Did I commence an approach without authorization?

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pstan

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Stan
IFR, I had been cleared direct to an iaf at 3700 feet, but without an approach clearance, a common occurence for this location. There are not routes to this iaf, and no taa. Coms were busy, and just prior to the iaf, atc advised me to "call when established on a portion of the instrument approach procedure". Rather than query this, and since I was at least a minute from the iaf, I replied with my call sign and "wilco". About 30 seconds later, a second request from atc, for the same. Since I was almost there, I decided to advise him I was "established on the approach". I think he did not reply, started to talk to other aircraft. Passing the iaf, I joined the Iaf to IF leg, and commenced descent to the minimum altitude for the segment. About a mile past the iaf and at 3200 feet or so, I was given "maintain 3700 feet til established on the approach, cleared rnav gps rw 36.

1. It occurs to me now, after, that maybe he did not hear my calls.

2. Was this proper pilot and atc procedures? What would you have done?
 
hawk37 said:
IFR, I had been cleared direct to an iaf at 3700 feet, but without an approach clearance, a common occurence for this location. There are not routes to this iaf, and no taa. Coms were busy, and just prior to the iaf, atc advised me to "call when established on a portion of the instrument approach procedure". Rather than query this, and since I was at least a minute from the iaf, I replied with my call sign and "wilco". About 30 seconds later, a second request from atc, for the same. Since I was almost there, I decided to advise him I was "established on the approach". I think he did not reply, started to talk to other aircraft. Passing the iaf, I joined the Iaf to IF leg, and commenced descent to the minimum altitude for the segment. About a mile past the iaf and at 3200 feet or so, I was given "maintain 3700 feet til established on the approach, cleared rnav gps rw 36.

1. It occurs to me now, after, that maybe he did not hear my calls.

2. Was this proper pilot and atc procedures?
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No.

What would you have done?
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I would have verified I was cleared for the approach before descending. What IAP is this?
 
I would delay descending on the approach until cleared, but if it came down to it and I couldn't establish radio communications I would shoot the approach, as that is what one is supposed to do.
 
It seems like he was directing you to intercept the approach course, although he seems to have been using non-standard phraseology. Barring an emergency or lost comm, until I heard "cleared for the approach," I would remain at my last assigned altitude.
 
When he asked you that last question about advising when on a part of the approach, I would have piped up and asked for a clearance. Otherwise how do you even know which approach to start.
Ha, once I was coming home and being stepped down, was at fl250 or so. The last part of the arrival, there was a mil airplane having an emergency on the uhf frequency. Everyone who tried to talk even on vhf was immediately told to shut up. My clearance limit was the vor over the field so I entered the hold, staring down at the airport which was in good vfr, 4 miles below and no way to get there!
 
The bottom line is that if you don't hear "cleared for the approach" you ain't.

There was a pilot around these parts a few years ago who, after being told to report established on the localizer, descended without his approach clearance. Faced enforcement since the result was a (potential?) loss of IFR separation with another aircraft. ("potential?" is because I never got far enough into it to find out whether there was an actual loss of separation).
 
hawk37 said:
1. It occurs to me now, after, that maybe he did not hear my calls.
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That's possible.

2. Was this proper pilot and atc procedures?
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I see nothing wrong with the controller's procedures, but the pilot should not have commenced the approach without an approach clearance.

What would you have done?
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Done my darndest to get that approach clearance out of the controller before reaching the IAF, with no response, squawked 7600 and flown the approach.
 
At the time, with a few ??? having popped up in my head as to what he wanted, I took the transmission "report when established..." as meaning I was, or had, been cleared past the IAF.

Ron, how can one be "established on a segment of the instrument approach" prior to the IAF in this case, without an approach clearance. Because that's what the controller asked, without issuing an app clearance. There are routes at all to the iaf from the enroute structure, no TAA. Perhaps he just thought he had already given the "maintain 3700 til on a segment...cleared app", then realized later he hadn't and gave it a bit late.

Normally, radar service is terminated prior to this IAF, and I'm sent to advisory freq.

I understand the instruction to "intercept the loc" does not mean cleared to descend.

Enough I guess. Next time I will be more particular in what I do, and in what I may ask.
 
Ron Levy said:
Done my darndest to get that approach clearance out of the controller before reaching the IAF, with no response, squawked 7600 and flown the approach.
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Not trying to second guess you Ron, but would it have been more appropriate to commence a hold at the iaf? After all, I did not really have a com fail, just couldn't get a clearance in time due to all the workload the controller had.

