY chewed out for the next 40 seconds straight and sent to the "penalty box" performing four 360's on the downwind, the entire time the controller telling me it would have fit/worked. As frequency was congested, and transmissions were still getting stepped on, I didn't fight on the radio. The FBO is next to the tower, so I paid them a visit. The tower supervisor met me before I could even get to the door and basically indicated that the trainee should have had me join the downwind and that I did the right thing given the circumstances. I filled out an ASRS anyway. If that Class D had been uncontrolled, I believe it would have been smoother that morning:confused:
 
I landed at my home 'drone recently and took the first taxiway (I live to work on shortfield landings) and tower told me to turn off at first right, taxi north on Bravo. That's all he said. Never said "Taxi to Bravo 14, hold short 35Right." Airplane behind me lands, he gives him specific taxi instructions. I taxi up Bravo, never told where to hold short or anything, so I continue up Bravo (which never intersects a rnwy.) Tower guy tells me I missed my turnoff, I politely responded that he did not give me one, but that he issued the same instructions to the guy behind me twice. Tower says "You're not listening, you need to listen for your tail number." Guy behind me gets on the horn and says, "Uh, tower, he's right. You kept calling my number, and we thought it was weird that you never told him where to hold short." Tower didn't say a word or apologize. Go figure.
 
Tower controllers, well controllers in general, have a big ego. I never did and I never needed mine stroked like so many others I've met over the years.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Sent you a PM. By the way, anyone know how do get an IA stripped of his license?
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If you have a valid reason and the evidence, there is a place called the FSDO that you can go to. If you want to remain anonymous, call the FAA Safety Hotline at 800-255-111. The face-to-face method is usually better.
 
A little a chewing for thier mistake. Not really worth the time or effort in the end, is it?
 
Norman said:
Did he violate an FAR or you just pi**ed at the cost of his services?
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How do I make this long story short?

Last time I flew my plane was March 30th. I asked to be put on the schedule back in early February. They didn't start my annual until April 18th making the excuse that they forgot and there were planes ahead of me. The IA came for my records for review and AD search on April 20th. My mechanic and I did the entire checklist for the annual. The magnetos took two weeks to send and get back from Montana. All the other parts were in and installed within a week. The only face I see and the only person who will answer his phone and/or texts is my mechanic. The IA will not answer his phone or reply to texts. Last Thursday my mechanic said that I could put the plane back together which I did and was finished Friday morning. Friday night the mechanic and the IA met for beer at a bar and my mechanic called me and said that the IA had found an AD which required the torque links to be removed, stripped and inspected for cracks. The IA has had my records for 46 days and just then had "found" the AD. Last Saturday I removed the torque links, stripped them and made them available in my hangar. My mechanic came by on Monday afternoon and did the inspection. I painted them that night and installed them Tuesday and told the mechanic they were finished. All inspections are complete. I STILL do not have the sign off from the IA and my mechanic said that the IA couldn't get the sticker to print and had ordered ink. I suggested the IA do it the old fashioned way and use a pen. As of this writing, I STILL do not have a sign off. It has been 54 days since the start of the annual and I don't have a plane to fly.

I left out the discussions I've had with my mechanic who bears the brunt of my anger.

So to answer your question Norman, he hasn't violated any FARs that I know of and I'm quite happy with the cost of $350 which I'm willing to pay and have offered to pay several times over the last month. What I'm NOT happy with should be obvious.


Apologies for the hijack
 
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Scrabo said:
I was a backseat passenger yesterday, we departed the local airport and the PIC started a north bound turn, the tower controller suddenly called our call sign and stated that he previously told us to extend our upwind before turning north.

All on board were confused but later when we played back the LiveATC recording, he had issued that instruction to a different aircraft but it was us that he decided to chew the b**ls off.

So what would you do ? My PIC wanted to call the tower the next day and have them pull the official tapes, me, I think it's just going to p**s the tower guy off.
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Not exactly the same situation but once I took off from Brokhaven on a short trip to Hartford. I climbed out and contacted approach and asked for flight following. Usual procedure and then ATC said, "radar contact 2 miles north of Hartford." I politely responded "did you mean 2 miles north of Brookhaven?" He came back on and said, "yup what did I say?" I said "you said 2 miles north of Hartford." He came back on and said, "well I guess I did-- I was typing Hartford into the computer." I chuckled and said "totally understandable." He came on chuckling and said, "well you are radar contact now 3 miles north of Brookhaven."

