Deltahawk update from S&F looks good!

[MountainDude]

This seems to be the engine pilots have been asking for for decades: jet fuel, turbo/super charged, water cooled...
They are apparently ready to make and sell them, just waiting for the certificate (how long will that take?).
In addition to their 180HP, they have developed a 200 and 235 HP engine. Hopefully the 235 will be available for C182 for a competitive price.

 

[Salty]

Is $150 to $200k "competitive" in your view? The 180 HP comes in at $110k, so....

 

[eman1200]

Weren’t these guys “just waiting on certification” over four years ago, maybe more? SSDD

 

[ateamer]

So an engine that costs twice as much, weighs a lot more, and burns fuel that isn’t available at every airport? Where do I sign up?

 

[SoonerAviator]

So an engine that costs twice as much, weighs a lot more, and burns fuel that isn’t available at every airport? Where do I sign up?

An O-470 (roughly 230hp) supposedly weighs around 430lbs. The Deltahawk weighs 357lbs. Jet fuel is cheaper (but it will undoubtedly burn more of it - around 13 gal/hr at max cruise) and is available at far more airports internationally than 100LL. The cost aspect is the main crux here.

 

[dans2992]

So an engine that costs twice as much, weighs a lot more, and burns fuel that isn’t available at every airport? Where do I sign up?

Jet A is more available than avgas, for cheaper.

Also, new 100LL pistons are pushing $100k+ now…

 

[Ed Haywood]

Weren’t these guys “just waiting on certification” over four years ago, maybe more? SSDD

More like 20+ years. I can remember reading about them back in the late 90's when I was considering building an RV-6, and wondering whether I should wait. Ha ha.

 

[dans2992]

The 180 is certified, no?

 

[Bell206]

Surprised they don't offer an uncertified version to get it in the real world to get some ops data and make some money. They could also use the data from the experimental world toward their certified version.

 

[mondtster]

An O-470 (roughly 230hp) supposedly weighs around 430lbs. The Deltahawk weighs 357lbs. Jet fuel is cheaper (but it will undoubtedly burn more of it - around 13 gal/hr at max cruise) and is available at far more airports internationally than 100LL. The cost aspect is the main crux here.

Does that weight include the coolant and cooling system? Or just the engine?

Diesels will generally be more efficient, not less, but not by a large margin. So you could carry less fuel but the fuel you do carry is going to weigh more.

Ultimately, I think this is a wash for performance and fuel costs. Initial purchase price, especially if there are additional expenses to consider with a conversion, will be an issue. Depending on how much ongoing maintenance costs, that will be an issue as well. I have been involved with ownership and operational costs of both a Diamond DA40 and a DA40NG and the novelty of the diesel wears off in short order when all the costs of owning each are concerned. Unless things change significantly, I’d never buy the diesel.

 

[dans2992]

Agreed, TBO / TBR is a big question…

 

[Spring Ford]

just waiting for the certificate (how long will that take?).

Their web site says certification completed May 2023.

[Edit- That was one power rating, others likely still on the way.]

"DELTAHAWK’S JET-FUELED PISTON ENGINE RECEIVES FAA CERTIFICATION"
(Their bold caps as headline.)

Jet-Fueled Piston Engine Receives FAA Certification - DeltaHawk Engines

A milestone as DeltaHawk Engines has received FAA Type Certification for its highly innovative, jet-fueled aircraft piston engine.

www.deltahawk.com

 

[Racerx]

The engine is certified. But now to find a plane to use it on....which would require a STC.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I don't normally watch long promotional videos, but I was curious enough to watch this one. The catch is at the end.

They have design certification, but do not have production approval.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Does that weight include the coolant and cooling system? Or just the engine?

Diesels will generally be more efficient, not less, but not by a large margin. So you could carry less fuel but the fuel you do carry is going to weigh more.

Ultimately, I think this is a wash for performance and fuel costs. Initial purchase price, especially if there are additional expenses to consider with a conversion, will be an issue. Depending on how much ongoing maintenance costs, that will be an issue as well. I have been involved with ownership and operational costs of both a Diamond DA40 and a DA40NG and the novelty of the diesel wears off in short order when all the costs of owning each are concerned. Unless things change significantly, I’d never buy the diesel.

