I would bet any amount of money that you'd be willing to match that there are pilots flying on first class medicals who lied on previous medical applications.
Did not know about ADHD restrictions when I got my medical. What do I do?
dbahn
Pattern Altitude
It's an odds bet. Your risk of getting caught for lying is low, but the odds of being caught for lying go way up when there's an accident or incident that opens the door for a closer FAA examination. When that does happen you're doomed, expecially in a revenue pilot situation. And don't forget about a "snitch", which can be a spouse, a co-worker, a business competitor or anyone else that may want to see you grounded.
With current medical record sharing among providers and institutions there can be a number of "flaws" in your own personal record, and under the intense scrutiny of an FAA examination you'll have to prove that every one of those is incorrect.
With current medical record sharing among providers and institutions there can be a number of "flaws" in your own personal record, and under the intense scrutiny of an FAA examination you'll have to prove that every one of those is incorrect.
That’s a complete and intentional misrepresentation of what I said, but outright lying to make your point is clearly a very common strategy on your part.
If you consider catching a felony conviction a reward, we’re just different people.
UTLonghorn_1979
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I’m not even going to bother if my point is going over your head. Have a good evening.
UTLonghorn_1979
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Your exact quote:
mryan75:
“This has nothing to do with the subject at hand, however the most brilliant human being I know (and it’s not even close) has a severe psychiatric condition. Major, major case of bipolar disorder. You wouldn’t even know it talking to him. He is in good medical care. He’s an attorney, and I would have zero issue whatsoever with the FAA hiring him for a position in his area of expertise. When the FAA starts hiring people with severe psychiatric conditions for flying positions, be sure and let us know.“
You said “You wouldn’t even know it talking to him. He is in good medical care.”
Since a GP, or treating physician, doesn’t talk to the AME unless specifically made aware of an issue, and as required by the FAA, in your example, this severely bipolar person could easily get their sports pilot license. Maybe even their class 3 if they outright lie about their situation.
I’ve NEVER said I agree with this means of skirting the situation. I’ve said that at least 5 times. If you listen as “well” as you read, I hope you’re not flying in congested, radio call heavy airspace.
It’s not, you aren’t capable of making a point I couldn’t understand. To say “the FAA rewards dishonest behavior” because you can fly illegally by committing a felony and lying to it is patently absurd.
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Ah, so after intentionally misrepresenting what I said half a dozen times you’re finally honest. Maybe we’re getting somewhere.
What I said, once again for emphasis:
DFH65
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If I were king. I would eliminate all FAA medicals. The system doesn't work anyway. Before someone chimes in with I don't want to share the sky with people who are unfit...Let's face it if you have enough money and time you can almost get an SI for just about any condition. If you are willing to lie you can almost assuredly get a medical and if you never have an incident fly your whole life without an issue (I don't recommend this). The reality is that seemingly healthy (more since the clot shot) people drop dead every day. The system the way it is set up forces people to not seek medical attention when they need it. Now that I am on Basic Med I don't worry about going to the doctor when I have an issue I just go and get it resolved. When I was on class 3 I would put it off until I had no choice for fear the doctor would note something wrong in the paper work or prescribe me something that was going to be an issue. Your a pilot not a medical doctor you can't possibly know what might trip you up with the FAA.
We sadly live in a world where more and more people want to be regulated, want to be told what to do by the government it is sad. Live life. Sometimes bad things happen. You can't control everything and who wants to.
We sadly live in a world where more and more people want to be regulated, want to be told what to do by the government it is sad. Live life. Sometimes bad things happen. You can't control everything and who wants to.
Lindberg
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You make a good case for requiring disclosure of all medical records at each FAA medical exam. It seems invasive as hell, but maybe we'll get there someday.
UTLonghorn_1979
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I don’t like the idea either, but if no one on this forum is lying, then nothing to worry about, right? It would certainly put every applicant on a level playing field with no way to “skirt” the system, as some put it here.
Lindberg
Final Approach
It's normal for you to be ****ed that some don't caught. So is the solution invasive scrutiny of all applicants? What affects would that have on FAA processing times? Would it positively impact safety?
UTLonghorn_1979
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Yes, I’m ****ed that I’m working the system with 100% transparency and grounded and people with far more dangerous health issues, and not disclosing them, are flying right now. I think that’s a legitimate anger/frustration.