The point is, ATC makes mistakes and if you talk to them as people they get it.
 
danhagan said:
I had a much more escalated event at a Class D with a training controller (didn't know it at the time). They were landing RWY 17 and had at least one in the pattern, 4 holding short for IFR release and 3 on extended final for 17 (IR practice). My instruction was cleared straight in RWY 35:eek: as I was south of the field. Controller was seriously behind and the IFR releases were chomping at the bit or in short nearly all of the transmissions were being stepped on EXCEPT my clearance. Again, I was south of the field and could easily join the downwind for 17 and had to nearing final as there was an aircraft on the runway rolling out and 2 short finals (no way opposite direction would fit). I joined #2 behind the closed traffic aircraft for 17 and was IMMEDIATELY chewed out for the next 40 seconds straight and sent to the "penalty box" performing four 360's on the downwind, the entire time the controller telling me it would have fit/worked. As frequency was congested, and transmissions were still getting stepped on, I didn't fight on the radio. The FBO is next to the tower, so I paid them a visit. The tower supervisor met me before I could even get to the door and basically indicated that the trainee should have had me join the downwind and that I did the right thing given the circumstances. I filled out an ASRS anyway. If that Class D had been uncontrolled, I believe it would have been smoother that morning:confused:
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Sounds like they have some issues there. A controller making a mistake is one thing. Blaming the pilot for it is another thing. Going on a 40 second rant while the pattern goes to sheet is a whole different thing. The supe meeting you on the ramp and blaming it on the trainee is yet another thing. If it was in fact a trainee, then he had a trainor plugged in with him who didn't seem to be doing his job by letting it escalate that far. Going down to meet you on the ramp before you get in the door could have been an apology or it could have been "damage control"
 
I don't know what it was about my old tail number, maybe it was the way I said it, or the way it was written on the tail...whatever.

The reg number was N8045W. The "5" looked sorta like an "S" so I'd constantly get 8045SW (especially at Class D airspaces with no radar) or some mixup of the numbers like 8504W, or any combination thereof. I "always" corrected the controller, for no other reason then to eliminate ambiguity/doubt in the air.

I've also occasionally been cautioned by ATC that there are other aircraft with similar numbers and to pay close attention, so I know they have my best interests at heart around here.

I take two approaches really: If I checkin and immediately get a response with the wrong number, I'll respond with the right one as a gentle reminder:

"Approach, Cherokee 8045W, 1600"
"Cherokee 8504W, Approach, radar contact (where I am) (at my altitude), resume own navigation to XXX"
"Own navigation to XXX, that's 8045W"

Usually they'll figure it out and call me back saying "Sorry 8045W" or ask me to read the tail number back..etc. In the event I'm wrong, they'll tell me that too.

The other way if I'm unsure is to just say "Approach was that last call for 8045W?"

Haven't had a problem or "approach/tower-rage" over corrections in the 300 or so hours I've been flying.
 
Caramon13 said:
I don't know what it was about my old tail number, maybe it was the way I said it, or the way it was written on the tail...whatever.

The reg number was N8045W. The "5" looked sorta like an "S" so I'd constantly get 8045SW (especially at Class D airspaces with no radar) or some mixup of the numbers like 8504W, or any combination thereof. I "always" corrected the controller, for no other reason then to eliminate ambiguity/doubt in the air.

I've also occasionally been cautioned by ATC that there are other aircraft with similar numbers and to pay close attention, so I know they have my best interests at heart around here.

I take two approaches really: If I checkin and immediately get a response with the wrong number, I'll respond with the right one as a gentle reminder:

"Approach, Cherokee 8045W, 1600"
"Cherokee 8504W, Approach, radar contact (where I am) (at my altitude), resume own navigation to XXX"
"Own navigation to XXX, that's 8045W"

Usually they'll figure it out and call me back saying "Sorry 8045W" or ask me to read the tail number back..etc. In the event I'm wrong, they'll tell me that too.

The other way if I'm unsure is to just say "Approach was that last call for 8045W?"

