Disagreement over $15 kills a $23,000 deal

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Salty
Not really. It's more complicated than that, but let me tell the story. I'm going to leave the vendors name out because, as you'll see, it's not straightforward their fault. Those that know me already know who it is anyway.

So, I've been trying to buy avionics for my CJ since November. Been working with the vendor to make sure I get everything I need to really bling it out. A large screen for front AND back, remote controllable everything, autopilot, you name it.

Problem one started pretty quickly and continued the entire experience. After the first consult I got crickets for weeks. No answers to emails. This happened a couple times in the 8 month journey. And each time we had to start over to some degree to remember where we were. Always I had asked a bunch of questions that never got answered, but I'd have forgotten why I even asked the questions by then. This went on until a month ago where we finally finalized the invoice. I agreed to pay and then things went quiet again for a couple weeks.

Then I get an email from an unknown person with the title "order" and "Can you send me your shipping address?". That's it. No signature, no company name, nothing. I had to click on the sent email address to see the @vendor.com to know who the heck it was. This did not impress me.

Another week and I get an email saying they are ready for payment, send payment for the invoice and they will call later for a CC for shipping charges. I have to ask for information on how to pay, then when I got it, I immediately paid. At this point I was not happy that I still had to pay for shipping which was never mentioned prior to this.

Another week goes by and I get a call saying they are ready to ship and need a credit card for the shipping. Shipping was over $200, which seems a bit ridiculous to me. Then, she says, "oh and $15 for sales tax on the shipping".

I argue and bit, and she says she''ll triple check and call me back. Calls back and says yup, we were audited and we now have to charge tax on shipping to Florida.

At this point, I'm fed up beyond belief with all the delays and unexpected costs, and I'm convinced Florida does not require tax on shipping. So I say "I'll make this simple. Figure out another way to reduce my price by $15 or cancel my order. I'm not going to pay it. Give me a discount on a cable, or something.

Rather than taking this as a simple way out of the problem (to my thinking 15 bucks on 23,000 is nothing, and I had not negotiated any sort of discount prior to this. Didn't ask for a buck off anything, or to waive a price on anything. I paid the full invoice as presented to me, they could simply give me a $15 discount and everyone is happy and we don't have to argue about state tax law.), they decided to die on the hill and simply agreed to send me my money back.

Now, I'm not unhappy with that as long as they give it all back. But I'm a bit shocked. I have another plane I'm about to order avionics for and talk to a lot of people about it. They lost a lot more than a $23k sale.

As for whether or not the tax is legit, I can't find an authoritative source that I trust on the matter. It seems it's possible they are correct. But, that's not the point of the story. Don't keep pushing your customer. At some point they will have had enough.
 
I do the same thing, from time to time. You can push a little, but if you go too far I am always fully prepared to walk.
 
I don't know anyone who feels good about getting nickel-and-dimed.
At a minimum they should clean up their billing and bake the shipping cost into the product so the optics are better.
You get free shipping on **** from Amazon and Bestbuy when you spend like $200. At $23000 I feel like they should be able to find a way to make it work.

But overall you might have done yourself a solid. A place with such a poor eye on customer service and professionalism is likely not going to be the place you want fulfilling warranties or answering support questions either.
 
According to the Florida State Department of Revenue, delivery services, when they are a part of a sale, are taxable. The purchaser, if they desire, can arrange for their own shipping or delivery and avoid sales tax on delivery. But, yeah, it seems like free shipping might have been a toss-in for such a large purchase.
 
chemgeek said:
According to the Florida State Department of Revenue, delivery services, when they are a part of a sale, are taxable. The purchaser, if they desire, can arrange for their own shipping or delivery and avoid sales tax on delivery. But, yeah, it seems like free shipping might have been a toss-in for such a large purchase.
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Just curious - does that apply when the sale itself is not taxable? Florida has a sales tax exemption on parts for small planes. (General question, not sure Salty’s CJ qualifies for the exemption.)
 
