Death grip and students

Tristar

Tristar

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Tristar
Everyone has encountered the "deer in the headlights" look from time to time especially with something new or scary. I even remember the feeling of my first steep turns and even stalls freezing up on the controls during my private training. My instructor had to say my name a couple times for me to come back to reality and do something about the situation. By the time you get into further ratings such as instrument or maybe commercial if needed, you learn the magic words, "my controls." Your mind is automatically triggered to look at your instructor's hands and let go. Everything is fine again and by the end of the rating, you don't hear it anymore.

I'm beginning my training to be that person in the left seat and something concerns me. Possibly it's paranoia, maybe the fact that I'm smaller than most guy students, but an honest concern none the less. I'm concerned that I'll get a student with an unbreakable death grip. Instances such as a bad stall into a spin where the student won't let go of the controls and let me recover no matter what I say. Thankfully it seems most students are more likely to just let go or a little like me at the time, freeze up but conscious enough to be brought back to reality. At the same time, I've also heard stories of flight instructors having to, yes I know its hard to believe, hitting students before spiraling to thier deaths. Sounds a bit extreme so I'm curious from your standpoint. What would you do with a student that just won't let go?

Fly safe,
Tristan
 
My instructor had a student who told him that he didn't want to hear negative things during the flight, so he gave the instructor an electric shock probe and asked that he be shocked if he was doing something wrong. Generally not my idea of a good idea, but maybe something like that for this type if instance?
 
tristan - i can understand your worry about overcoming a student. I had a student last year who was a former Arena Football player. No way I was going to be able to overpower him on the controls. I have heard that an effective method of getting them to let go is to cover their mouth. the lack of breath apparently has a psychological effect that will make a person release a grip. otherwise i hold the standby of a sharp elbow to the chest, and if that doesnt work, an elbow to the face. This of course is if the student is about ready to kill me.
 
I've never had it get that far, but if all verbal attempts fail and you can't overpower on the controls, the first option is to chop down on the top of the student's forearm (about halfway between wrist and elbow) with your left hand. If that doesn't work, chop to the bridge of the nose, but that has to be an ultimate last resort.
 
Simple. Build a box you put around the yoke stem. Push a button--box cuts their yoke off. You could do it with force, explosives (way cooler), or some sort of fast sawing. I am sure several of us--would love to build something like this.

It would be "portable" so no STC needed :)
 
jesse said:
Simple. Build a box you put around the yoke stem. Push a button--box cuts their yoke off. You could do it with force, explosives (way cooler), or some sort of fast sawing. I am sure several of us--would love to build something like this.

It would be "portable" so no STC needed :)
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:rofl::rofl:
 
gprellwitz said:
My instructor had a student who told him that he didn't want to hear negative things during the flight, so he gave the instructor an electric shock probe and asked that he be shocked if he was doing something wrong.
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:eek: I guess this company needs to market to flight instructors.

I had always heard that the way to someone to let go of the controls is to cover their eyes. They'll instinctively reach up to get your hands out of the way. I don't know if this works though because I've never done it. Hmm... that might be an experiment for the next time I am the non-flying pilot.
diablotin.gif
 
jesse said:
Simple. Build a box you put around the yoke stem. Push a button--box cuts their yoke off.
Click to expand...
The 2-seat F-16's have this -- there is an "instructor override" switch which, when thrown, takes the back seat stick inputs and ignores the front stick when the back seat stick is displaced, and no guillotines or explosives are required. However, you need an electronic flight control system using electronic joysticks rather than mechanical controls for this to be feasible, so it's probably not an option for what Tristan's flying.
 
Everskyward said:
:eek: I guess this company needs to market to flight instructors.

I had always heard that the way to someone to let go of the controls is to cover their eyes. They'll instinctively reach up to get your hands out of the way. I don't know if this works though because I've never done it. Hmm... that might be an experiment for the next time I am the non-flying pilot.
diablotin.gif
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oh maybe thats what i was thinking of. i guess you could cover their mouth and eyes just to cover your bases
 
Tristar said:
I'm beginning my training to be that person in the left seat and something concerns me. Possibly it's paranoia, maybe the fact that I'm smaller than most guy students, but an honest concern none the less. I'm concerned that I'll get a student with an unbreakable death grip. Instances such as a bad stall into a spin where the student won't let go of the controls and let me recover no matter what I say. Tristan
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Tristan, you are physically petite. That means your only tool is to put your arm across the student's lap, make a bicep, and ram your up upward just as hard as you can.

