Denied entry into class Delta

Gotta agree with you there. Any controller who says, "that'll teach ya..." is an unprofessional moron. I hope I didn't give them impression that I was biased on this matter. I'm not, I just can see things from both sides of the fence.
 
The PMSing stuff got started with post #14. If it happened just like described, then that controller needs an atitude adjustment.

Gotta agree with you there. Any controller who says, "that'll teach ya..." is an unprofessional moron.

So are tower cabs also equipped with an AI (artificial horizon)? Do they have a backup in case the job stops sucking? Or do they use AHRS now? :D
 
I am kind of glad I posted my story to point out the obvious because it seems it might not have been obvious to everyone so now that we clarified the rules, we all should be on the same page about entry into controlled airspace and especially on carrying enough fuel to go elsewhere if we are denied.
Safety first!
 
So my question is if atc in a class d uses your call sighn and says "stand by" do you remain outside of the class d airspace or do you continue on in because that is what s/he is expecting of you to do?
 
So my question is if atc in a class d uses your call sighn and says "stand by" do you remain outside of the class d airspace or do you continue on in because that is what s/he is expecting of you to do?

My OPINION is that only two-way communication is required for entry. Meaning if they acknowledge your tail number you are good to go. However, if they acknowledge with "stand by" or "remain clear" you must remain clear of their airspace. I don't think it's an implicit 'come on in.'
 
So my question is if atc in a class d uses your call sighn and says "stand by" do you remain outside of the class d airspace or do you continue on in because that is what s/he is expecting of you to do?

You continue in. Radio communications have been established and you have not been instructed to remain outside the class D.

AIM 3-2-5

NOTE- 1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, “[aircraft callsign] standby,” radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class D airspace.

2. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate entry into Class D airspace, the controller will inform the pilot to remain outside the Class D airspace until conditions permit entry.

EXAMPLE- 1. “[Aircraft callsign] remain outside the Class Delta airspace and standby.” It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft callsign, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class D airspace.
 
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It is the "stand by" with nothing else following that I am having problems with. I understand that once I have communicatetion with my call sighn that I can enter. But should I?

Is Atc expecting me to continue into their airspace?

If they talking to someone else and need me to stand by in order to reply to my request I do not want to call them for clarification if they are already busy

(or are they saying the airspace is too busy for the controller to insert me into the pattern and stay clear of the class D airspace)
 
It is the "stand by" with nothing else following that I am having problems with. I understand that once I have communicatetion with my call sighn that I can enter. But should I?

Is Atc expecting me to continue into their airspace?

If they talking to someone else and need me to stand by in order to reply to my request I do not want to call them for clarification if they are already busy

(or are they saying the airspace is too busy for the controller to insert me into the pattern and stay clear of the class D airspace)

Yes, ATC is expecting you to continue. If they don't want to continue, they'll tell you to remain clear or "aircraft calling tower, standby."

The standby with your callsign is just a delaying tactic until they can get back to you. They don't care that you enter the surface area, they just don't have the time or a plan to give you specific instructions at the present.
 
Yes, ATC is expecting you to continue. If they don't want to continue, they'll tell you to remain clear or "aircraft calling tower, standby."

The standby with your callsign is just a delaying tactic until they can get back to you. They don't care that you enter the surface area, they just don't have the time or a plan to give you specific instructions at the present.
And if you're paying attention like you should be at towered fields and non-towered fields alike, you will have a pretty good idea of what to expect. "Standby" could be a million different things and whether it's wise to carry on or delay a bit before entering their airspace will depend at least a little on what you're hearing and seeing in the area. Remember, you're PIC and you are allowed to enter the class D airspace but only you can decide whether that's the best course of action or not.
 
If you have questions about "[Aircraft callsign], standby," as it relates to entering Class D airspace, please refer to the AIM. It's all right there. Black and white.

My OPINION is that only two-way communication is required for entry. Meaning if they acknowledge your tail number you are good to go. However, if they acknowledge with "stand by" or "remain clear" you must remain clear of their airspace. I don't think it's an implicit 'come on in.'
Therefore the second sentence of this opinion is incorrect with respect to the statement "standby." It's explained in the AIM.
 
It is the "stand by" with nothing else following that I am having problems with. I understand that once I have communicatetion with my call sighn that I can enter. But should I?

EXAMPLE- 1. “[Aircraft callsign] remain outside the Class Delta airspace and standby.” It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft callsign, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class D airspace.

Note. It's "[Aircraft callsign] remain outside the Class Delta airspace" Is an instruction to "remain outside" the airspace.

If you did not hear "remain outside" and just "standby" then proceed on course since you made radio contact (tail number heard). Ex. "Cessna calling, standby" is not radio contact. "Cessna SevenSevenEchoDelta, standby" is radio contact.
 
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Well....alllllrighty then. :thumbsup: :skeptical:

But it wasn't ME that suggested the attitude adjustment.
 
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So my question is if atc in a class d uses your call sighn and says "stand by" do you remain outside of the class d airspace or do you continue on in because that is what s/he is expecting of you to do?

If all they say is "Cessna 123XY stand by," you can enter, but not land. But I've never heard that. It's always "aircraft calling stand by" or something similar.
 
This was very common back in the day in SoFL. Blast off, head to the practice area, and do your airwork. About 30 minutes before you wanted to head back, you'd call the tower up and say you want to head in, and they'd say "Roger N12345, remain clear, we have your number, expect a three zero minute delay due traffic". You'd go back to your airwork, and wait for the call. They'd call you back, give you a clearance, and over and done. No biggie.

Touch & Goes on the other hand, yea, that required other plans. No T&Gs at that field.
 