Username checks out.

Personally, I don't shop anywhere that charges shipping AND handling. So I get it.
 
So, I've been trying to buy avionics for my CJ since November.

Kind of says it in one sentence. Like ArrowFlyer86 said, if they aren't capable enough to do business with you since last November, you don't want to do business with them. Do you really want to pay now and find yourself in Nov 2025 still trying to get your parts?
 
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You did the right thing. Of course the question remains as to whether another shop will be any better.
 
Half Fast said:
You did the right thing. Of course the question remains as to whether another shop will be any better.
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^^^THIS^^^

I recently have been involved in a similar situation...and I too walked away from a vendor. I haven't done it yet, but after a year now and multiple tries, it's really starting to look like I'm gonna eat crow, and return to my original vendor...sad situation, but in a nutshell, the bad behavior that sent me away isn't AS BAD as the competition...
 
As we talking about parts suppliers such as Sarasota, or avionics shops like Sportys?
 
Salty said:
Not really. It's more complicated than that, but let me tell the story. I'm going to leave the vendors name out because, as you'll see, it's not straightforward their fault. Those that know me already know who it is anyway.

So, I've been trying to buy avionics for my CJ since November. Been working with the vendor to make sure I get everything I need to really bling it out. A large screen for front AND back, remote controllable everything, autopilot, you name it.

Problem one started pretty quickly and continued the entire experience. After the first consult I got crickets for weeks. No answers to emails. This happened a couple times in the 8 month journey. And each time we had to start over to some degree to remember where we were. Always I had asked a bunch of questions that never got answered, but I'd have forgotten why I even asked the questions by then. This went on until a month ago where we finally finalized the invoice. I agreed to pay and then things went quiet again for a couple weeks.

Then I get an email from an unknown person with the title "order" and "Can you send me your shipping address?". That's it. No signature, no company name, nothing. I had to click on the sent email address to see the @vendor.com to know who the heck it was. This did not impress me.

Another week and I get an email saying they are ready for payment, send payment for the invoice and they will call later for a CC for shipping charges. I have to ask for information on how to pay, then when I got it, I immediately paid. At this point I was not happy that I still had to pay for shipping which was never mentioned prior to this.

Another week goes by and I get a call saying they are ready to ship and need a credit card for the shipping. Shipping was over $200, which seems a bit ridiculous to me. Then, she says, "oh and $15 for sales tax on the shipping".

I argue and bit, and she says she''ll triple check and call me back. Calls back and says yup, we were audited and we now have to charge tax on shipping to Florida.

At this point, I'm fed up beyond belief with all the delays and unexpected costs, and I'm convinced Florida does not require tax on shipping. So I say "I'll make this simple. Figure out another way to reduce my price by $15 or cancel my order. I'm not going to pay it. Give me a discount on a cable, or something.

Rather than taking this as a simple way out of the problem (to my thinking 15 bucks on 23,000 is nothing, and I had not negotiated any sort of discount prior to this. Didn't ask for a buck off anything, or to waive a price on anything. I paid the full invoice as presented to me, they could simply give me a $15 discount and everyone is happy and we don't have to argue about state tax law.), they decided to die on the hill and simply agreed to send me my money back.

Now, I'm not unhappy with that as long as they give it all back. But I'm a bit shocked. I have another plane I'm about to order avionics for and talk to a lot of people about it. They lost a lot more than a $23k sale.

As for whether or not the tax is legit, I can't find an authoritative source that I trust on the matter. It seems it's possible they are correct. But, that's not the point of the story. Don't keep pushing your customer. At some point they will have had enough.
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$23k sounds rather reasonable for what you were buying. I doubt the retailer is highly upset you walked.
 
WDD said:
As we talking about parts suppliers such as Sarasota, or avionics shops like Sportys?
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We’re talking about an avionics manufacturer.