If it is a tandem aircraft with dual sticks, you're kinda toasted. I think a TASER would be more appropriate to saving your life.

This is meant to be partly humorous, but I had sworn off primary instruction for about six years after an incident. I still haven't figured out how to deal with rudder pedals (student's feet). I think would break their arm grip and then pull the seat latch (usually it's during full pitch up, so .....away they go).

This is DEAD serious stuff, no joke. The ones that failed are NOT here to discussi it.
 
"horse bite" to the inner thigh. Or I have a few moves from Aikido class I could show you which do not involve any "Judo chops!"
 
I used to know a female flight instructor who said "see this bony little elbow? When it contacts their throat, they let go of the airplane REAL quick."

Note the use of the plural "they"...she named names at the time.

As far as tandems go, I used to work for a guy who carried a piece of piano wire when he did spin training. Said it had the same effect, but he didn't name names.

Fly safe!

David

p.s...Tristan, I'll be in SWO Thursday...stop over and say hi if you're around.
 
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In the interest of keeping violence out of the plane...you can always earn your beads the old fashion way :D That should get his mind off the death grip and allow you to regain control.
(just kiddin' with ya)
 
kevin47881 said:
In the interest of keeping violence out of the plane...you can always earn your beads the old fashion way :D That should get his mind off the death grip and allow you to regain control.
(just kiddin' with ya)
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izzydogg said:
Take off your shirt!
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Got a couple of volunteers here, if you want to practice some of the more, um, abrupt techniques on for size ;)
 
Interesting post, Tristan. This has come up frequently on helicopter sites like Vertical Reference, where CFI's have basically made the assumption that the student will try to kill them (much easier to do in a helicopter than a GA airplane). Beyond that, a million years ago when I was working on my PP-ASEL, I overpowered the Chief Pilot of the club where I learned to fly (fixed-wing) and managed to drop a Warrior down pretty hard. Maybe that's what made me go to rotorcraft :D
 
I've read fatal accident reports in the NTSB about petite instructors unable to recover from a student control lock so I know this is serious. Out of the CFI's here, how many times have you had to physically extract the student from the controls?
 
My parents lost a good friend in a similar situation. He (the CFI friend) was a "normal" size human but his last student was a lumberjack sized farm boy. They spun a 152 into the ground from about 3000 AGL and the CFI was very experienced with spins.

And my next door neighbor had a wild ride in a Citabria on floats when the airline pilot friend (my neighbor is a high time NW pilot) he was "coaching" through a takeoff froze with the stick all the way back on his first attempt. The result was a bent wing, a busted float, and two very scared/humbled pilots. Just goes to show that "those little airplanes can just barely kill you". Unfortunately for me this occurred just before I arrived at the resort in northern MN where he keeps the plane as we were planning to do some float flying.
 
Probably the most important thing for T. is to, as all instructors or even pax-carrying pilots should, is to very carefully um... 'vet' the person they are going with... more so in the case of featherweight folks carrying people they are not familiar with. Develop some non-intrusive psychoanalysis questions as a cfi I know did, ask around about the person, do some ground school first to see what they are like.
 
I haven't quite figured out whether all this is comforting or not!
 
Could there not be a system to allow a quick disconnect of the student yoke?

Something like a steering wheel quick release they use in racing?
 
If one must resort to physical methods, violent ones aren't usually needed, as the CFI's hand simply extended over to cover the spasming student's eyes will usually bring their hands off the controls, as a basic reflex to them not seeing forward.
 
Great question Tristan. Scary question too. Being a small guy and usually occupying the back seat of a tandem trainer I've thought about it a lot. I've fortuanatly never had to fight a student but I have friends who have.