Haven't had a problem or "approach/tower-rage" over corrections in the 300 or so hours I've been flying.
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Accepting the clearance with a "that's N8045W" emphasized is fine IMO when things are obvious. In your example where it was in response to your check in, it's pretty obvious he just misspoke the call sign and didn't have the wrong aircraft. As long he acknowledges that with the correct one you're good. Verifying that the clearance was for you before you accept it is better most of the time. There have been fatal accidents from "wrong call sign." There have been many loss of separation incidents from bungled call signs that don't make the news.
 
luvflyin said:
Accepting the clearance with a "that's N8045W" emphasized is fine IMO when things are obvious. In your example where it was in response to your check in, it's pretty obvious he just misspoke the call sign and didn't have the wrong aircraft. As long he acknowledges that with the correct one you're good. Verifying that the clearance was for you before you accept it is better most of the time. There have been fatal accidents from "wrong call sign." There have been many loss of separation incidents from bungled call signs that don't make the news.
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Right exactly. I make sure to listen and verify. I have had times where immediately following a check-in the controller responded to a few other planes and got back to me. And in that same situation I've also had times where they have goofed on the tail number and either myself or another pilot chimed in to check.

I don't mind sounding stupid or triple checking as it's my butt on the line.
 
ON THE AIR is never a good place to quibble about procedures. Correction should be limited to immediate safety issues.

As pointed out in this and other threads if you feel there is an issue, note the time and frequency and call the facility during the next business day and talk to the supervisor/QA person. They'll be glad to investigate, gives the supervisors something to do so they will feel useful.
 
Caramon13 said:
Right exactly. I make sure to listen and verify. I have had times where immediately following a check-in the controller responded to a few other planes and got back to me. And in that same situation I've also had times where they have goofed on the tail number and either myself or another pilot chimed in to check.

I don't mind sounding stupid or triple checking as it's my butt on the line.
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Yup. Nothing will put a controller down the sheeter faster than always responding to the last transmission he heard. Sometimes while you're checking in , someone else needs to be turned now. Checking in and getting an immediate response, but it's for another airplane' is a situation that has more potential for something to go wrong. Throw in some similar sounding call signs and the potential gets worse. You don't sound stupid to anyone who knows better. Don't give that a second thought.
 
colojo said:
I would have just told the controller at the time that I thought his instruction was for another aircraft but I'll comply if he really wants me to. No big deal, really. People make mistakes.
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+1. For me, it would be corrected on the spot and dropped. No need to go back to it after the moment.
 
luvflyin said:
Sounds like they have some issues there. A controller making a mistake is one thing. Blaming the pilot for it is another thing. Going on a 40 second rant while the pattern goes to sheet is a whole different thing. The supe meeting you on the ramp and blaming it on the trainee is yet another thing. If it was in fact a trainee, then he had a trainor plugged in with him who didn't seem to be doing his job by letting it escalate that far. Going down to meet you on the ramp before you get in the door could have been an apology or it could have been "damage control"
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The supervisor met me at their tower door, not on the ramp. I didn't call or anything ahead of time, but I guess they/he watched me park and saw me heading over. Supervisor couldn't do squat because of all the stepped on transmissions from the guys holding short. He could only watch as things unfolded, and after my "scolding" he did take over. My purpose wasn't to get peeved, only to say the on-air rant was non-productive no matter which party was at fault.

Training changes things ... our Class C now has new controllers. When they're on, they seem semi-taxed if GA is in their space as the heavy iron has already been lined up for them. I have to fly out of my way to avoid being vectored into Mexico as that is their "new" method of decreasing traffic (they have an LOA with Juarez Mexico). Last attempted vector to Mexican airspace there was literally ONE single Southwest departure (I was AGL 2500 and no where near the field). If I'm inbound from Austin to Dona Ana (5T6) transitioning their space, and I'm not vectored into Mexico then I'm held at 10,500 until I'm a few miles from my field:confused::mad:
 
Everyone makes mistakes, these controllers are always busy with a flight school on the field and for a lot of the students, English is not their first language - personally I think they do a damn fine job given the hand they are dealt.

My PIC friend thankfully "Elsa-up" after a few days.
 
Many times. Especially when it could be a safety issue.
I've heard the tower guys make some incredible blunders over the years.
 
It is not always easy to tell whether a tail # the controller is calling is yours and mangled or somebody else's. (from the discussions here)
From experience, I've been called a few times with the wrong tail # and didn't answer just to get the controller angry at me. I have also heard my tail number mangled (usually one digit) so I responded only to get the controller angry at me again for stepping on another airplane (which I could not hear because he was 200 miles away). So it is hit-n-miss, hard to predict. Use your best judgment but be forewarned, it might not be enough. :)
Now don't worry too much and go fly, it will be another gorgeous hot weekend.
 
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