TCABM said:
Pretty sure $15 isn’t what killed the deal.
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Correct.
Half Fast said:
Just curious - does that apply when the sale itself is not taxable? Florida has a sales tax exemption on parts for small planes. (General question, not sure Salty’s CJ qualifies for the exemption.)
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By golly, I think you’re right. I believe they already charged me taxes they should not have on the equipment itself.

Country Flier said:
^^^THIS^^^

I recently have been involved in a similar situation...and I too walked away from a vendor. I haven't done it yet, but after a year now and multiple tries, it's really starting to look like I'm gonna eat crow, and return to my original vendor...sad situation, but in a nutshell, the bad behavior that sent me away isn't AS BAD as the competition...
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They’ve given me 8 months to figure out ways I can do it without them. This is kinda the point I was trying to make in my original post. If this had happened 6 months ago I wouldn’t have thought twice about $15.
 
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Meanwhile, over on avionicsofamerica:
"It took 8 months, but I fired that warbird pilot. Finally, I can focus on paying customers."
 
GeorgeC said:
Meanwhile, over on avionicsofamerica:
"It took 8 months, but I fired that warbird pilot. Finally, I can focus on paying customers."
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That’s the way they reacted, but it makes no sense. For whatever reason, they seem to not want my money. I worked pretty hard trying to give it to them. I’d planned to have this stuff installed months ago.
 
Meh, you spent 8 months dealing with these people, sounds like you beat a good price out of them. When I buy stuff like this shipping is almost always extra unless it specifically says "free shipping". You weren't upset about the shipping cost, just the tax. Sounds like a mountain out of a molehill. Eat a snickers bar.
 
PaulS said:
Meh, you spent 8 months dealing with these people, sounds like you beat a good price out of them.
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I spent 8 months trying to get them to tell me what I needed. I did zero negotiation on price. If they’d answered my questions the first time asked I’d have bought it in a month and paid the stupid tax without thinking about it.
 
If 23k is all blinged out for a plane, sure hate to put a label on what I spent on mine…

OP sounds like a pita customer.

You should give your proposed vendors your list of rules before starting to deal with them.

I was a lil b!tc# dealing with an upgrade on my plane too. Horrible experience, stressful. I will continue to deal with the devil i know though.

It would have cost an extra $15 to get what you wanted. Now you will go thru a lot more time and energy with another company. My principals require more money at risk to change plans.

Sounds like a sin of omission on their part.
 
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I think I've seen this before.
1) The person interacting with the customer isn't really that good to be honest. Doesn't get paid more or less if the customer is happy, sales are made, etc. The people who do care about profits are too far removed from the first part of the customer interaction that they have no idea what is going on.

Case in point. Years ago a very large apartment complex had a high vacancy rate. Couldn't figure out why. When a potential resident called about any vacancies, the receptionist who answered the phone was an angry, screechy lady who wouldn't give anyone the time of day. And no one could figure out what was going on....


2) Business is good with other customers, we can be lazy. Good times will never end. Why would I worry about reputation. It's all about the product after all. As long as I make a good widget, of course it will sell. I'm an engineer, and that just makes sense. The customer needs to respect me.
 
I have come to accept that GA vendor experience is random.

We have had one guy who seems to now his stuff figure out our engine vibe, only to find you can’t nail down a date or even a call back. It’s almost like he’s bipolar.

Our regular mechanic is easier to set schedule with but was the one who couldn’t figure out the engine issue and told us to just get an overhaul.

The FBO flight school unit was on the right track for our engine vibration but kept pushing us for bigger jobs, and still took a day and charge us for doing half the job.

Now we are dealing with a shop that has good reviews by those who know them, but which is vague about timeframe to start. Although he give good reasons as he’d have to pay the subcontractors he hires in, so why set a specific date when we are vfr and could be weather out for a week if the luck is bad?

Through it all one thing is certain you need to be patient and accept that sometimes customers relations in this hobby sucks.
 