It's completely acceptable to carry a weapon of some sort. It's a life and death situation. It's not uncommon for glider instructors to carry a stick, or cane in the back cockpit to disable a student or passenger who's lost it and otherwise unreachable up front. A taser might cause such convulsions as to agravate a control loss situation but I don't know much about them. Worth looking in to. I like the piano wire suggestion. Keep asking around especially other women instructors.

That said, the first order of business is to avoid getting into the situation in the first place. Knowing your students well and checking out their reactions to stressfull situations can help. For example, during the demonstration phase of a new maneuver have the student OFF the controls the first time. "Following through" on controls is almost useless anyway as no control pressures can be sensed. If it's a potentially frightening maneuver like stalls, steep turns, spins... have the student grip their shoulder harness to give them something to hang on to then watch how they react. Some people have an uncontrollable physical reaction to negative G that causes them to push or pull the contols, pitch their head, or otherwise freek out. There's a great paper by the famed UK instructor Derrick Piggot titled Glider Accidents and Sub-Gravity Sensations that provided insite into a bunch of otherwise unexplained fatalities.

Practicing a no exceptions military-like disciplined exchange of controls with specific and clear wording at all times no matter how brief or seemingly silly will help in emergencies or otherwise stressfull situations. It's a habit that enhances safety as well as improves learning.

If your students know from minute 1 that you are going to take care of them and that there is no question that you are in charge at all times hopefully you'll never have to deal with it.
 
Here's a tip: remember that the elbow, even a lady's elbow, contains a very hard blunt mass of bone. Cage fighters know it, and so does the guy who recently gave my nonpilot friend his first helicopter lesson:

"O.k. he sez you have three controls the Cyclic, Collective and the Tailrotor peddles. He explains what each are for and then tells me that he does not let anyone use the collective on the first flight ( Thank God!!! ). Then he puts his elbow up and asked me if I know what that is and I said " A yeah it's your elbow ". He then said if he tells me to release the controls that I should release them to him right away because we are about to crash and die and if I don't let the controls go I will feel his elbow against my head and the rest of the flight won't be any fun!!"


:D

If you have to do it, aim for the temple... ;)
 
I like the idea of covering the mouth and nose, they would let go just to move your hands!

Though this wouldn't help with a death grip,.. my instrument instructor finally took to whacking my arm with a rolled up newspaper when I failed to close the cowl flaps time and time again... also when I took my hand off the throttle when it was supposed to be there. As odd as it was, I kind of laughed it off.. and to this day I still imagine to see him going for the newspaper when my hand isn't where it belongs.. so it worked!
 
ErikU said:
I like the idea of covering the mouth and nose, they would let go just to move your hands!
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Or they would just take one hand, grab her wrists, and hold them to where she couldn't move. She's not very big.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I used to know a female flight instructor who said "see this bony little elbow? When it contacts their throat, they let go of the airplane REAL quick."
.
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The throat could end up lethal. I'd go for the nose. If your elbow doesnt reach then your foerearm will do, and if once doesn't work then do it again. There aren't too many people out there who can handle two solid consecutive strikes to the nose without instinctively covering up. Especially since the person would be in a a panic state and not one of homicidal rage. No need to kill. Theres a spot behind your jaw about an inch or two under your ear. Ram your thumb in there. Also very effective. I'd be careful not to be "trigger happy" so to speak and ruin someones day because a slow reaction was mistaken for panic.
Just my opinion.
 
To me this would be the scariest aspect of being a CFI. Your students could potentially kill both of you and you just don't know how they are going to react until you've had a chance to see them in action - and a cockpit is a poor place to experiment.

A CFI friend of mine said that knocking their headsets off could be enough to throw them off kilter and they would let go. I've no idea how effective that is in a panic sitch - in a regular sitch I would think that a trained pilot with his wits about him wouldn't completely let go of the controls over a headset.

To throw other serious stories into this - 2 years ago a very low time student (3 or 4 hours) and his CFI crashed on final. I wondered at the time if the CFI, who was a relatively small guy, was overpowered by someone who panicked - he was very experienced and the weather conditions that day were normal. In telling this to a pilot coworker he said a young CFI at his old airport was in that sitch and was actually able to say on the mike "I can't get him to let go". She didn't, and they crashed.

