Do I need a commercial cert?

C

colorado_rafter

Guest
I am self employed, and own a remote fishing lodge. I regularly fly in supplies when I make a trip out, including provisions for a small store I also own in that area that is a lifeline for those who live remote year round. When I am not there I rely on a friend to haul supplies in. He owns a 135 which works for both of us since when he has a pickup in my area, he flies up empty anyway.

I rarely fly others who aren't family, and in the rare instance others fly with me there is no exchange or expectation of money whatsoever. I throw items onboard for friends from town to bring to them if they ask, and again I have no expectation or accept compensation for it. I was doing my BFR this spring and the instructor doing the checkout at the end was rather rude in saying I needed a commercial certificate and was taking money from respectable commercial operators after he asked where I normally fly and that I was lucky he didn't report me to the FSDO. That made me feel like a criminal. Have owned the lodge for years, never considered a commercial certificate because I never took compensation for anyone elses person or property.
 
Not a lawyer, but that instructor just sounds bitter imho. Nothing you described sounds like a commercial operation you’d need a commercial license for. I fly myself to business meetings all across the country all the time with just a PPL. Sure, not the same but still, it’s your store and you haul items up when you fly out there anyways, which indicates the trip would go ahead regardless of you hauling things, hence its incidental. Again, not a lawyer but looking forward to hearing more opinions here from those with legal expertise or just a better understanding of the regs.
 
Are you accepting compensation of any kind (not just $$) for flying people or cargo?

www.aopa.org

Commercial Pilot Certificate

Standards for commercial aeronautical activities
www.aopa.org

I would make contact with your fsdo, get to know them, run your (planned) activities past them for approval.
That way you know you're good to go AND when Mr. Meddlesome 'blows the whistle', things will go really smoothly for you.
 
colorado_rafter said:
I am self employed, and own a remote fishing lodge. I regularly fly in supplies when I make a trip out, including provisions for a small store I also own in that area that is a lifeline for those who live remote year round. When I am not there I rely on a friend to haul supplies in. He owns a 135 which works for both of us since when he has a pickup in my area, he flies up empty anyway.

I rarely fly others who aren't family, and in the rare instance others fly with me there is no exchange or expectation of money whatsoever. I throw items onboard for friends from town to bring to them if they ask, and again I have no expectation or accept compensation for it. I was doing my BFR this spring and the instructor doing the checkout at the end was rather rude in saying I needed a commercial certificate and was taking money from respectable commercial operators after he asked where I normally fly and that I was lucky he didn't report me to the FSDO. That made me feel like a criminal. Have owned the lodge for years, never considered a commercial certificate because I never took compensation for anyone elses person or property.
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Assuming it went pretty much the way you laid it out, that's a lousy CFI. Obviously, don't use him again. If I was your CFI for this, I'd be happy to sit down and help walk through the exact details and refer to regulations and chief counsel interpretations to try to come up an answer or solution. Not just accuse you, because it does seem like you are in a gray area especially with transportation of people and/or other people's cargo. But as always, the details matter.
 
On your next BFR, consider a new rating? If you have an interest in obtaining one that is.

Even with a PPL, as I recall, you need to pay your share of the flight, so if you went up with a friend, you could split the costs 50/50, if you went up with 3 friends then you would have to cover 25% (1/4th) of the flight expenses and your friends and family could cover up to 75%. Now what is “flight expenses”, I’m not entirely sure, fuel for sure, but could you place a value on insurance, depreciation of aircraft, mx fund, etc?

A lot of times things are said, and they are heard completely different, because of different variables (language, culture, education, mood, etc).

A commercial certificate doesn’t suddenly allow you to fly your own aircraft and accept compensation for it. So that wouldn’t resolve the question at hand if you were suddenly making a business out of it or earning a living from this.
 
Based on your description, no. Carrying supplies in for _your_ store is incidental to the business you are in. Carrying stuff for others just to be neighborly is also just fine. You're not making trips you wouldn't otherwise make and you're not accepting compensation for it (even in the form of the elusive "goodwill").

