Death grip and students

A T-37 IP I knew used to tell me stories about training Saudi pilots in the late 700's and 80's. When they got into trouble the would either freeze up or just let go of the controls and say "Allah has it" and he would have to take over. If the held onto the controls he liked the elbow or fist to the nose as a way to wake them up and let go. Worked even when they had masks on.
 
smigaldi said:
A T-37 IP I knew used to tell me stories about training Saudi pilots in the late 700's and 80's. When they got into trouble the would either freeze up or just let go of the controls and say "Allah has it" and he would have to take over. If the held onto the controls he liked the elbow or fist to the nose as a way to wake them up and let go. Worked even when they had masks on.
Click to expand...

That's hysterical Scott!
 
not MC...
Mc, like McDonald's...has no one seen Superbad?

Anyhow,

There are oodles of pressure points that are available on the human body, that and be exploited with a single finger or two fingers, that doesn't result in punches or elbows being thrown in a confined space or trying to jerk someone's hand free from a death grip, none of which I want going on in my cockpit.
 
woodstock said:
Matt

interesting info!

I think though that sliding the seat back could cause someone to REALLY pull back on the yoke - to drag themselves forward (just as a reaction). that's why the Cessnas have the AD out on their seats - they would do that at random apparently.
Click to expand...
Gotta break their grip first. Then get 'em too far back to reach the rudders.
 
I figured that is what the regulatory D-Cell flashlight is for. Preferably a maglite
 
EdFred said:
not MC...
There are oodles of pressure points that are available on the human body, that and be exploited with a single finger or two fingers, that doesn't result in punches or elbows being thrown .
Click to expand...

Many of which are inacessible thru winter clothing in a side by side seated position .
 
I'm all for techniques that present a lower risk of injury to my student. Unfortunately, covering the student's eyes or pinching his nose is a darned awkward reach in a 152...somebody small trying to reach far enough with their elbow to get a big student's nose instead of their throat may very well be impossible; although the back of the fist to the nose would probably be a reasonable method...even a mild blow will get your attention. (This is how my neice told me I can't pick on her anymore...but I've decided to show no fear ;))

Maybe, as Teller experienced, finding someone who is trained in such arts who can sit in the airplane for an hour or so and outline possibilities might be the best answer...when I was a kid, parents could still tell their kids that if they were ever in trouble, they should find a policeman to help...maybe that's a good suggestion here.

As Ron implied, you may NEVER have a problem. Unfortunately, you may, so it's good that you're addressing the possibility.

Fly safe!

David
 
EdFred said:
not MC...
Mc, like McDonald's...has no one seen Superbad?

Anyhow,

There are oodles of pressure points that are available on the human body, that and be exploited with a single finger or two fingers, that doesn't result in punches or elbows being thrown in a confined space or trying to jerk someone's hand free from a death grip, none of which I want going on in my cockpit.
Click to expand...

I like my interpretation better. "MC" something or other fits you. :D

pressure points - like a poke in the eyeballs? is that the one-two finger suggestion here? ;)
 
Danos said:
The throat could end up lethal. I'd go for the nose. If your elbow doesnt reach then your foerearm will do, and if once doesn't work then do it again. There aren't too many people out there who can handle two solid consecutive strikes to the nose without instinctively covering up. Especially since the person would be in a a panic state and not one of homicidal rage. No need to kill. Theres a spot behind your jaw about an inch or two under your ear. Ram your thumb in there. Also very effective. I'd be careful not to be "trigger happy" so to speak and ruin someones day because a slow reaction was mistaken for panic.
Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Jeez, this makes me feel so good having you as my safety pilot.:rofl:

Is this what my flying makes you think about?
 
Tristan, keep a pen handy to jot down notes, etc., and to stab them in the arm if necessary. One of my CFIs at Leesburg, VA was returning with a 7 hour student and they stalled/spun their Archer II on base to final. Both dead. No one knows what actually happened but to me, it's difficult to believe that a CFI, trained at Embry-Riddle, would let something like this happen willingly. As Bruce said, deadly serious and if the situation warrants, don't screw around, stab them in the arm - non-fatal, and an attention getter for sure.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
it's difficult to believe that a CFI, trained at Embry-Riddle
Click to expand...

Too bad Embry Riddle didn't teach him to stay off the marihuana while instructing.. It may not have been the cause--but it sure makes him look like an ass in a NTSB report.

I'd also say it's a sign of an irresponsible pilot that didn't take instructing seriously. But that's just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
jesse said:
Too bad Embry Riddle didn't teach
him to stay off the marihuana while instructing.. It may not have been the cause--but it sure makes him look like an ass in a NTSB report.