Well, maybe I am trying to second guess you, sorry.
 
pstan said:
At the time, with a few ??? having popped up in my head as to what he wanted, I took the transmission "report when established..." as meaning I was, or had, been cleared past the IAF. Ron, how can one be "established on a segment of the instrument approach" prior to the IAF in this case, without an approach clearance.
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Upon further review, I agree -- if not cleared for the approach, you can't report established on the approach because you can't commence the approach. I think maybe the controller forgot he hadn't cleared you for the approach.

As for holding at the IAF, you had been given an expected routing beyond the IAF but not an EFC or any indication of a delay, so flying the approach upon arrival makes sense to me in that specific lost comm scenario.
 
Ron Levy said:
As for holding at the IAF, you had been given an expected routing beyond the IAF but not an EFC or any indication of a delay, so flying the approach upon arrival makes sense to me in that specific lost comm scenario.
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+1, agree.
 
pstan said:
Ron, how can one be "established on a segment of the instrument approach" prior to the IAF in this case, without an approach clearance. Because that's what the controller asked, without issuing an app clearance. There are routes at all to the iaf from the enroute structure, no TAA. Perhaps he just thought he had already given the "maintain 3700 til on a segment...cleared app", then realized later he hadn't and gave it a bit late.
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What IAP is this?

Normally, radar service is terminated prior to this IAF, and I'm sent to advisory freq.
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Actually, it isn't normal to terminate radar service when aircraft are sent to CTAF.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, it isn't normal to terminate radar service when aircraft are sent to CTAF.
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How, pray tell, does a controller continue to provide radar service to an aircraft no longer on the controller's frequency? Or are you confusing the actual termination of radar service (which is automatic in this situation) with the requirement to tell the pilot that radar service has been terminated (which is not required, but is, in my experience, still done by most controllers)?
FAA Order 7110.65 5-1-13 said:
b. Radar service is automatically terminated and the aircraft needs not be advised of termination when:
...
2. An aircraft conducting an instrument, visual, or contact approach has landed or has been instructed to change to advisory frequency.
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Ron Levy said:
How, pray tell, does a controller continue to provide radar service to an aircraft no longer on the controller's frequency? Or are you confusing the actual termination of radar service (which is automatic in this situation) with the requirement to tell the pilot that radar service has been terminated (which is not required, but is, in my experience, still done by most controllers)?
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How long had you been without sleep when you wrote that?
 
roncachamp said:
How long had you been without sleep when you wrote that?
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So much for a straight answer from roncachamp.

For the rest of you, read what it says in JO 7110.65. When the controller sends you to CTAF, radar service is automatically terminated. Also, while the book says it's not necessary to tell you that, in my experience, most controllers do. So don't worry, pstan -- you've got it right.
 
Ron Levy said:
So much for a straight answer from roncachamp.

For the rest of you, read what it says in JO 7110.65. When the controller sends you to CTAF, radar service is automatically terminated. Also, while the book says it's not necessary to tell you that, in my experience, most controllers do. So don't worry, pstan -- you've got it right.
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I never hear "radar service terminated" when transferred to the tower at my home base. It doesn't seem likely but perhaps this is because the tower has a remote radar display? I was under the impression that one doesn't normally hear that except when landing at an uncontrolled field.

And JOOC, if radar service is terminated, does it automatically resume when you call back to ATC after a missed approach?
 
gismo said:
I never hear "radar service terminated" when transferred to the tower at my home base. It doesn't seem likely but perhaps this is because the tower has a remote radar display? I was under the impression that one doesn't normally hear that except when landing at an uncontrolled field.

And JOOC, if radar service is terminated, does it automatically resume when you call back to ATC after a missed approach?
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I got that at the tower in Santa Maria, CA SMX before they got approach radar. LA Center would clear me for the approach and then say "radar service terminated".
 
gismo said:
I was under the impression that one doesn't normally hear that except when landing at an uncontrolled field.
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I think the other exception and a place you might hear it would be at an airport with a tower but no radar all the way to the ground. I'm thinking of KEGE (Eagle, CO) as an example but I'm sure there are many more.
 
The devil's in the details. You'll never hear "change to advisory frequency" when being switched to an active Tower. But as others have pointed out, you might hear "RADAR service terminated, Contact XXX Tower 118.X".

And then there's those pesky part-time Towers that close down at night where the Tower frequency becomes the advisory frequency, and you'll only hear "Change to Advisory Frequency".

I got a number of night full-stop landings in over at KBJC after the tower closed down for the night last weekend.

DEN TRACON gave me advisory services across town (including a traffic call-out for the Denver Sheriff's Dept. Helicopter operating low-level over West Denver) and then I got the standard, "Change to advisory frequency."