If you're more comfortable, get a commercial cert but also remember you need a 2nd class or better medical to exercise the privileges thereof.
 
mandm said:
On your next BFR, consider a new rating? If you have an interest in obtaining one that is.

Even with a PPL, as I recall, you need to pay your share of the flight, so if you went up with a friend, you could split the costs 50/50, if you went up with 3 friends then you would have to cover 25% (1/4th) of the flight expenses and your friends and family could cover up to 75%. Now what is “flight expenses”, I’m not entirely sure, fuel for sure, but could you place a value on insurance, depreciation of aircraft, mx fund, etc?

A lot of times things are said, and they are heard completely different, because of different variables (language, culture, education, mood, etc).

A commercial certificate doesn’t suddenly allow you to fly your own aircraft and accept compensation for it. So that wouldn’t resolve the question at hand if you were suddenly making a business out of it or earning a living from this.
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No, I accept no compensation or money for anyone else’s items on there, just being nice and throwing it on as a good gesture if I have room.

I own my businesses and plane 100% myself, I never considered a commercial certificate because nothing I haul that ends up for sale or consumption is for the lodge or my store. No clients or guests or their property have ever flown with me, they’re responsible for their own travel.

He may have had your interpretation of it, my business profits because I don’t have to pay for freight costs, but my interpretation of the regs is it is incidental. If I stopped flying tomorrow the businesses would still function, and is not dependent on me or my aircraft to fly.

I assume he knew the savings in cost with his background in the commercial world and that is what caught his ire
 
jsstevens said:
If you're more comfortable, get a commercial cert but also remember you need a 2nd class or better medical to exercise the privileges thereof.
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Keep in mind that you need more than that. Once you are taking passengers for hire in your own plane the FAA wants more oversight over the aircraft, which puts you in the category of a Part 135 operation.
 
The main test question is: "Are you flying for compensation or hire?" From what you stated, the answer is, "No." Some of your flying is incidental to your business which is allowed. And you're doing people favors - nothing wrong with that. There doesn't appear to be any commercial operation happening. Sounds like the CFI is being an ignorant jerk.
 
Joepilotmsp said:
I believe you’re fine. the CFI is an epic a hole.
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Appreciate the replies, I think I got my answer. I recall telling my DPE years ago when I got my license what my plans were.

I figured there must have been a rule change somewhere I was unaware of. I know of other people in the same position with lodges or stores that are out of the way who fly their stuff in with only a PPL.

Wont be going back to him. Asked around about him, he is a new hire pilot for skydivers. I went to school with the owner, will ask about how he’s doing the next time I see him and let him know what happened.
 
dbahn said:
Keep in mind that you need more than that. Once you are taking passengers for hire in your own plane the FAA wants more oversight over the aircraft, which puts you in the category of a Part 135 operation.
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He wasn't hauling passengers.
 
“I regularly fly in supplies when I make a trip out, including provisions for a small store I also own in that area that is a lifeline for those who live remote year round.”

“When I am not there I rely on a friend to haul supplies in. He owns a 135 which works for both of us since when he has a pickup in my area, he flies up empty anyway.”

“I throw items onboard for friends from town to bring to them if they ask”

Compensation includes Goodwill in the form of expected future economic benefit. What would an FAA lawyer think?
 
1. AOPA Legal Services.

2. Nothing about this sounds the slightest bit commercial to this non-lawyer, non-commercial pilot.

3. In accident investigations, disciplinary actions, etc., commercial pilots may be held to a higher standard (that is, punished harder) than private pilots. I looked into this in some detail when I was considering a commercial I knew I'd never use. I concluded that, while training for the Commercial might be good for me, actually holding the ticket wouldn't be.

4. As someone noted above, a commercial ticket doesn't get you out of trouble if you're flying your non-135 airplane for hire. In fact, it might make things worse because you got the commercial certificate anticipating it might be needed for this operation.
 