It may work to talk to the chief CFI and ask them how they would handle it - including the selection of which students to send your way.
 
Danos said:
The throat could end up lethal.
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So could the student if he/she screws up and the plane crashes into the ground!

This is a serious and good topic. It seems the suggestions so far have been good ones, but generally carrying some sort of physical device may be beneficial, Tristan, since you are smaller.

I've never had a death grip or been bad about relinquishing the controls (just ask Missa), but a lot of people's brains are hardwired to become the deer in the headlights. I think those are the people you need to be more concerned with. Worse yet are the people who don't feel they need instruction, and won't understand that you ARE a better pilot and you DO know better than they do. Doesn't mean that will always be the case, but with your close to 300 hours and their 0-80, you do know better.

Maybe one thing to do would be to engrain the words "MY PLANE!" in their head. So, in normal flight situations, train them that "MY PLANE!" means they let go and you take over. This may help avert some of the deer in the headlights phenomenon. It seems to me, you have to have a certain amount of trust in your student, and that's a lot to ask of anyone. It may also be prudent to pick and choose your students. "Sorry, you're 3x my size, I'm not comfortable teaching you at this point." I don't think there's any regulation that says you have to teach a student. You may want to stick to other small females for a while.

This is interesting to me, as well. I have friends who want to go flying with me once I get my licence, but this is one of my biggest concerns as well were I to let them take a hand at the controls for a bit, which is something I'd want to do in order to spread the passion to others. Even just in straight and level flight, if an unexpected wind gust hit or something of the like, that could get really ugly really fast.

As has been said, those who failed aren't here to talk about it...
 
wbarnhill said:
Could there not be a system to allow a quick disconnect of the student yoke?

Something like a steering wheel quick release they use in racing?
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I'm sure they will put the control on the panel right next to the button that releases the wings. :yes:

-Skip
 
bbchien said:
Tristan, you are physically petite. That means your only tool is to put your arm across the student's lap, make a bicep, and ram your up upward just as hard as you can.
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Or downward ... except the student's head will then slam the yoke forward as they double over in pain ... :vomit:
 
jesse said:
Or they would just take one hand, grab her wrists, and hold them to where she couldn't move. She's not very big.
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No student is going to hang on to the instructor's hands if they think she's the only person who can save the situation. I recall that students were more than willing to relinquish the controls if they felt uncomfortable in a situation, in fact, that can be another problem, the student stops flying the plane without saying anything so now nobody is flying it. That's why the transfer of controls needs to be emphasized before hand.

If we are talking about people who rent an airplane an instructor and deliberately determined to crash it that's a whole different story and better avoided by developing a sense for people while talking to them on the ground before a flight. Once you are in the air they are going to have the advantage of surprise, no matter how big a person you are and what kind of weapon you might be carrying.
 
wby0nder said:
Practicing a no exceptions military-like disciplined exchange of controls with specific and clear wording at all times no matter how brief or seemingly silly will help in emergencies or otherwise stressfull situations. It's a habit that enhances safety as well as improves learning.
Click to expand...


I think that's the best defense against it. Train them in normal situations that "my controls" means their hands and feet better jump off the controls, and pretty soon they won't even have to think about letting go when you command.

The instructor I had for commercial was a former SWAT officer and went through some of the other effective force methods. First, he said, cover their eyes. That'll almost always work. If not, hold their nose. They can still breathe, but it's pretty damn irritating to have someone holding your nose, so that'll probably get them to move. If that's not going to do it, or you need to work faster, make a fist and strike downward just above the wrist (someone else mentioned this one). That'll probably break their grip. Alternately, same kind of strike but in the soft spot above the knee cap will probably make them move. From their, he said, either an elbow jab to the sternum or side/back of the neck, or sharp upper cut to the chin and chances are they'll be off the controls in no time. He also demonstrated that, if you can reach it, sliding the seat back can get someone off the rudders, though it may not be as effective with the yoke.
 
Matt

interesting info!

I think though that sliding the seat back could cause someone to REALLY pull back on the yoke - to drag themselves forward (just as a reaction). that's why the Cessnas have the AD out on their seats - they would do that at random apparently.
 
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