Includes engine, starter, alternator, turbo, and exhaust. No cooling system, but I doubt a cooling system adds more than the 70lbs differential from the O-470. However, I'm sure there are some other components that would be needed in addition to the cooling system that will close that gap a bit. I know most diesels were using gearboxes to help manage the power pulses on the prop, but this one doesn't. It also, being turbocharged, will maintain HP up to the upper-teens, so that can be an additional selling point. Would be interesting to see what the drag impact is with a liquid-cooled radiator vs the air-cooled baffling on a traditional Lyco-Conti variant.

 

[Mxfarm]

Includes engine, starter, alternator, turbo, and exhaust. No cooling system, but I doubt a cooling system adds more than the 70lbs differential from the O-470. However, I'm sure there are some other components that would be needed in addition to the cooling system that will close that gap a bit. I know most diesels were using gearboxes to help manage the power pulses on the prop, but this one doesn't. It also, being turbocharged, will maintain HP up to the upper-teens, so that can be an additional selling point. Would be interesting to see what the drag impact is with a liquid-cooled radiator vs the air-cooled baffling on a traditional Lyco-Conti variant.

Wasn't the P51 somehow a neg drag # on the scoop/radiator?

 

[SoonerAviator]

Wasn't the P51 somehow a neg drag # on the scoop/radiator?

Something like that, although unless we're tossing the Deltahawk into a Titan/ScaleWings P-51 clone, I'm not sure the physics work out the same lol.

 

[skypriority]

Why this engine has taken so long to reach an approved production stage (which is still hasn’t done) boggles the mind. A deep dive into the story paints a picture of GA’s cancer. A defining feature of the cancer is an uncountable number of low-IQ and lazy folks on the payroll at both GA companies and the FAA.

 

[frfly172]

How many aircraft are owners are interested in repowering with a diesel?

 

[Racerx]

At least one here... The problem is sure it's approved, but without an STC for whatever you're flying it's not even an option for those that might be interested.

Delta Hawk DHK180 for my Socata Tampico TB9, I just paid the deposit

Edit 5/22/2024: The latest block approved is 180HP up to 6000 feet, drops down to 150HP at 12,000 feet. They improved the engine cooling. Edit: 180hp for 5 minutes, then 135hp continuous. "Ideal cruise power 135hp". I’m not a home builder, it’s not for a sport aircraft, but my plane will pass...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

 

[Ed Haywood]

Wasn't the P51 somehow a neg drag # on the scoop/radiator?

Meredith Effect radiator. The heated air shoots out the back of the scoop, providing thrust which offsets the drag of the intake.

 

[Mxfarm]

Something like that, although unless we're tossing the Deltahawk into a Titan/ScaleWings P-51 clone, I'm not sure the physics work out the same lol.

possible marketing gimmick

 

[tsts4]

IIRC they are offering an RV-14 FWF package. That might entice a few re-powers across a numbers E-AB models, especially for overseas folks where availability and cost of Jet A trumps AVGAS. Plus there's no STC to stand in the way.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

IIRC they are offering an RV-14 FWF package. That might entice a few re-powers across a numbers E-AB models, especially for overseas folks where availability and cost of Jet A trumps AVGAS. Plus there's no STC to stand in the way.

According to the news on their website, that's in the works as of January, and as of last week they're working with Piper on an STC for Seminoles.

 

[Katamarino]

I will definitely be getting one of these for the 182 once the 235hp version and FWF kit is available - assuming early operating data from the lower power versions looks good. It is an absolute gamechanger for my kind of flying, where availability of Avgas is often the biggest challenge.

 

[bflynn]

Pretty sure the engine pilots have been waiting for is free, pushes the airplane close to the sound barrier, never breaks, and doesn't require gas. Or is that just me?

 

[tspear]

And do not forget, in the number calculations, avgas is about to get a $1 or more bump in price due to removing TEL.
That makes the price differential between Jet-A and avgas fairly significant.

Tim

 

[SoonerAviator]

Pretty sure the engine pilots have been waiting for is free, pushes the airplane close to the sound barrier, never breaks, and doesn't require gas. Or is that just me?

Problem is finding enough Dilithium crystals.

 

[Zeldman]

A deep dive into the story paints a picture of GA’s cancer. A defining feature of the cancer is an uncountable number of low-IQ and lazy folks on the payroll at both GA companies and the FAA.

Can you expand on this.??

