Dinged on a Non Published TFR

kkoran said:
Why not require the organization responsible for the event (school, NCAA, NASCAAR, etc.) to notify the FAA of the the location and time prior to each event so a NOTAM could be put into the system? They could also advise if the event is cancelled or when it ends.

EDIT: I should have read through the entire thread before posting.
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Why not just delete the FDC NOTAM? Seriously. It doesn't provide any security. Dump it.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Actually a lot of pilots (self included) also complain about the definition or identification, or lack thereof, of "congested area." I'm sure a search of past threads might dredge up a complaint or three. But this thread is about one particular heartburn. :D
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Exactly, just because there is precident for the FAA making up the rules as it goes with the intention of busting a pilot doens't mean we should be ok with it:no:
 
Bob Noel said:
Why not just delete the FDC NOTAM? Seriously. It doesn't provide any security. Dump it.
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Because Congress passed a law mandating that the FAA restrict the airspace over certain sporting events.
 
Bob Noel said:
Why not just delete the FDC NOTAM? Seriously. It doesn't provide any security. Dump it.
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Because of crap like this:


http://www.boston.com/Boston/metrod...-explosives/ECftBKY6IX6HQif2DlDiNN/index.html

Federal authorities today arrested and charged a 26-year-old Ashland man with plotting to damage the Pentagon and US Capitol with a remote-controlled aircraft filled with C-4 plastic explosives.
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The argument will be that the TFR would have prevented this from stadiums and that is why he had to look at other targets. Or at least the argument will be that attacks from the sky are still being one of the methods of choice of terrorists.
 
kkoran said:
Because Congress passed a law mandating that the FAA restrict the airspace over certain sporting events.
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So get Congress to repeal the law.
 
ScottM said:
The argument will be that the TFR would have prevented this from stadiums and that is why he had to look at other targets. Or at least the argument will be that attacks from the sky are still being one of the methods of choice of terrorists.
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I think you know that a TFR wouldn't have had the slightest effect on the potential to fly a RPV into the crowd at a stadium. The most it could possibly do is allow the FAA to yank the RV pilot's certificate. Oh wait, the terrorists probably don't have certificates to yank.:yikes:
 
gismo said:
I think you know that a TFR wouldn't have had the slightest effect on the potential to fly a RPV into the crowd at a stadium. The most it could possibly do is allow the FAA to yank the RV pilot's certificate. Oh wait, the terrorists probably don't have certificates to yank.:yikes:
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See, your problem is you're making sense.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Get congress to repeal some of the TFR stuff to reduce the FAA budget.
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We both know that they're too risk averse. In their minds, something might happen and they'd then have to explain why they "took away the safeguard" (that doesn't actually safeguard).
 
I just read this thread. Wow. What a crazy rule.

As if I'm going to scour the web for football games, basketball games, NASCAR races, qualifying runs, pre-race activities, or whatever other BS is in that NOTAM.

I don't even know where to look for most of that stuff let alone would I take the hours to do it.

Since I routinely cruise VFR at about 2500 AGL I could easily come within 3NM of some event on accident. If the FAA wants my ticket for that they can have it. I would be done with the pricks and the flying hobby.

As other have said, the NOTAM doesn't stop criminals. It's just a PITA.
 
ebacon said:
I just read this thread. Wow. What a crazy rule.

As if I'm going to scour the web for football games, basketball games, NASCAR races, qualifying runs, pre-race activities, or whatever other BS is in that NOTAM.

I don't even know where to look for most of that stuff let alone would I take the hours to do it.

Since I routinely cruise VFR at about 2500 AGL I could easily come within 3NM of some event on accident. If the FAA wants my ticket for that they can have it. I would be done with the pricks and the flying hobby.

As other have said, the NOTAM doesn't stop criminals. It's just a PITA.
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The terrorists have won:sad:
 
I heard this third or fourth hand, so I wouldn't take it as gospel, but apparently none of the civilian acts at the Cleveland Air Show could fly Monday afternoon (Labor Day) because the Indians wouldn't cooperate. So I guess someone must be taking this seriously if the air show couldn't even get a waiver to make it happen.
 
