"Descend Pilots Discretion Maintain..."

frfly172 said:
Another p****** contest over nothing. Acknowledge the instructions and comply.
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Pretty much what I do. The only thing I concern myself with is terrain, and modern avionics makes it easy to set a mistake. Outside of that, I don't really concern myself with whether an instruction is 'legitimate' or not.
 
Even though I was taught to report leaving an altitude, I agree that it seems unnecessary frequency clutter. I never hear anyone else doing it and based off what I've read here, it seems like others don't do it either. Thanks for the input everyone.

Not a p****** contest. I was asking if anyone else here also reported vacating an altitude on a pd descent. Isn't that the point of this forum to ask others in the aviation community and have a conversation about it?
 
Correct! Don't think I knew that AIM off the top of my head...I just thought it would be cool to prove Ron Levy wrong LOL :)
 
Velocity173 said:
6-6-2 of the controllers manual. Post # 70.
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Thanks for the reference! I will look that up. I'm just trying to figure out how it all works together...I'm sure all these 3 publications (FAR/AIM/ATC) have to decompose a problem from 3 different perspectives, but in the end they should all jive with each other.
 
FWIW, I asked my GoTo CFII guy about this very issue a few years ago while I was getting an IPC, he related to me that he didn't make the report (I had been doing so myself) but that sometime before when he was taking a ride with an FAA inspector the inspector called him on not making the report. So my friend said he called the controller he was working and asked if he (the controller) expected a report leaving and the controller said NO.
It seems to me that a reading of the FARs & AIM are pretty clear that you're required to report vacating a previously assigned altitude for a new'ly assigned altitude which in fact is what a pilots discretion descent IS, it's NOT like a cruise clearance or an approach clearance either of which you have no new'ly assigned altitude. So most pilots don't make the report and most controllers don't expect the report, I'm not so sure how that's reconciled with the plainly written requirements :confused:, I guess it's just one of those things, one of many where commonly accepted practice is contrary to the "book"?
 
Velocity173 said:
6-6-2 of the controllers manual. Post # 70.
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Hmm, ok, I checked the reference here : https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf

6−6−2. EXCEPTIONS
Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft
previously at that altitude has reported at or passing
through another altitude separated from the first by
the appropriate minimum when:
a. Severe turbulence is reported.
b. Aircraft are conducting military aerial
refueling.
REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 9−2−13, Military Aerial Refueling.
c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been:
1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent
at pilot’s discretion.
2. Cleared to CRUISE (altitude). However, do
not use Mode C to effect separation with an aircraft
on a cruise clearance.
NOTE−
An aircraft assigned a cruise clearance is assigned a block
of airspace from the minimum IFR altitude up to and
including the assigned cruising altitude, and climb/descent
within the block is at pilot’s discretion. When the pilot
verbally reports leaving an altitude in descent, he/she may
not return to that altitude.
REFERENCE−
P/CG Term− Cruise.
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Not sure how this relates to my contention, which is: I do not believe a controller will assign a "Pilot's Discretion" clearance in a non-radar environment ... This reference says pretty much that the controller cannot assign an altitude until the PD guy, IF he chooses to, decides to report leaving said altitude...but it does not say anything whether it's a radar or non-radar environment.
 
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LuisO said:
Not sure how this relates to my contention, which is: I do not believe a controller will assign a "Pilot's Discretion" clearance in a non-radar environment
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How do you reconcile your belief with 6−6−2.c.1.; "Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot’s discretion"?
 
LuisO said:
Hmm, ok, I checked the reference here : https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf



Not sure how this relates to my contention, which is: I do not believe a controller will assign a "Pilot's Discretion" clearance in a non-radar environment ... This reference says pretty much that the controller cannot assign an altitude until the PD guy, IF he chooses to, decides to report leaving said altitude...but it does not say anything whether it's a radar or non-radar environment.
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Chapter 6 of the .65 is the non radar chapter. You'll see slightly different verbiage but the same rule for PD separation in vertical application in chapter 5 . That chapter pertains to radar ops.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Chapter 6 of the .65 is the non radar chapter. You'll see slightly different verbiage but the same rule for PD separation in vertical application in chapter 5 . That chapter pertains to radar ops.
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Yup, got it. We cross-posted. Thanks again for pointing me there.
 
LuisO said:
Ok perfect! You're an ATC guy.
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I was.

So my guess is that the airspace is empty (as far as you know) so it's ok to issue them?
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It's ok to do whatever traffic permits and is consistent with Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control. In non-radar ATC, clearances typically allow descent at pilot's discretion. You need traffic at specific altitudes by specific points so clearances take the form "cross PHYXE at and maintain", or "cross BUMFK at or above, cross PODNK at or below, descend and maintain...", etc. As I explained in message #79, these descents are at pilot's discretion.
 
roncachamp said:
How do you reconcile your belief with 6−6−2.c.1.; "Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot’s discretion"?
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You have to read it all the way through:
Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when:
. . .
c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been:
1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot’s discretion.
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But if this only applies to non-radar ops then it doesn't seem germane.
 
Lindberg said:
You have to read it all the way through:

But if this only applies to non-radar ops then it doesn't seem germane.
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It is the same for radar ops, except the report does not have to be verbal, the mode c readout can be used in lieu of a verbal report. Using a discretionary climb/decsent for separation is a non radar procedure. The 7110.65 permits the use of non radar procedures in a radar environment if an operational advantage can be gained.
 
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Lindberg said:
You have to read it all the way through:

But if this only applies to non-radar ops then it doesn't seem germane.
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My short answer should have been that non radar procedures can be used when an operational advantage can be gained.