 

[Ed Haywood]

I hope these guys succeed.

But the hardest part is yet to come. That is economics. Building a production capability that can churn out engines competitive with other offerings will be HARD. Lycoming and Conti have an 80 year head start.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Can you expand on this.??

 

[Katamarino]

Lycoming and Conti have an 80 year head start.

They're also churning out 80 year old products, with 80 year old quality control.

 

[mondtster]

But the hardest part is yet to come. That is economics. Building a production capability that can churn out engines competitive with other offerings will be HARD. Lycoming and Conti have an 80 year head start.

While certainly a challenge, I think obtaining airframe approvals and offering affordable conversion packages will present the bigger problem. Lycoming and Continental have a leg up in this area because they already have airframe approvals and the OEMs are using them.

Finding an OEM that is willing to put some money into getting these engines approved on their airframe(s) so owners don’t have to seek approval or an STC would be a big help. But, unless there is a financial gain in doing this, I don’t expect you’ll see any support from the OEMs for a project like this.

 

[40YearDream]

I expect the 'not invented here' effect

 

[tspear]

Finding an OEM that is willing to put some money into getting these engines approved on their airframe(s) so owners don’t have to seek approval or an STC would be a big help. But, unless there is a financial gain in doing this, I don’t expect you’ll see any support from the OEMs for a project like this.

I am too lazy to look. Piper already has a couple of Jet-A based piston planes. The Archer-DX for example; has anyone checked if the engine is on there via STC or type certificate?
If STC, will piper go the same way? If yes, will they sell it for a shop to do so on the older Seminole?

Also curious what the price will be. I looked around, and from what I can find posted, the Seminole as is, is going for roughly 800K new. That is much cheaper than comparable Diamond and Cirrus planes.

Tim

 

[FancyG]

IIRC they are offering an RV-14 FWF package. That might entice a few re-powers across a numbers E-AB models, especially for overseas folks where availability and cost of Jet A trumps AVGAS. Plus there's no STC to stand in the way.

Rotax/Mogas is the overseas answer.

 

[tsts4]

Rotax/Mogas is the overseas answer.

only if you’re limiting yourself to LSA sized aircraft otherwise you’re gonna need more ponies

 

[mondtster]

I am too lazy to look. Piper already has a couple of Jet-A based piston planes. The Archer-DX for example; has anyone checked if the engine is on there via STC or type certificate?
If STC, will piper go the same way? If yes, will they sell it for a shop to do so on the older Seminole?

I’m fairly sure the current diesel offerings from Piper are installed via STC. I don’t think they are the STC holder either.

 

[FancyG]

only if you’re limiting yourself to LSA sized aircraft otherwise you’re gonna need more ponies

I've never been shy to be ignorant but don't the Euro LSA's also fall under lower landing fees, etc? Is LSA is the majority of the GA fleet there?

Rotax's 916 has 160hp now, same as early 172's.

I went with the 915 in muh Stoldozer because of my expat plans. Turns out it also burns 2-4 less gph than a Titan equipped version and the Titan's extra 40hp yeilds no greater cruise speed.

Rotax is the future IMO. And that there are very few if any STC's that retrofit into certificated aircraft says that the economics of conversion, even with a proven engine don't work.

Vaporware diesel, never gonna happen.

The legacy GA fleet will continue on with rebuilds/remans until a viable option - which has yet to present itself - emerges.

 

[tsts4]

I've never been shy to be ignorant but don't the Euro LSA's also fall under lower landing fees, etc? Is LSA is the majority of the GA fleet there?

Rotax's 916 has 160hp now, same as early 172's.

I went with the 915 in muh Stoldozer because of my expat plans. Turns out it also burns 2-4 less gph than a Titan equipped version and the Titan's extra 40hp yeilds no greater cruise speed.

Rotax is the future IMO. And that there are very few if any STC's that retrofit into certificated aircraft says that the economics of conversion, even with a proven engine don't work.

Vaporware diesel, never gonna happen.

The legacy GA fleet will continue on with rebuilds/remans until a viable option - which has yet to present itself - emerges.

In Europe sure—your example doesn’t fit for the rest of the world IMO. But even there if you want to fly something larger then something that burns Jet A and produces more than 160hp might be attractive.

As to whether the Deltahawk will make a go of it —I dunno. I’ve been following them for years and I’m surprised they made it this far.