Dinged on a Non Published TFR

Ron Levy said:
The fact that it isn't a towered airport doesn't stop you from contacting the ATC facility with jurisdiction over that airspace for approval.
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I thought it was already verified that getting flight following isn't good enough. I'f I'm not IFR, what does ATC authorize me to do?
 
Mike I said:
It seems this is the only piece of information that cannot be obtained from an official source that's required to legally and safely complete a flight, no? Other TFR information, WX, and NOTAMs can be obtained from a briefer or official online FAA resources. Charts depicting airspace to be avoided are distributed from official sources (NACO). The information concerning restricted areas and MOAs is on the chart or can be obtained from a briefer.

What other piece of information, besides the "Stadium TFR", must a pilot obtain from unofficial sources to stay on the proper side of the law?
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Congested areas.
 
steingar said:
Bull**** TFR, and the Congresscritters who proposed it are morons. Sorry, no one can know about every last stadium, arena, drag strip and flea market along a course that could stretch hundreds of miles. Saying "it's the pilot's responsibility" is like saying it's someone's responsibility to see through walls or leap tall buildings in a single bound. Doesn't mean it's going to get done, just another new thing to ***** about. If the FAA was actually serious about this they would take the time to collate information about said events.
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I think Congress should make it the responsibility of the organizers of these events to report the hours and location to the FAA at least 24 hours in advance. If they don't do this, then they don't get a TFR.
 
Palmpilot said:
I think Congress should make it the responsibility of the organizers of these events to report the hours and location to the FAA at least 24 hours in advance. If they don't do this, then they don't get a TFR.
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You know, right there is the most reasonable suggestion I've read in this here thread.:idea:
 
Ron Levy said:
Read the NOTAM.
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I did. The discussion is now that you are outside the outer area of GRR or MBS, and since you aren't IFR, ATC is not authorized to give you instructions under VFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
If anyone knows of someone snagged for flying at 2500 AGL 2 miles from a sporting event without violating some other rule or airspace, I'd like to hear about it.
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when i was in Iowa we were told by FSDO guys that every saturday in the fall with a home football game (At either Iowa City or Ames) resulted in at least one TFR bust. ATC would see a 1200 go through and follow them to where they landed
 
So, I presume that nobody here every flies below 1,000' agl, because FSS and the FAA cannot/will not tell you what a "Congested Area" is right? And never fly under a cloud VFR...I mean you can't receive, from an official source, how far you are below that cloud, right?
 
tonycondon said:
when i was in Iowa we were told by FSDO guys that every saturday in the fall with a home football game (At either Iowa City or Ames) resulted in at least one TFR bust. ATC would see a 1200 go through and follow them to where they landed
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touch n go and kill the transponder on the go? :confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
Ron Levy said:
If anyone knows of someone snagged for flying at 2500 AGL 2 miles from a sporting event without violating some other rule or airspace, I'd like to hear about it.
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Then why did you characterize that as a "buzz job"?
 
JeffDG said:
Tell me where, in statute or regulation, it says the FAA has to spoon feed you every piece of information you might ever want to have, when that information if readily available from other sources?
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It's not polite to trivialize the concerns of others by characterizing them as a desire for "spoon feeding." :nono:

The point is that there SHOULD be a statute or regulation that says the government can't place flight restrictions on pilots without providing specifric information as to the times and locations affected. You may call it spoon feeding; I call it JUSTICE.
 
And make VIP NOTAMs require 180 days notice.
 
JeffDG said:
So, I presume that nobody here every flies below 1,000' agl, because FSS and the FAA cannot/will not tell you what a "Congested Area" is right? And never fly under a cloud VFR...I mean you can't receive, from an official source, how far you are below that cloud, right?
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congested areas don't turn on and off, TFRs do

Clouds are an even weaker example
 
Ron Levy said:
It is what it is. Unless you can get Congress to force a change, either learn how to find the games (the AOPA web site is a big help) or accept the consequences if you buzz a sporting event.

No-Whining-Button-(0384).jpg
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Excuse me sir, but in a republic, "whining," as you call it, is how we get things changed.
 
JeffDG said:
So, I presume that nobody here every flies below 1,000' agl, because FSS and the FAA cannot/will not tell you what a "Congested Area" is right? And never fly under a cloud VFR...I mean you can't receive, from an official source, how far you are below that cloud, right?
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Yellow areas on sectionals are a good indication of what the FAA will define as a Congested Area where one would want to be above 1,000' agl.
 