An example would be you are at 7000 and getting the heck kicked out of you by turbulence. An aircraft just below you at 6000 is in smooth air and just started a descent to 5000. Radar procedure require at least 1000 ft verticals separation is established between 5 and six before you start a descent to 6000. So the controller would have to wait until the other aircraft was at 5000 before clearing you to 6 thousand.

Non radar, as soon as the other aircraft reports or is observed leaving six thousand, then youcould immediately be assigned six thousand. Provided the two aircraft are of similar performance.
 
vintage cessna said:
Non radar, as soon as the other aircraft reports or is observed leaving six thousand, then youcould immediately be assigned six thousand. Provided the two aircraft are of similar performance.
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Non-radar, how would the other aircraft be observed leaving six thousand?
 
roncachamp said:
Non-radar, how would the other aircraft be observed leaving six thousand?
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Mode C. Unless my memory has failed me, when using this non radar procedure in a radar environment, Mode C could be used in lieu of a verbal report of vacating an altitude.
 
roncachamp said:
Non-radar, how would the other aircraft be observed leaving six thousand?
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I think a controller would ask for a report of leaving anyway, since that would be quicker than waiting for a change in Mode C, which lags real time.
 
roncachamp said:
Non-radar, how would the other aircraft be observed leaving six thousand?
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I believe I misspoke. It is not just a non radar procedure. The only difference is that non radar the controller would need a verbal report, radar that controller could use a verbal report or observe the Mode C change.
 
The example of a crossing restriction would be a non radar procedure used in a radar environment to gain an operational advantage.
 
Lindberg said:
You have to read it all the way through:

But if this only applies to non-radar ops then it doesn't seem germane.
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If you go to chapter 5 of the 7110. 65, which deals with radar the procedure is also listed except mode c can be used.
 
Why has this thread made it to 5 pages?

"Pilatus 12345 vacating FL200"

"Roger" or "thanks"
 
LuisO said:
There is NO mention whatsoever in that (very specific "Pilot's Discretion" AIM entry) that the pilot should report leaving the altitude that he was just given leniency to leave!!!
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AIM 5-3-3 Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.

(b) When an altitude change will be made if operating on a clearance specifying VFR-on-top.

(c) When unable to climb/descend at a rate of a least 500 feet per minute.

(d) When approach has been missed. (Request clearance for specific action; i.e., to alternative airport, another approach, etc.)

(e) Change in the average true airspeed (at cruising altitude) when it varies by 5 percent or 10 knots (whichever is greater) from that filed in the flight plan.

(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared.

(g) When leaving any assigned holding fix or point.
 
I love potential energy and hate giving it up. When I'm given a discretionary descent I usually start down right away, but at about 200fpm downward.

Generally a little time will pass and the controller will grump at me, at which time I'll descend faster.

But as a policy I hold on altitude as long as I can. Because Newton.
 
JimNtexas said:
I love potential energy and hate giving it up. When I'm given a discretionary descent I usually start down right away, but at about 200fpm downward.

Generally a little time will pass and the controller will grump at me, at which time I'll descend faster.

But as a policy I hold on altitude as long as I can. Because Newton.
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If he wanted you to descend faster he shouldn't have issued a discretionary descent.
 
Larry in TN said:
(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
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I believe this is satisfied when you acknowledge your clearance: "Leaving 7000 for 6000 at my discretion, N12345"

At that point your newly assigned altitude becomes 6000, even if you hang around at 7000 for a while. It doesn't make sense to have to tell when you actually leave. If it did, what happens if you stop at 6800 ? Tell him again you're leaving 6800 when you decide to keep going down? ...and so on.
 
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LuisO said:
I believe this is satisfied when you acknowledge your clearance: "Leaving 7000 for 6000 at my discretion, N12345"
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If you are still at 7,000' then you haven't vacated 7,000'.

va·cate
verb
gerund or present participle: vacating
1.
leave (a place that one previously occupied).
​
 
Larry in TN said:
If you are still at 7,000' then you haven't vacated 7,000'.

va·cate
verb
gerund or present participle: vacating
1.
leave (a place that one previously occupied).
​
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dis·cre·tion
dəˈskreSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the quality of behaving or speaking in such a way as to avoid causing offense or revealing private information.
"she knew she could rely on his discretion"
synonyms: circumspection, carefulness, caution, wariness, chariness, guardedness; More
2.
the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
"it is up to local authorities to use their discretion in setting the charges"
synonyms: choice, option, preference, disposition, volition; More
 
Larry in TN said:
If you are still at 7,000' then you haven't vacated 7,000'.
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While that may be true...it obviously is not a concern for ATC or they would not have given an "at pilot's discretion" descent. Once I acknowledge the PD descent, I can take my sweet time coming down or chop and drop. It's PILOT'S DISCRETION.

If ATC needed me out of my altitude and needed it NOW, they would have just told me to descend without the PD caveat.

"N12345..pilot's discretion...descend and maintain 6000"

"Pilot's discretion down to 6000...N12345"

Easy. If ATC actually needs to know exactly when I'm vacating, he'll ask for it....like "report leaving 9000" or "report passing 7000" or somesuch.
 
LuisO said:
the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
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You are free to decide when to vacate the previously assigned altitude. When you do, AIM 5-3-3 says that you should report doing so.


MikeELP said:
While that may be true...it obviously is not a concern for ATC
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It's obvious that it is not a concern to Steven and it is not a concern to ATC in some situations. Read Don Brown's Say Again? articles for a number of examples of when it is a concern. He specifically addresses the "report leaving" situation as well as many other AIM recommendations which many on the Red and Blue boards like to argue against.
 
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