@OP - Maybe just talk less about it? Leave it under the radar where nobody really wants to go looking. Take away lesson next time the subject comes up with anybody including future CFI that you use your aircraft for personal aviation enjoyment in your [Remote Colorado?] area.

If a Federal Official asks to speak with you about then simply refer them to your lawyer and let your lawyer take it from there.

<shrug>
 
I think you’re fine. Remember that the FAA does not require that a private pilot keep any record of passengers or items carried, nor any financial records for flights. So...

1) Don’t keep any.
2) Don’t discuss it publicly (like on an Internet forum).
3) Don’t mention it to a CFI.
4) Don’t worry about it.

Many regulatory drownings could be avoided by not making waves in the first place.
 
Half Fast said:
I think you’re fine. Remember that the FAA does not require that a private pilot keep any record of passengers or items carried, nor any financial records for flights. So...
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It's not so much the FAA snooping around for violators. The OP already hinted at the problem from the instructor for "taking money from respectable commercial operators after he asked where I normally fly and that I was lucky he didn't report me to the FSDO."

It's either the revenue pilots protecting their turf that alert the FAA, or sometimes the FAA turns something up in their investigation of an accident or incident.
 
dbahn said:
It's not so much the FAA snooping around for violators. The OP already hinted at the problem from the instructor for "taking money from respectable commercial operators after he asked where I normally fly and that I was lucky he didn't report me to the FSDO."

It's either the revenue pilots protecting their turf that alert the FAA, or sometimes the FAA turns something up in their investigation of an accident or incident.
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See my four suggestions above. Even when you’re doing nothing wrong, people like this CFI can make your life unpleasant.
 
I would start with having the instructor clarify which regulation(s) he believes you’re violating. Merely not giving business to commercial operators doesn’t violate any regs that I’m aware of.
 
colorado_rafter said:
I was doing my BFR this spring and the instructor doing the checkout at the end was rather rude in saying I needed a commercial certificate and was taking money from respectable commercial operators after he asked where I normally fly and that I was lucky he didn't report me to the FSDO.
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And if you had a commercial ticket and a CFI he’d not ***** about you taking money from more established operators? Bet he would. There’s no pleasing some people.
 
I can tell you for certain what I wouldn't do:

Let'sgoflying! said:
I would make contact with your fsdo, get to know them, run your (planned) activities past them for approval.
That way you know you're good to go AND when Mr. Meddlesome 'blows the whistle', things will go really smoothly for you.
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F
Lindberg said:
I can tell you for certain what I wouldn't do:
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For sure. I’m n my one interaction with a FSDO I was surprised and a little amused at the guys’ knowledge and understanding of even the regs that were applicable to what I was there for (LSR-M certificate). Nice guys and all, but I don’t think they’re really the ones you’d want to ask an “is this OK” question.

Ever.
 
You're probably fine. One point I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned is common purpose. Even if you don't accept any compensation, direct or indirect, you and any passengers on board also need to have a common purpose for the flight.
 
Sounds like you're a good friend and family member. That CFI sounds like a d bag who doesn't understand that even if you had a commercial ticket, what he's insinuating describes a pt 135 on demand op, which is a great deal more complicated than just exercising commercial privileges.

Fly safe!
 
MRC01 said:
One point I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned is common purpose. Even if you don't accept any compensation, direct or indirect, you and any passengers on board also need to have a common purpose for the flight.
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Where does it say that?
 
MRC01 said:
You're probably fine. One point I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned is common purpose. Even if you don't accept any compensation, direct or indirect, you and any passengers on board also need to have a common purpose for the flight.
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Nope. I’ve flown people between airports for free when I had no purpose other than helping out. Spent two days doing it, as did numerous others, when we had some severe flooding a few years back.