IF the FAA TRULY cared about safety, then yes. Unfortunately it was the lack of scrutiny and applicants failing to disclose mental or physical issues that has lead to this now “invasive scrutiny” for honest applicants. So, you can blame those, literally handful, of bad actors for where we are.
You’re honestly asking if more medical records scrutiny will increase safety? If the answer is NO, then why have any level of medical verification at all beyond being driver's license eligible, or have the need/requirement for the FAA to review the same info that your HIMS AME has already reviewed? Shouldn't the HIMS AME be able to issue standard or SI right there? That also answers your question about "What affects would that have on FAA processing times?" I.e. the AME/HIMS AME should be given ultimate authority in virtually every deferred instance.
And by the way, there is literally no reason to have a GP AND an AME. The mere fact that most people don’t have the same Dr acting is both shows that people don’t want to be honest about their health.
I’m playing devil’s advocate and taking the argument that everyone here is taking that’s never been subject to a deferral for whatever reason.
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There is no conclusive study to say that FAA medicals help at all.
The most recent formal study (link here), found that pilots under BasicMed do not have a statistically significant increase in accidents. The next logical step is eliminating medicals for class 3 entirely and perhaps study it in 5 years like we did with BasicMed. Among other benefits, the pro pilots with Class 1/2 would obviously see a great reduction in wait times with OKC not wasting time on small plane pilots with prostate cancer.
The D/L medicals have proven to be equal to the CL3.
The most recent formal study (link here), found that pilots under BasicMed do not have a statistically significant increase in accidents. The next logical step is eliminating medicals for class 3 entirely and perhaps study it in 5 years like we did with BasicMed. Among other benefits, the pro pilots with Class 1/2 would obviously see a great reduction in wait times with OKC not wasting time on small plane pilots with prostate cancer.
The D/L medicals have proven to be equal to the CL3.
MauleSkinner
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So make every GP an AME, which would probably result in the need for more FAA oversight? Or make the AME your GP, so that it’s tougher to schedule an aviation medical?
UTLonghorn_1979
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IMO, the ironic and big point completely missed by all the "haters" who mock people complaining about the HIMS process and mock the inconvenient fact the people (surprise, surprise) lie on their applications to get class 1-3 medical certs, is those being honest and upfront about their situation and overall fitness to fly are far more likely to be honest about their fitness to fly in any given situation.
If you aren't going to be honest with the FAA, even with the risk of potentially getting caught and in trouble, you're far less likely to be honest with yourself in daily self evaluation, personal minimums, etc.
UTLonghorn_1979
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I have no idea how you made the above leap. Every AME I've ever met, or heard of, is also a GP...acting as an AME isn't their sole medical practice. Think about it, the population of people needing an AME is a fraction of a fraction of the US population needing a GP.
Why would this cause more oversight by the FAA, or anymore than there is right now? Do you have any issues getting in with your GP once every 2 years, or 5 years, as the case may be? There are more GPs vs. AMEs, so allowing for GPs to act as AMEs would make this process faster.
Lindberg
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That's likely not even an option for most people. But even when it is there's lots of reasons not to choose it.
My current AME is a urologist and does flight physicals part time.
My first AME was, coincidentally, a family doctor and happened to be my PCP for years before I started flying. He's now a full-time AME.
The last AME I went to before my current one is also a full-time AME.
My PCP from the time I was in highschool until he retired three years ago was an internist, and he wouldn't even do a basic med exam because he had no way to test hearing or vision.
I've known women who use their gynecologist as their PCP since that's usually where they go annually anyway.
Being an AME is a medical specialty, and like any other, requires specialized training, equipment, and focus.
Conversely, AMEs aren't in a position to diagnose and treat you, since they're acting on behalf of the FAA.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Setting aside the voluminous other issues for a moment, are you aware of how much initial and ongoing training goes into being an AME? How are you going to make all the GPs do that?