JeffDG said:
No, it was not a joke.

The NOTAM is actually pretty clear. Just because FSS doesn't spoon feed you all the details doesn't mean the information isn't available.
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Wow. I haven't heard a Major Frank Burns imitation in YEARS! :D :rolleyes: :confused:
 
Bottom line for me is that the FAA needs to know the locations, and times of these stadiums, and include SPECIFIC Notams regarding EACH event along the route of flight. A blanket Notam is a joke.

There is a gap here, and it is the FAA's mandated job to fill this gap. To have to piece together information from varied sources in order to avoid a TFR incursion is absolutely ludicrous. The FAA needs to get off its ass, and do this now.

When the FAA created the phoney need to re-register aircraft, and collect their $5 fees, it created a huge workload. When I called about my re-registration date, after being hung up on 17 times, the woman with whom I spoke went on a political, anti-Republican rant about ths possibilities of an FAA shutdown, and losing her job/paycheck. Such entitlement mentality is disgusting. She could care less about getting the job done.
 
kkoran said:
Because Congress passed a law mandating that the FAA restrict the airspace over certain sporting events.
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Right, now lets get these idiots out of government and start repealing some laws.
 
bluesky74656 said:
I heard this third or fourth hand, so I wouldn't take it as gospel, but apparently none of the civilian acts at the Cleveland Air Show could fly Monday afternoon (Labor Day) because the Indians wouldn't cooperate. So I guess someone must be taking this seriously if the air show couldn't even get a waiver to make it happen.
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The INDIANS? Where in the NOTAM does it admit that the major league teams are in charge?

Oh. You mean they could have rescheduled the game?
 
mikea said:
The INDIANS? Where in the NOTAM does it admit that the major league teams are in charge?

Oh. You mean they could have rescheduled the game?
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There are always games during the air show, so I don't know what the difference was this year. I always remember seeing military jets flying over the stadium, but that could just be because the civilian acts don't need that much room to get turned back around and not because the civilian acts are always grounded during that time.
 
mikea said:
The INDIANS? Where in the NOTAM does it admit that the major league teams are in charge?
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Here: ( http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_5151.html )
FLIGHTS CONDUCTED FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES OF ANY EVENT, STADIUM OR VENUE AND BROADCAST COVERAGE FOR THE BROADCAST RIGHTS HOLDER ARE AUTHORIZED WITH AN APPROVED WAIVER.
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And here: ( http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/tsnm/general_aviation/sporting_events.shtm )
Applicants must provide to the Office of Airspace Waivers a letter of verification with a point of contact from the event sponsor (team), venue (stadium or raceway) or national broadcast rights holder (CBS, FOX etc), verifying the contractual obligation of the aircraft operator as required as an operational function of the event or venue.
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Mike I said:
Here: ( http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_9_5151.html )



And here: ( http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/tsnm/general_aviation/sporting_events.shtm )
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That's for waivers from the FAA for the broadcaster for things like the Goodyear blimp or a helicopter carrying broadcast TV cameras. It's not saying that the league can OK any flights.

The point is the TFR is really by the demand of the teams not wanting competing advertising they dont' egt paid fro, just as it is in Dizzyland. It's more more pony awarded after 9/11.

They're not saying that the teams are in charge, though.
 
Henning said:
Right, now lets get these idiots out of government and start repealing some laws.
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Right.

And here's the problem, most people agree the majority (if not all) of Congress needs to go.

However, when asking these same individuals they will say while they want to remove Congress, they feel their Congressman is doing "a good job".

This is why it's next to impossible to remove an incumbent.

Apathy rules.
 