4RNB said:
If 23k is all blinged out for a plane, sure hate to put a label on what I spent on mine…
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This is a two seat experimental tandem aircraft. And it did not include the gps or com radio.
4RNB said:
OP sounds like a pita customer.
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How? I responded quickly to every communication. Paid immediately the full invoice price. What more can I do to please my supplier?
4RNB said:
You should give your proposed vendors your list of rules before starting to deal with them.
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Sure. Don’t take 2 weeks to answer a simple question. Don’t force me to call and ask others if you still work there before you call me back. There done.
4RNB said:
I was a lil b!tc# dealing with an upgrade on my plane too. Horrible experience, stressful. I will continue to deal with the devil i know though.

It would have cost an extra $15 to get what you wanted. Now you will go thru a lot more time and energy with another company. My principals require more money at risk to change plans.
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Nope. Because of their screwing around for so long, I’ve already done most of the legwork. They did everything they could to drive me to other solutions. Again, that is the point I’m trying to make. I let them give me poor service for a long time, but eventually they went too far. This is not the kind of company I want to give my money to.
4RNB said:
Sounds like a sin of omission on their part.
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Ok.
 
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Salty said:
This is a two seat experimental tandem aircraft. And it did not include the gps or com radio.

How? I responded quickly to every communication. Paid immediately the full invoice price. What more can I do to please my supplier?

Sure. Don’t take 2 weeks to answer a simple question. Don’t force me to call and ask others if you still work there before you call me back. There done.

Nope. Because of their screwing around for so long, I’ve already done most of the legwork. They did everything they could to drive me to other solutions. Again, that is the point I’m trying to make. I let them give me poor service for a long time, but eventually they went too far. This is not the kind of company I want to give my money to.

Ok.
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Aren't there online retailers that allow you to point, click order, pay, be done? Shipping figured automatically, paid up front?
If you forgot why you asked questions, were they really important?
Your poor service could just as well read for being about multiple other lines of business, seems to be a new world order.
 
4RNB said:
Aren't there online retailers that allow you to point, click order, pay, be done? Shipping figured automatically, paid up front?
If you forgot why you asked questions, were they really important?
Your poor service could just as well read for being about multiple other lines of business, seems to be a new world order.
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This was a complex set up with a lot of moving parts on a strange plane that few understand. The sales rep would offer a solution and I would have questions on it based on our conversation at that moment. Waiting weeks between conversations on such topics is NOT a good way to get the sale completed. I would remember that he said something that made me wonder if the solution would work, but I would not always remember what exactly it was. Which brings up another problem. Many of his solutions would not have worked and even more often did not achieve my clearly stated goals. If I gave more details I would have to give away the vendor, and as long as they return all my money, I do not intend to do that.

Again, the fact that they refused to work with me on a small charge that I didn't believe was appropriate was just another issue on top of all the other issues I'd faced. I was just looking for a small gesture that we were in this deal together.
 
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Salty said:
This was a complex set up with a lot of moving parts on a strange plane that few understand. The sales rep would offer a solution and I would have questions on it based on our conversation at that moment. Waiting weeks between conversations on such topics is NOT a good way to get the sale completed. I would remember that he said something that made me wonder if the solution would work, but I would not always remember what exactly it was. Which brings up another problem. Many of his solutions would not have worked and even more often did not achieve my clearly stated goals. If I gave more details I would have to give away the vendor, and as long as they return all my money, I do not intend to do that.

Again, the fact that they refused to work with me on a small charge that I didn't believe was appropriate was just another issue on top of all the other issues I'd faced. I was just looking for a small gesture that we were in this deal together.
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I get it, but you put up with 8 months of BS, then torpedoed all your effort over $15. And you are protecting their identity. It just doesn't add up for me as to why, they certainly don't care.

I'm not above doing things like that, but I've learned to take a few breaths now, before launching the hand grenade.
 