UTLonghorn_1979
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Any actual Doctors want to step in here?
bbchien
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NO!
dbahn
Pattern Altitude
That's insulting to those of us that HAVE had deferrals and HAVE played by the rules. Not only that I'm on Basic Med now and still self-grounding (forever) because I'm following the regulations
It seems a lot of doctors get into it because they're pilots themselves, thus the interest. All the AMEs I've been to did it as a side gig, though the last one I saw before going basicmed had retired from family practice but continued doing medicals part time out of an office in the walled off back of his hangar. He was doing medicals (and flying his Bonanza) up until about age 95 or so.
UTLonghorn_1979
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I agree, I'm in the same position, under deferral myself because I played by the rules. It seems that the majority on this forum that have never been through the deferral/HIMS process think we're complaining warrantlessly.
It's funny/ironic too because I've have some suggest that I could have just flown under LSA/sports pilot had I not gone the class 3 route and told the FAA about my zoloft use, but those same people likely would have said I was skirting the system and/or lying to the FAA by utilizing that loophole.
Half Fast
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You should expand your horizons and meet more AMEs. Your sample set is so small that it's causing errors.
There are few enough GPs who are willing to do even a Basic Med exam. What makes you think they'd be willing to act as AMEs? Most doctors will see no upside to the hassle.
UTLonghorn_1979
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I'm happy with my AME. No need.
I guess let's just do nothing, keep the system as it is and be "okay" with a system that inherently creates a moral dilemma/personal conflict for pilots to be honest about their mental and physical health.
I'm clearly barking up the wrong tree. I look forward to getting my SI and berating those in my current positions once it's no longer my problem.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not at all.
I agree with Dr. Bruce that we need to shift more authority from OKC to the AMEs, thereby reducing the backlog and wait times for SIs and removing at least a little of the motivation to cheat. One way I've suggested to do that would be to expand the CACI list and require deferrals only for those items that are on the Basic Med big three list. IOW, if any physician can issue Basic Med for some condition (say sleep apnea, or diabetes, or simple depression, etc.), then a trained AME should certainly be able to exercise his medical judgement and issue a Class 3 for the same condition.
But I don't expect the OKC bureaucrats to willingly surrender any of their authority peacefully. It's going to require a coup d'etat, and I believe Bruce might be plotting one soon.....
UTLonghorn_1979
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I agree with all that. Let the actual boots (AMEs) on the ground do the heavy lifting for the majority of cases, even for the bulk of those that currently require a deferral to OKC/DC.Not at all.
I agree with Dr. Bruce that we need to shift more authority from OKC to the AMEs, thereby reducing the backlog and wait times for SIs and removing at least a little of the motivation to cheat. One way I've suggested to do that would be to expand the CACI list and require deferrals only for those items that are on the Basic Med big three list. IOW, if any physician can issue Basic Med for some condition (say sleep apnea, or diabetes, or simple depression, etc.), then a trained AME should certainly be able to exercise his medical judgement and issue a Class 3 for the same condition.
But I don't expect the OKC bureaucrats to willingly surrender any of their authority peacefully. It's going to require a coup d'etat, and I believe Bruce might be plotting one soon.....
The AME/HIMS AME should have much more authority to be able to review all the FAA requested documents, HIMS specialist evaluation comments and recommendations, and have authority to issue the appropriate medical certificate themselves vs. needing to then send to D.C., where it sits for 6-12 months before being reviewed and thus the evaluations are already no longer current. The FAA then requests additional/current evaluations, which will then be noncurrent again by the time they review the requested updated "current" evaluations.
This alone would most likely reduce the process down to 90-120 days, in most instances, instead of the 12-24 months, which seems to be the new normal.
Deferral to D.C. should be the extreme exception to your above suggested solution/process. Possibly only those applying for class 2 and 3 medical certificates should be subject to mandatory deferral as opposed to the GA private pilot flying for leisure or personal transport.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
And they’re going to kick the rest of their patients to the curb so they can be both AME and GP for their pilot population?
Allowing the GPs to act as AMEs would require training them all in aviation medical issues, and I can’t imagine every one of them is going to put the effort into it that the average current AME does, so the FAA would most likely feel the need for tighter oversight.
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UTLonghorn_1979
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Fair enough comments. Perhaps I underestimated the amount of time each AME patient takes up for a practice.
To be clear, the normal, non-deferred process is great, no complaints there whatsoever.
However, the instant it’s deferred and out of the hands is the AME, it’s a freaking nightmare and model of inefficiency.