Or they're afraid of voting for "the other side". The system's stacked to keep the worst possible candidates in jobs.
 
mikea said:
The point is the TFR is really by the demand of the teams not wanting competing advertising they dont' egt paid fro, just as it is in Dizzyland.
They're not saying that the teams are in charge, though.
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If the TFR is there by demand of the teams, and the teams can grant (some) exceptions, then I'd certainly say the teams are in charge. Matter of semantics. In any case, significant authority over airspace has been delegated to to commercial entities for commercial purposes.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Right.

And here's the problem, most people agree the majority (if not all) of Congress needs to go.

However, when asking these same individuals they will say while they want to remove Congress, they feel their Congressman is doing "a good job".

This is why it's next to impossible to remove an incumbent.

Apathy rules.
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In addtion to that, the people that would replace incumbents, irrespective of party, are typically numbnuts too, or become idiots, once they have a taste of power.
 
Anthony said:
In addtion to that, the people that would replace incumbents, irrespective of party, are typically numbnuts too, or become idiots, once they have a taste of power.
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I think that is the problem with the 'get the bums out' mentality. They are usually replaced by more bums.
 
Everskyward said:
I think that is the problem with the 'get the bums out' mentality. They are usually replaced by more bums.
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Many here have said this but I think it deserves repeating. The people that really, really strive for these elected offices, shouldn't be in them. However, I am just venting, without providing any suggestions for a solution. So here's mine. Make the legislatures, a part time, non-career position, that in and of itself can not sustain, nor improve one's lifestyle, but is more oriented towards true public service.
 
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Everskyward said:
I think that is the problem with the 'get the bums out' mentality. They are usually replaced by more bums.
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Not only that but the "bums" who get replaced are rarely selected carefully. A good person is at least as likely to get tossed out as a bad one if they happen to be up for election when tossing bums is a high priority. In fact that ones who get along on charisma and tap dancing often fair better than the ones with principles.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Does he actually fly IN (not TO) airshow performances? It sounded to me like he was saying he does.
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Not as far as I know, though I certainly admit that the way he phrased it made it sound as if he were a performer. I tried searching the ICAS site, and didn't find him listed.
 
Mike I said:
If the TFR is there by demand of the teams, and the teams can grant (some) exceptions, then I'd certainly say the teams are in charge. Matter of semantics. In any case, significant authority over airspace has been delegated to to commercial entities for commercial purposes.
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No, they're saying the local FAA office has to grant the waiver, and the broadcasters have to apply for it. We can expect that behind the scenes a call could be made from the FAA to the team, but it is the government agency that pretends to have the authority.
 
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Any banner towers applied and gotten waivers? I for one, miss seeing them do their thing.
 
Anthony said:
Bottom line for me is that the FAA needs to know the locations, and times of these stadiums, and include SPECIFIC Notams regarding EACH event along the route of flight. A blanket Notam is a joke.

There is a gap here, and it is the FAA's mandated job to fill this gap. To have to piece together information from varied sources in order to avoid a TFR incursion is absolutely ludicrous. The FAA needs to get off its ass, and do this now.

When the FAA created the phoney need to re-register aircraft, and collect their $5 fees, it created a huge workload. When I called about my re-registration date, after being hung up on 17 times, the woman with whom I spoke went on a political, anti-Republican rant about ths possibilities of an FAA shutdown, and losing her job/paycheck. Such entitlement mentality is disgusting. She could care less about getting the job done.
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The burden doesn't even have to be placed on the FAA. Simply advise the teams and local law enforcement of the process for filing for a game-related TFR. If the file, they have a TFR, if not they don't.

Don't put any more on the FAA's plate. They can barely handle what they already have.
 
" ANY PERSON WHO KNOWINGLY OR WILLFULLY VIOLATES THE RULES CONCERNING OPERATIONS IN THIS AIRSPACE MAY BE SUBJECT TO CERTAIN CRIMINAL PENALTIES UNDER 49 USC 46307. "

Anyone ever been penalized for straying over a game innocently. Doesn't look like they are really out for blood with this wording. They could easily have left out the knowingly or willfully language.
 
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