Ron Levy said:
This was not the FAA's idea -- they just promulgate a rule they were required to make, so rattling the FAA's cage is pointless.
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So it's not the FAA's role to publish these TFR's for airspace issues?
 
Mike I said:
Yellow areas on sectionals are a good indication of what the FAA will define as a Congested Area where one would want to be above 1,000' agl.
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The FAA has specifically said that such areas are not controlling.

They've ruled beaches as congested areas, and small numbers of people as an "open air assembly of persons" for the purposes of that rule.

You could be flying along in the middle of North Dakota at 600' AGL and fly over some farmers having coffee in the field, and violate the 1,000' AGL rule.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was inspired by all the whining.
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Seriously...someone should write that up and submit it to the FAA through the docket system.

That's the most workable solution I've ever seen to the problem...
 
What a cluster.

Yes, I am whining I guess.
 
Just think how stupid this stuff looks to a prospective pilot after they get a few lessons in.

No wonder no one wants to take up flying as a hobby.

Typical new businessman/aircraft owner/flight student:

"So, if I accidentally bust one of these uncharted, unannounced TFRs they can take my license away from me indefinitely? I've spent $10K for this training, and I bought an airplane to use with it, and you're telling me you CFI's aren't the loudest bunch of people complaining and using every possible resource you have through your professional organizations to get this stopped? What the hell is wrong with you people?"
 
Mike I said:
Yellow areas on sectionals are a good indication of what the FAA will define as a Congested Area where one would want to be above 1,000' agl.
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I wish that were true. Unfortunately, the NTSB has said that as few as three homes can qualify as a congested area. :(

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2008/pc0810.html

I've heard that the yellow areas on sectionals are intended to indicate areas that are lighted up at night. I would be surprised if the sectionals were up-to-date in their depiction of them though.
 
JeffDG said:
Seriously...someone should write that up and submit it to the FAA through the docket system.

That's the most workable solution I've ever seen to the problem...
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But wouldn't it take an act of Congress?
 
Palmpilot said:
But wouldn't it take an act of Congress?
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Ever seen a government agency refuse to enforce stupid things Congress passes? I have.

FAA could easily just have an unpublished but well-known "opinion" that they have better things to do than bust people for Stadium TFR's.

Plenty of laws on the books that go unenforced, all the time.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If I want to go north, I have the no-fly zone to the right (Canada - does not recognize S.P. rules), the class B to the left and above, and the stadum airspace in between.

I don't go that way if there is a chance of a game. There are only two miles to climb from less than 3000 ft (one step of the class B floor) to greater than 3600 but less than 4000 feet (Stadium and B ). Too easy to eff up while circling for altitude over Zug island.

Going around means going all the way around the class B. I find someplace south or west to fly to.
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Why not file and open a flight plan, establish flight following and fly east of Windsor around the Bravo?
 
EdFred said:
I did. The discussion is now that you are outside the outer area of GRR or MBS, and since you aren't IFR, ATC is not authorized to give you instructions under VFR.
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You've been listening to Steven roncachamp too much. they can indeed provide the necessary authorization. And, FWIW, flight following is not necessary, either -- Ann Arbor Tower provides approval for the Big House at Michigan, and they don't even have radar.
 
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RMCN172RG said:
Why not file and open a flight plan, establish flight following and fly east of Windsor around the Bravo?
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Canada does not recognize the drivers license medical sport pilot option.

Could I get away with it? Sure. But it would be a violation of Canadian regulations.
 
Palmpilot said:
Excuse me sir, but in a republic, "whining," as you call it, is how we get things changed.
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I'm not going political here, but if your definition of a republic is where whining results in the government changing the law, your definition is very different than mine.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm not going political here, but if your definition of a republic is where whining results in the government changing the law, your definition is very different than mine.
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Your definition of whining is very definitely different from mine.
 
Ron Levy said:
You've been listening to Steven roncachamp too much. they can indeed provide the necessary authorization. And, FWIW, flight following is not necessary, either -- Ann Arbor Tower provides approval for the Big House at Michigan, and they don't even have radar.
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True, but that is within the class D limits, so they would have authority. Right base for 24 puts you right over the stadium. MOP is class G at the surface.
 
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