"Descend Pilots Discretion Maintain..."

Larry in TN said:
It's obvious that it is not a concern to Steven and it is not a concern to ATC in some situations. Read Don Brown's Say Again? articles for a number of examples of when it is a concern. He specifically addresses the "report leaving" situation as well as many other AIM recommendations which many on the Red and Blue boards like to argue against.
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It's not a concern to ATC in the situation we're discussing, discretionary descents.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Why has this thread made it to 5 pages?

"Pilatus 12345 vacating FL200"

"Roger" or "thanks"
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I looked at this thread just now for the first time since I read the original post. I skipped it all this time as being too simple and basic. I just checked because, seeing 122 posts, I figured the thread must have creeped significantly and was curious where it went and came to this page.

Nowhere! I'm as flabbergasted as you are.
 
LuisO said:
dis·cre·tion
dəˈskreSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the quality of behaving or speaking in such a way as to avoid causing offense or revealing private information.
"she knew she could rely on his discretion"
synonyms: circumspection, carefulness, caution, wariness, chariness, guardedness; More
2.
the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
"it is up to local authorities to use their discretion in setting the charges"
synonyms: choice, option, preference, disposition, volition; More
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True, his point is that if you aren't going to start down yet you shouldn't report vacating until you do. I realize the issue is moot.
 
roncachamp said:
It's not a concern to ATC in the situation we're discussing, discretionary descents.
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Unless you have received some kind of big promotion of which I'm unaware, you can only speak for yourself, not the entire ATC system.

As I posted earlier, Don Brown, another very qualified (now retired) controller had a different opinion when he was the NATCA Facility Safety Representative for Atlanta Center. He explained that opinion quite well in his AvWeb Say Again? series of articles which are still available on the AvWeb site. (Just Google "Say Again?" to find them)
 
Larry in TN said:
Unless you have received some kind of big promotion of which I'm unaware, you can only speak for yourself, not the entire ATC system.
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I can speak for the entire ATC system when I say the report of vacating an altitude on a discretionary descent has no practical value.

As I posted earlier, Don Brown, another very qualified (now retired) controller had a different opinion when he was the NATCA Facility Safety Representative for Atlanta Center. He explained that opinion quite well in his AvWeb Say Again? series of articles which are still available on the AvWeb site. (Just Google "Say Again?" to find them)
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I'm familiar with Don Brown, he had some odd opinions.
 
I received a PD descent instruction this morning and this time I decided to wait until Top Of Descent before descending. I'll admit at first it felt awkward descending without telling the controller since it had been almost 20 minutes since I received the instruction.

After descending about 500 feet the controller asked if I was starting my descent and I acknowledge that I was in fact descending. I had this sense that the controller expected me to say something but I didn't hear anything from him afterwards.

If I hadn't had previous encounters with controllers scolding me for telling them I was descending I wouldn't be in this position. From now on I'm going to just descend after acknowledging a PD instruction and if ATC cares they'll ask like they did today.
 
I've done it both ways and never had a controller call me on it either way. My guess is most controllers don't really much care one way or the other until/unless what you do messes up their grand plan :dunno:
 
roncachamp said:
No, the writers of the AIM are wrong to tell pilots they should make unnecessary reports to ATC.
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It is not unnecessary to report leaving the assigned altitude when it is a PD clearance. There are often times where there is a significant time between getting the clearance and actually starting the descent. It is a good idea to let the controller know you are heading down. How do i know he hasn't forgotten about my pd clearance?? I have made this report for 22 years of flying and I have never had a controller ***** about it. I have had it happen more than a few times where the clearance gets modified when I announce starting the descent because traffic situations had changed and they needed me to level off at an intermediate altitude. If I ever catch flak about it I'll get a phone number and visit with the controller about it after I'm on the ground.
 
roncachamp said:
I can speak for the entire ATC system when I say the report of vacating an altitude on a discretionary descent has no practical value.



I'm familiar with Don Brown, he had some odd opinions.
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I'll make my report. If you ever call me out on the radio about it I'll make some phone calls to the facility.

After having more than one controller thank me for the heads up and amend my altitude clearance how can you honestly say that there is absolutely no need to ever advise start of descent on a PD clearance. Especially when there is FAA guidance to pilots advising us to do so?

Your posts make you sound arrogant and ignorant at the same time. I hope this is not true in real life.
 
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roncachamp said:
I'm familiar with Don Brown
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He's a great down-to-earth guy, and was an outstanding representative of controllers online and through his work as safety representative. He devoted numerous hours of personal time attempting to bridge the gap between controllers and pilots.

As for this thread, from a currently active ATC...if you want to make the report, make the report. If I need you to report an altitude, I'll ask. But if you make the report on your own, I'll respond with a "roger" and that will be the end of it.

From an IFR rated pilot...I report leaving ALL altitudes. I don't care what the clearance was.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It is not unnecessary to report leaving the assigned altitude when it is a PD clearance. There are often times where there is a significant time between getting the clearance and actually starting the descent. It is a good idea to let the controller know you are heading down. How do i know he hasn't forgotten about my pd clearance?? I have made this report for 22 years of flying and I have never had a controller ***** about it. I have had it happen more than a few times where the clearance gets modified when I announce starting the descent because traffic situations had changed and they needed me to level off at an intermediate altitude. If I ever catch flak about it I'll get a phone number and visit with the controller about it after I'm on the ground.
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It's unnecessary because it's unneeded, it doesn't accomplish anything. That doesn't mean it's worth bitching about.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I'll make my report. If you ever call me out on the radio about it I'll make some phone calls to the facility.
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My standard response to unnecessary reports was "roger".

After having more than one controller thank me for the heads up and amend my altitude clearance how can you honestly say that there is absolutely no need to ever advise start of descent on a PD clearance. Especially when there is FAA guidance to pilots advising us to do so?
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I can honestly say it because I'm an honest person and I know what the report means.

Your posts make you sound arrogant and ignorant at the same time. I hope this is not true in real life.
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It's not true at all.
 
roncachamp said:
It's unnecessary because it's unneeded, it doesn't accomplish anything. That doesn't mean it's worth bitching about.
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We just have to agree to disagree. I think it accomplishes a couple of very useful things and will continue to do it. As long as you don't complain about it on the air we are good. :wink2:
 
MarkZ said:
He's a great down-to-earth guy, and was an outstanding representative of controllers online and through his work as safety representative. He devoted numerous hours of personal time attempting to bridge the gap between controllers and pilots.

As for this thread, from a currently active ATC...if you want to make the report, make the report. If I need you to report an altitude, I'll ask. But if you make the report on your own, I'll respond with a "roger" and that will be the end of it.

From an IFR rated pilot...I report leaving ALL altitudes. I don't care what the clearance was.
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That's what I do too. I consider my "discretion" to also extend to reporting start of PD descent, and I feel that letting ATC know about it, esp. when a few minutes have passed since the PD descent clearance was issued, "can't hurt", and may sometimes prevent them asking "have you started your descent yet?". And in some very remote cases it may even catch a mistake or misunderstanding.
It costs me nothing, it adds to my perception of safety (which counts too), and it's my discretion.
That the AIM recommends it gives me backing if I am ever brought to task on it, but that has never happened that I recall.
 
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