The common purpose test only applies if you’re sharing expenses.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Where does it say that [common purpose]?
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Good question. It's been asked before, answered here:
www.pilotsofamerica.com

"Common purpose" and taking your friends up

Let's say you have your Private. You want to go flying and don't want to go alone. You call your friend up and see if he wants to come flying for a pro rata share. He agrees. Does this count as "common purpose?" And let's say the answer is "no, because you might of just been doing it to...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com

DaleB said:
Nope. I’ve flown people between airports for free when I had no purpose other than helping out. Spent two days doing it, as did numerous others, when we had some severe flooding a few years back.
The common purpose test only applies if you’re sharing expenses.
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If there is no compensation, direct or indirect, then the FAA tends to be more forgiving. But ultimately it depends on how finicky the FAA wants to get, if something bad happens.

PS: what I mean by this, is that saying the common purpose test only applies if you're sharing expenses, becomes a distinction without a difference because if something bad happens, somebody complains, and the FAA doesn't like what you did, they will get creative about finding a pretext for "expenses" - it may be logging flight hours or whatever. Plenty of examples of this in the case history, and links in the above mentioned thread from several years ago.
 
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MRC01 said:
PS: what I mean by this, is that saying the common purpose test only applies if you're sharing expenses, becomes a distinction without a difference because if something bad happens, somebody complains, and the FAA doesn't like what you did, they will get creative about finding a pretext for "expenses" - it may be logging flight hours or whatever. Plenty of examples of this in the case history, and links in the above mentioned thread from several years ago.
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the FAA has lots better things to do than manufacture violations that aren’t there. They’ve been very clear about what constitutes compensation and how much is allowed for well over 40 years. The problem is pilots who think they’ve come up with a new loophole and start committing the same violations that pilots have been committing for decades.
 
in the most simple terms, if the flight is incidental to your business, or in case of giving someone a ride, you were going anyway, then you have nothing to worry about.

as to giving rides, the simplest way to look at it is, if you are going to bugtussle, and your friend says i hear your going to bugtussle any chance i can hitch a ride? with no compensation thats perfectly fine. how ever, if you have no intention of going to bugtussle and someone say hey your a pilot, can you fly me to bugtussle? then it could be constude as holding out. granted, the need for a 135 would involve compensation, but there is not really a firm definition of holding out from the FAA. but from AC61-142:

10.2 What Constitutes Holding Out? “Holding out” is accomplished by any means that
communicates to the public that a transportation service is indiscriminately available to
the members of that segment of the public that it is designed to attract. There is no
specific rule or criteria as to how holding out is achieved. Instead, holding out is
determined by assessing the available facts of a specific situation. Advertising in any
form raises the question of holding out.
i wouldn't worry to much about it, what your doing I would say is perfectly legal, and the CFI was a moron.
 
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unsafervguy said:
how ever, if you have no intention of going to bugtussle and someone say hey your a pilot, can you fly me to bugtussle? then its holding out and you need a 135 certificate for that.
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Unless if said friend asked and then I think “oh, the weather really is nice, bugtussling ain't such a bad idea. Now I actually want to go bugtussle anyways… wanna ride with me?”
 
Lindberg said:
I can tell you for certain what I wouldn't do:
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Maybe its how you handle people. The organization I fly for has them on speeddial and first name basis - they are amazingly helpful & responsive and keep us out of trouble.
Something about honey, vinegar, flies - give it a try, turn on that charm we all know you have hidden.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Maybe its how you handle people. The organization I fly for has them on speeddial and first name basis - they are amazingly helpful & responsive and keep us out of trouble.
Something about honey, vinegar, flies - give it a try, turn on that charm we all know you have hidden.
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It has nothing to do with charm. It has to do with asking permission when you need none. What do you suggest the OP do if he contacts his local FSDO for permission and they tell him "no," even though he didn't need permission in the first place? I've spoken to enough ASIs to not have a great deal of confidence that any random one will give a correct answer about what the regs require.
 
MRC01 said:
You're probably fine. One point I'm surprised nobody has yet mentioned is common purpose. Even if you don't accept any compensation, direct or indirect, you and any passengers on board also need to have a common purpose for the flight.
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How would common purpose apply if I was doing EAA eagle flights, angel flights, pilots n paws or the other types of volunteer flights where I use my own plane while providing a "service." I do not believe you need anything more than a PPL and IFR.
 
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