I'd also say it's a sign of an irresponsible pilot that didn't take instructing seriously. But that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...


Yep, I just looked up the final report and see that I was wrong on a couple of things. It was a Warrior instead of an Archer, they were climbing out instead of landing, and the CFI was high. I haven't thought about this crash till Tristen started this thread and all this time I presumed the student killed the both of them. Needless to say, I'm not so sure anymore and agree with your comments.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Yep, I just looked up the final report and see that I was wrong on a couple of things. It was a Warrior instead of an Archer, they were climbing out instead of landing, and the CFI was high. I haven't thought about this crash till Tristen started this thread and all this time I presumed the student killed the both of them. Needless to say, I'm not so sure anymore and agree with your comments.
Click to expand...
Could you post the NTSB report? Thanks.
 
KennyFlys said:
Could you post the NTSB report? Thanks.
Click to expand...


http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20051124X01886&key=1


NTSB Identification: NYC06FA029.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Wednesday, November 09, 2005 in Leesburg, VA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 8/29/2006
Aircraft: Piper PA-28-161, registration: N4171T
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
​

The flight instructor and the student pilot were performing "touch and go" landings in the airport traffic pattern. The airplane had completed one circuit around the traffic pattern, and during the transition from landing to the second takeoff, the airplane rolled almost the entire length of the runway before leaving the ground. The airplane then banked steeply left, at a low altitude, and descended in a nose down attitude subsequently impacting trees and terrain. Examination of the wreckage revealed no evidence of any pre-impact failures or malfunctions. Toxicological testing of the flight instructor revealed the presence of marihuana. The extent to which this drug may have affected the instructor could not be determined. Toxicological testing of the student revealed the presence of a sedating over-the-counter antihistamine and a prescription antidepressant.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The flight instructor's failure to maintain airspeed, which resulted in an inadvertent stall and subsequent impact with trees and terrain.

 
smigaldi said:
Yikes what a mess!! Almost makes one wonder if the student committed suicide by airplane.
Click to expand...
It sounds like both were set on self-destruction.

As many screw-ups as the FAA has, at least they take a hard stand on pulling certificates for substance abuse. If my instructor, or one working for me, were found to be high on illegal drugs, I would put forth no small effort insuring their career was over. There can be no excuse for this.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Yep, I just looked up the final report and see that I was wrong on a couple of things. It was a Warrior instead of an Archer, they were climbing out instead of landing, and the CFI was high. I haven't thought about this crash till Tristen started this thread and all this time I presumed the student killed the both of them. Needless to say, I'm not so sure anymore and agree with your comments.
Click to expand...


Oh no. He was high? That was the same CFI/student I was talking about earlier. I thought he had less than 7 hours actually but I could be wrong.

Is it possible he had residual marijuana in his system from days/weeks ago - and wasn't actually high?
 
Man, give me a break. I've been teaching since the late 80's, have flown with hundreds of pilots and students, and never once has anyone frozen on the controls. I am not saying it cannot happen or even that in over a century of flight training no one ever has done this, but I sure haven't seen it or ever heard of it among my many CFI compatriots. When something goes wrong in flight or things get dicey in wx or whatever, students are more than happy to let go of the controls. I have had to convince students to keep flying, that I'll be backing them up, keep their hands on the controls and learn how to deal with whatever is going on when they would love nothing more than to release the controls and sit back and let me do handle things. That's not what the CFI is there for, of course, except in the sense the student knows he or she, the CFI, IS there to help if absolutely necessary.
 
Last edited:
woodstock said:
Oh no. He was high? That was the same CFI/student I was talking about earlier. I thought he had less than 7 hours actually but I could be wrong.

Is it possible he had residual marijuana in his system from days/weeks ago - and wasn't actually high?
Click to expand...

Yes, same guys. I went to Craig's funeral in Middleburg and he had everything going for him - great family, career, etc. It was such a shame. I did not have the pleasure of knowing the other gentleman.

I suppose he could have had residual in his system and had been of sound mind but still, to risk throwing away his future flying opportunities.... Well, I guess I didn't let logic drive me either when I was in my early 20's.

But still, if sober, how is it that a CFI would ever allow a plane to get so low and slow, unless the student has a death grip?
 
JohnAJohnson said:
how is it that a CFI would ever allow a plane to get so low and slow, unless the student has a death grip?
Click to expand...
More experienced pilots have done worse. We're human--mistakes happen.
 
Jeepers. The CFI is high; the student is on citalopram, an antidepressive. Unbereevable!
 