They added "Squawk 1200" for good measure, even though it's automatic and implied by the "advisory frequency" switch.

Going back the other direction to the 24/7 Tower at KAPA, I got what seemed to be a normal "point out" handoff with only a "Contact Centennial Tower, 118.9", so I abbreviated my call-up: "Centennial Tower, Skylane 79M, landing, full-stop, with Delta."

Apparently DEN TRACON had NOT done the point-out on the phone line to KAPA because he replied with "Skylane 79M, your position?"

Knowing that he probably wasn't looking at the D-BRITE, "Skylane 79M is 3 north of Cherry Creek Reservoir, just handed off to you from Denver."

That got him to look at the screen. Oh lookie, he's on a discreet code and tagged headed my way. ;) How I could REALLY tell he saw the data block, was that he replies with...

"Skylane 1279M, cleared to land, Runway 35L."

Note: Because I was handed off, right or wrong, I hadn't used the full call sign in the initial call-up.

Now granted, it's home base and the night guys do have most of our tail numbers memorized (and where we park at), but this particular voice wasn't as familiar as the normal night weekday guy who works a number of shifts a week alone.

(How do I know? He had someone ask if they could visit the Tower one night and he explained there's only two nights a week where shifts overlap enough to allow a tour, but to call on the phone and they'd happily set something up for one of those nights.)

It's fun and educational to think through what the person on the other end of the radio is thinking/doing. The more you know what they're doing, the better you can truly communicate with them. I enjoy reading the Controller's manuals and procedures.
 
Ron Levy said:
So much for a straight answer from roncachamp.

For the rest of you, read what it says in JO 7110.65. When the controller sends you to CTAF, radar service is automatically terminated. Also, while the book says it's not necessary to tell you that, in my experience, most controllers do. So don't worry, pstan -- you've got it right.
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Okay, I'll give you a straight answer.

Ron Levy said:
How, pray tell, does a controller continue to provide radar service to an aircraft no longer on the controller's frequency? Or are you confusing the actual termination of radar service (which is automatic in this situation) with the requirement to tell the pilot that radar service has been terminated (which is not required, but is, in my experience, still done by most controllers)?
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A controller cannot continue to provide radar service to an aircraft no longer on the controller's frequency. Pilots are not normally told radar service is terminated when they're cleared for an approach and instructed to change to advisory frequency because it's assumed they understand radio contact with an ATC facility is required for radar services.

As to why most controllers issue this advisory to you anyway I can only guess, perhaps they recognize your voice or N-number.
 
gismo said:
I never hear "radar service terminated" when transferred to the tower at my home base. It doesn't seem likely but perhaps this is because the tower has a remote radar display? I was under the impression that one doesn't normally hear that except when landing at an uncontrolled field.
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Why doesn't that seem the likely reason? That's exactly why you're not advised that radar service is terminated. Aircraft are advised of radar service termination when they're told to contact an ATC facility that cannot provide radar services, such as a VFR tower without a radar display. If not given that advisory the pilot wouldn't know he was no longer receiving radar services. Radar service termination isn't necessary when instructed to change to a non-ATC frequency because pilots understand that radar service is provided by ATC. Well, most pilots understand this.

And JOOC, if radar service is terminated, does it automatically resume when you call back to ATC after a missed approach?
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No, you should be told "radar contact" when radar identification is reestablished.
 
denverpilot said:
They added "Squawk 1200" for good measure, even though it's automatic and implied by the "advisory frequency" switch.
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Well, it should be automatic, but it's not. ATC is required to instruct IFR aircraft that cancel IFR and do not want radar advisories, and VFR aircraft for which radar advisory service is being terminated, to squawk VFR.
 
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denverpilot said:
They added "Squawk 1200" for good measure, even though it's automatic and implied by the "advisory frequency" switch.
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You got a "squawk 1200" or "Squawk VFR" while on an IFR flight plan??? That doesn't sound right. ATC Handbook describes it as used for IFR cancellations where there will be no further radar service and for VFR flights when advisories are terminated.
 
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roncachamp said:
Well, it should be automatic, but it's not. ATC is required to instruct IFR aircraft that cancel IFR and do not want radar advisories and VFR aircraft for which radar advisory service is being terminated to squawk VFR.
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Steven, I could swear that a few months ago you said that there was generally no cost to a controller for letting an aircraft on approach keep an assigned squawk code after terminating radar service. The context was that on the many occasions when ATC doesn't say to squawk 1200 (which is about 50% of the time when shooting a practice approach into my home field), I would ask whether they wanted me to keep the discrete code or squawk VFR, and you said that there was no point to my doing that. I took that to imply that the controller's not saying to squawk VFR might well be intentional, since there was really no good reason to rescind the assigned code.