Think BigBadLou trying to get an AOA in there. There's one on the light gun right? ;)
Oh sh*t! Last time I was there (on Saturday), I didn't see one on the light gun (and yes, I inspected the gun because they use it on me every week thanks to my radios not working very often or my PTT getting stuck for hours at a time :D ).
Yes, I climb into the tower cab almost on a weekly basis. It is easier to talk to them in person than calling a number they try to give me over radio every time I can't hear them and cross the rwy in front of landing traffic.
The tower supervisor is very funny, he jokes every time that he wants to see my license and cut it up but I don't have the heart to tell this guy that he won't be able to do it himself because a supervisor at another airport did it years ago. But again, he's cool, he always smiles while the other controllers are dialing the local FSDO to get an inspector down to the airport asap. So far I have always missed him. Not a bad thing, I hear he's grumpy whenever he gets there.
I hate grumpy people. They harsh my buzz. When the grumps make me grumpy, it affects my flying and it is less fun. I tend to forget to request a flyby before I buzz the tower. But it's no problem, the supervisor is cool, like I said. I fear for his health, though, he keeps repeating how bad his heart is. I feel bad for him.
I try to stay healthy myself. I cut down on my drinking, no more than 2 beers before flying, I want to be sober. Ish. If I drink too much, I can't see the rwy or PAPI lights clearly and I have to concentrate really hard to be able to set it down perfectly on the yellow centerline on the very narrow runway and that much concentration takes the fun out of flying.
But hey, at least flying is much more fun than driving. Especially since all the morons on the road can't follow simple instructions and almost hit me while I am taxiing perfectly aligned on the yellow centerline. Even on the motorcycle, I have hard time getting by all the idiots taxiing too far off the yellow centerline. But at least that gives me room to pass them. They taxi too slow, IMO. You can't rotate that heavy thing at 80mph!
My bike rotates easily. With all the horsepower and torque, I can pop a wheelie at 100mph easily. The P-factor yaws me left, though, so I always end up far left off the centerline but I normally correct within a 1/2mi or so. The other drivers love my wheelies. They use the honk code: one long honk is "coooooool", two short honks stand for "awe-some", three short honks indicate "a-maz-ing"! If feels good to be appreciated.

But enough about me.

Who do I report an AOA missing from the light gun? The local FSDO?
 
I've been flying out of KOLM for the past 16 years. Contract tower. I remember talking with the airport manager a number of years ago and his priority was controllers who were "user friendly". We had one controller who got fired for causing a deal. I don't recall the details. I remember being on downwind one day when a plane (not locally based) was told to hold short of the runway I was heading for and he didn't read back the instruction. After another call or two from the tower the controller reminded him that he was required to read back all hold short instructions. Some people would have written him up for not reading back the instruction, but the controller just reminded him of his duty. The controller made his point and I suspect the other pilot hasn't made that mistake since. Good folks in the tower here.

Oh, and I have never been told to remain clear of the D space. I suspect we aren't busy enough for it to be an issue.
 
Many times a controller can have so much going on that he can't add another aircraft to his workload. Sometimes we have to acknowledge the aircraft calling so to stop him continuing to call. Many controllers have learned the hard way to tell aircraft to remain clear of the Class D surface area as a preventative to keep him from continuing into the heart of the beast until the controller is ready. In those cases you will usually hear, "Cessna one two three, standby and remain clear of the Class D surface area". At that point the pilot has an ATC instruction he must comply with. You will seldom hear a veteran controller say "Cessna one two three, standby" because, as we all know, such a communication would then authorize the aircraft to continue inbound.

There could be any number of reasons why a controller might not be ready to take on another VFR inbound especially when it's very busy. Believe me, it is in everyone's interest to serve each aircraft as quickly as possible. It's important to the pilot and to the controller.

tex
 
Many times a controller can have so much going on that he can't add another aircraft to his workload. Sometimes we have to acknowledge the aircraft calling so to stop him continuing to call. Many controllers have learned the hard way to tell aircraft to remain clear of the Class D surface area as a preventative to keep him from continuing into the heart of the beast until the controller is ready. In those cases you will usually hear, "Cessna one two three, standby and remain clear of the Class D surface area". At that point the pilot has an ATC instruction he must comply with. You will seldom hear a veteran controller say "Cessna one two three, standby" because, as we all know, such a communication would then authorize the aircraft to continue inbound.

There could be any number of reasons why a controller might not be ready to take on another VFR inbound especially when it's very busy. Believe me, it is in everyone's interest to serve each aircraft as quickly as possible. It's important to the pilot and to the controller.

tex

As a former Air Force controller, THIS right here. Sometimes one can only work so many airplanes, it happens.
 
That's what I said back in post 110 but heeeeeeey, get Mr. ATC Cadre instructor in here to say the same thing and you're gonna need Saran Wrap to keep the stain off your nose. ;)



I'm kidding just in case someone is offended for someone else, because that seems to happen quite a bit too.
 
There has been a lot of repeated advice, discussion and conclusions.
But as long as we all end up on the same page (pun intended) where we know when we may and may not enter airspace, it's all good.
I did not expect to start such a long thread with my simple post but hey, at least I think some have learned something new from it. A good pilot is always learning.
Thanks, guys.
 
That's what I said back in post 110 but heeeeeeey, get Mr. ATC Cadre instructor in here to say the same thing and you're gonna need Saran Wrap to keep the stain off your nose. ;)



I'm kidding just in case someone is offended for someone else, because that seems to happen quite a bit too.

The first correct reply, must be followed with at least five supporting replies in order to be valid. All of them essentially modified versions of the first one. Then, you must have at a bare minimum, ten "at my airport, ATC..." real world comments.

And if I have to hear mscard say he was a "former AF controller" one more time!!!:mad:
 
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