Baron 55 said:
Man, give me a break. I've been teaching since the late 80's, have flown with hundreds of pilots and students, and never once has anyone frozen on the controls. I am not saying it cannot happen or even that in over a century of flight training no one ever has done this, but I sure haven't seen it or ever heard of it among my many CFI compatriots.
Click to expand...

I heard of it happening locally at least once, so while rare, it DOES happen.

I also think Tristan should be commended for thinking things through so thoroughly in advance - That's the sign of a well-prepared, excellent pilot (and CFI). :yes:
 
I was asked this on my CFI checkride by the DE, who was huge (I'm not petite, but he was about 6'4" and built like a linebacker). I pointed to the watch on my wrist and said, "See this? I would go WHAM!" and simulated hitting his nose. He smiled and said that's exactly the answer he was looking for.

Some of you who express dismay at violence seem to be forgetting that if this even comes up, it's a life and death situation with no time to try a bunch of other things. If you hit someone in the nose, they WILL reflexively raise their hands to protect themselves. A bloody nose heals quickly. Death doesn't. Even if someone were inclined to sue over the bloody nose, I doubt they'd get very far. A CFI's word against a student pilot's would seem to carry a lot of weight, since the student isn't going to be very credible in assessing the danger of an aviation situation.

Having said that, I can't imagine that this is anything other than an extremely rare situation.

Judy
 
judypilot said:
Even if someone were inclined to sue over the bloody nose, I doubt they'd get very far. A CFI's word against a student pilot's would seem to carry a lot of weight, since the student isn't going to be very credible in assessing the danger of an aviation situation.
Click to expand...
Of course, if you have students suing you for this on a reguar basis, you might seek counselling ;)
 
As a not-large woman instructor, most students could overpower me if they were scared enough. I've had a few freeze on me but let go in an appropriate amount of time, and I've one one, a 325 pound man in a C-172 freeze on me during stalls. He would NOT let go after the stall broke, after repeated instructions to lower the nose, "my plane"s, me shoving on the controls and hard as I could, and finally me yelling his name along with the above. Finally, with our lives in danger, I did indeed hit him. I had a wooden clip board at that time, and I hit the side of his head with it, which shocked him into letting go so I could recover. He was very apologetic both then and later.

It's pretty rare though, I know of a several instructors who had students freeze or do the wrong thing in a big way at the wrong time, but nobody else who had someone who actually froze to that degree. :)
 
Thank you for chiming in, Karkay8. It's very real and if a CFI hasn't experienced it they tend to not believe it. In the tandem, I was only partly kidding about a TASER.
 
karkay8 said:
As a not-large woman instructor, most students could overpower me if they were scared enough. I've had a few freeze on me but let go in an appropriate amount of time, and I've one one, a 325 pound man in a C-172 freeze on me during stalls. He would NOT let go after the stall broke, after repeated instructions to lower the nose, "my plane"s, me shoving on the controls and hard as I could, and finally me yelling his name along with the above. Finally, with our lives in danger, I did indeed hit him. I had a wooden clip board at that time, and I hit the side of his head with it, which shocked him into letting go so I could recover. He was very apologetic both then and later.

It's pretty rare though, I know of a several instructors who had students freeze or do the wrong thing in a big way at the wrong time, but nobody else who had someone who actually froze to that degree. :)
Click to expand...

Was the student able to continue in training or did that freeze up finish him off? I am wondering how many students will come back after a freeze up.

I think I may have lightly frozen up during initial stalls during PP training, but it was in 1998 and I remember little of it other than being scared of stalls. My instructor was a really big guy so he could have over powered me easily. Unfortunately, we found out once when he was yelling at me that my temper was worse than his at the time. I yelled back at him even worse and took us back to the airport fuming. No more said that day.

David
 
While flying with Matt Sawhill today in his 140 I thought of another great method to get a male student off the controls. a quick slap or punch between the legs should have them curled up in the left seat crying with appendages no where near any of the controls. No I didn't have to resort to this while Matt was being coached through multi turn spins, but it came to mind as an excellent option.
 
tonycondon said:
While flying with Matt Sawhill today in his 140 I thought of another great method to get a male student off the controls. a quick slap or punch between the legs should have them curled up in the left seat crying with appendages no where near any of the controls. No I didn't have to resort to this while Matt was being coached through multi turn spins, but it came to mind as an excellent option.
Click to expand...
Might work for a male student, but the "target" isn't visible and is largely protected by the seated posture. Better to go for the clearly visible target of the nose or the eyes.

As my chief instructor would say, "don't be dicking around, just get it done!" :)
 
Last edited:
For females the "target" is higher and easier to spot... on some people. :rolleyes:

Ohh, I didn't really post that, did I?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top