PaulS said:
I get it, but you put up with 8 months of BS, then torpedoed all your effort over $15. And you are protecting their identity. It just doesn't add up for me as to why, they certainly don't care.

I'm not above doing things like that, but I've learned to take a few breaths now, before launching the hand grenade.
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As someone said above, I believe I dodged a bullet. They were absolutely taking me for granted. But I see little reason to name names. I'm happy with my interaction with them if they return 100% of my money and I don't have to deal with them any further. I can see their side of things, even though I totally disagree with them and don't wish to deal with a company that can't see my side.

I don't feel like I launched a hand grenade. I asked them to meet me $15 in the middle of a $23,000 transaction because of confusion over a tax charge. That's not unreasonable.

Thinking it over, I am tempted to name them solely because they are incorrectly charging their Florida customers taxes when they should not. I'd already over paid them by $1,500 and didn't realize it until someone here pointed it out to me.

Instead I can simply warn people to verify ahead of time what the shipping and taxes are going to be for their order and react accordingly.
 
I didn’t see the story that things were perfect and that it was $15 that caused an irrational, not in his best interest decision.

It was a minor but final issue on top of a growing list of problems that were foretelling a bad outcome.
 
Just a pet peeve of mind, if a vendor/company doesn't/can't respond to emails, which is simple, it's doubtful you'll get much other response from them. No reply, no buy.

marc
 
Half Fast said:
Just curious - does that apply when the sale itself is not taxable? Florida has a sales tax exemption on parts for small planes. (General question, not sure Salty’s CJ qualifies for the exemption.)
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Sales taxes on delivery applies only to taxable sales. (The exact language is "taxable personal property." The delivery price is considered as part of the delivered item. So if the item is tax-exempt, the delivery cost should be also.
 
chemgeek said:
Sales taxes on delivery applies only to taxable sales. (The exact language is "taxable personal property." The delivery price is considered as part of the delivered item. So if the item is tax-exempt, the delivery cost should be also.
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But I had completely forgotten that Florida exempts aircraft parts. None of it was taxable.
 
You dodged a bullet. If they can’t respond to emails promptly, or even within the work week, and professionally, they probably aren’t going to be even close to on schedule and comms will be poor.

With practically everyone who’s done any work for me, if they return calls or emails fairly promptly and in complete sentences and giving complete information, or explaining why they don’t have an answer yet, they wind up doing the job properly, as close to on schedule as possible, and don’t need to come back to fix things. When it takes a week to get a call or even text back and it’s just incomplete abbreviations and disjointed phrases, or “not sure when i can start my boat broke dn”, it’s 100% they will be weeks late, cut corners (literally), try to use cheaper materials than agreed upon and will leave a mess.
 
I too sometimes have to remind myself of how right I am. If I should ever doubt myself on being right, I remind myself that I am mistaken to doubt that, and remind myself I am never mistaken.
 
I kinda read it like this - neither of you trusted the other, at all, and you were both primed to walk away. The $15 was just the last straw. I get that from both sides, a bad deal isn't good for either party. I can only guess on their side. Maybe they were disorganized and they treat everybody like that, and people just accept it or get used to it. I've had vendors like that. Or maybe whatever you were doing was a one-off for them, and so it was never a priority to them. Maybe they were doing it because they thought they were doing you a favor, or they thought they'd do it in their spare time. From your side it's easy to see, X months of mostly being ignored, and then stupid nickle and dime stuff at the end.

I don't know if it's possible, but if I were spending 20+k on something I'd want to talk to the people on person, and at that price that would mean me going to them. I don't care what anybody says, in person interactions are a good way to start a business relationship.
 
I don't think 99% of the people post ever ran a business and think that it's all fun and games. Some customers are not worth the trouble. We all know this. Also avionics shops are at no loss for work, so I'm sure the schedule is already been filled with other work.

Also this is one side of the story. So I can't see how anyone is making an informed opinion when you have one side of the story.
 
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