There have also been times that they have told me explicitly to keep the assigned squawk, which I find hard to understand if they are actually required to rescind it.
 
azure said:
Steven, I could swear that a few months ago you said that there was generally no cost to a controller for letting an aircraft on approach keep an assigned squawk code after terminating radar service. The context was that on the many occasions when ATC doesn't say to squawk 1200 (which is about 50% of the time when shooting a practice approach into my home field), I would ask whether they wanted me to keep the discrete code or squawk VFR, and you said that there was no point to my doing that. I took that to imply that the controller's not saying to squawk VFR might well be intentional, since there was really no good reason to rescind the assigned code.

There have also been times that they have told me explicitly to keep the assigned squawk, which I find hard to understand if they are actually required to rescind it.
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I don't recall saying anything like that, you'll have to find that discussion.
 
gismo said:
I never hear "radar service terminated" when transferred to the tower at my home base. It doesn't seem likely but perhaps this is because the tower has a remote radar display?
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I do every time at KSBY, which has nothing even resembling a radar display.
And JOOC, if radar service is terminated, does it automatically resume when you call back to ATC after a missed approach?
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Not until the controller calls "radar contact."
 
roncachamp said:
As to why most controllers issue this advisory to you anyway I can only guess, perhaps they recognize your voice or N-number.
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Maybe that's how they decide what to do there in Green Bay, but based on listening to TRACONs talking to other planes, it's SOP to say that for Patuxent, Potomac, Dover, Norfolk,...
 
Ron Levy said:
Maybe that's how they decide what to do there in Green Bay, but based on listening to TRACONs talking to other planes, it's SOP to say that for Patuxent, Potomac, Dover, Norfolk,...
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Unlikely.
 
Ron Levy said:
Whether it's likely in Green Bay, I can't say, but based on 20 years of flying in the Mid-Atlantic region, it happens all the time in the TRACONs I mentioned.
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It's unlikely to be SOP anywhere, it's likely just another misinterpretation by you.
 
roncachamp said:
It's unlikely to be SOP anywhere, it's likely just another misinterpretation by you.
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Have you ever considered adding value to a thread? Nit picking over the wording of things gets pretty old...

You could provide a lot of value here. Try it.
 
jesse said:
Have you ever considered adding value to a thread? Nit picking over the wording of things gets pretty old...

You could provide a lot of value here. Try it.
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I do provide a lot of value here, this isn't a matter of nit-picking over wording. If you can't recognize the difference it might be better if you ignored my messages instead of providing responses like the one above, which provided no value.

Have a nice day.
 
Termination of radar services is already implied when being handed off to the CTAF at a non-towered field, or when cleared for a visual approach into a towered airport.

If you're shooting an IAP into a non-radar TOWERED airport, you SHOULD hear 'radar services terminated' prior to the hand-off to tower.

Regarding the OP's question, I've been in the same boat on the GPS 19 into N07 (Lincoln Park, NJ), "cleared direct [IAF], report established on the approach..." (these were not vectors to the final app course).

Why he didn't clear me for the approach there and then, I'm not sure. There was nobody ahead of me going into the same airport, but perhaps there was someone else launching/arriving at nearby CDW or MMU (N07/CDW/MMU are considered a single one-in, one-out airport for IFR operations...it's a real treat).

This seems to be an IFR no man's land, being told to report established on the lateral track of an approach for which you haven't been cleared, and without receiving vectors to final. I guess "report established on the approach" is akin to being told to join the lateral track of the approach at the IAF?
 
roncachamp said:
I do provide a lot of value here, this isn't a matter of nit-picking over wording. If you can't recognize the difference it might be better if you ignored my messages instead of providing responses like the one above, which provided no value.

Have a nice day.
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I do recognize the difference. Ron was right, radar services are terminated. You are simply nit picking over if the controller says those words or not which is pretty pointless because it doesn't matter.

As to my response if I can get you to dial back your attitude, even just a notch, it would provide a lot of value for the community. Ultimately I get 1/5th of the decision as to what is value here or not.
 
roncachamp said:
Actually, it isn't normal to terminate radar service when aircraft are sent to CTAF.
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??? I think this is the key. You said specifically that radar service is not normally terminated when aircraft are sent to CTAF.

That is quite different than saying that it is not normal to inform the pilot that radar service is terminated.
 
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