Damn Good Controller

Why is this an acceptable occurrence?

It just happens sometimes. Basically, combine inexperienced student mil controllers, throw in some weather, and then toss in an emergency. Most mil fields all but shut down in the event of an emergency, and a guy taking a trap will foul the deck for a while. When everyone else in the conga line started heading home, they had about 30 minutes of fuel left if they were going to immediately go to max endurance airspeed at a decent altitude (teens or better). When it happens, you are normally already well below that fuel, and within 20 miles of the field and all of a sudden everyone is holding or being vectored around. At 3k ft (standard arrival altitude here), you burn gas fast. It isn't anyone's fault, and it really isn't practical to plan for it happening....otherwise we would get no training done. It comes down to everyone being a smart aviator, and deciding that enough is enough and that a divert is in order.
 
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Would/should a civilian ATC know the TACAN channel by heart or is it something he/she would have to look up? Just wondering why he didn't automatically provide it to a military aircraft:dunno:

He was probably reading the info off the approach plate. He should have known to provide the TACAN channel for a TACAN approach.
 
Thanks,
Yeah I forgot that the TACAN channel is on the chart right under the VOR frequency. Brain fart:mad2::lol:

There is also a numerical conversion between VORTAC freq's and TACAN channels, but I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one in my ready room that is aware of this fact. To get TACAN from VORTAC you move the decimal one left and subtract 1063 from the VHF number. So 117.6 gives you 113, or 113X, my homefield TACAN (1176 - 1063 = 113). Like I said, not really common knowledge.
 
There is also a numerical conversion between VORTAC freq's and TACAN channels, but I'm pretty sure that I'm the only one in my ready room that is aware of this fact. To get TACAN from VORTAC you move the decimal one left and subtract 1063 from the VHF number. So 117.6 gives you 113, or 113X, my homefield TACAN (1176 - 1063 = 113). Like I said, not really common knowledge.

Thanks, they didn't teach that in Falcon 3.0/4.0 :rofl:

I was just about to ask about the X. For example, the Sparta vortac in NJ(SAX) is channel 104. Do you guys say 104X or just 104? and why X?
 
No he climbed for the bingo profile. No minimum altitude on the NACES, at least in normal controlled level-ish flight. a 1.8 in any Hornet is no place to be when you aren't breaking out. This is a good example of why we need a civilian ILS, since it's a TACAN only unless the field has PAR or ASR.
thanks!
 
Hey wait a minute, that formula didn't work for Sparta... 115.7 (1157-1063=94) but the TACAN channel is 104.

My bad. Channels 70 and above the factor is 1053, not 1063 like it is below CH 70. So my example was wrong. Have never used or had to use this, so good thing I didn't try :)
 
Thanks, they didn't teach that in Falcon 3.0/4.0 :rofl:

I was just about to ask about the X. For example, the Sparta vortac in NJ(SAX) is channel 104. Do you guys say 104X or just 104? and why X?

On the TACAN set, you can choose either X or Y. There aren't really a whole lot of TACAN's that are Yankee, but when you use air to air TACAN (for ranging between aircraft), you can deconflict with others in your flight using X or Y. As in a lead can have Xray ranging to his wingman, and Yankee ranging to his -3 (or section lead) by simply switching between X and Y on the UFC. I haven't noticed any stan when communicating a channel with ATC, as I don't normally ask them for TACAN channels, but if I did, I'd probably say "confirm that is 103X?" or something
 
Oh didn't realize it was military. I looked for the call sign "empire" and found a cargo airline. Why would a military aircraft no be able to get a VORTAC?

I thought the same thing when I first saw it until I read further and recognized the details. "Grew up" flying around the Empire cargo dudes at KEUG and KPDX. Anyway, the Hornet is TACAN only, though we have shipboard ILS (called ICLS) which is totally incompatible with the ILS that everyone else uses, as well as ACLS which is not really analogous to anything outside of carrier aviation. Oddly enough the brevity term for the ICLS (which looks exactly like ILS needles) is "bullseye" and the term for ACLS (which looks exactly like a circular dot on your HUD, or perhaps, a bullseye? :) ) is "needles". Nothing ever makes sense in the military though
 
There was a similar incident in the Chicago area in '86, but even more dramatic-- it was an F-16 and it flamed out at 25,000' over Lake Michigan. A controller in the tracon vectored him to a successful deadstick landing (in IFR weather!) at Navy Glenview.

The controller had no transponder or altitude readout from the airplane-- he worked it from raw radar, and readily admitted that it was sheer luck that the airplane ran out of altitude at the same time it reached the runway. Anywhere else, for a wide radius around, would have put the F-16 into a heavily populated area.

All the papers called both pilot and controller heroes, and they both received some awards-- but they both got their hands soundly slapped behind closed doors, too. The controller, for conducting a makeshift GCA approach to a final approach course that wasn't even depicted on the radar map; the pilot, for electing to attempt the landing at Glenview, rather than punching out over Lake Michigan.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-17/news/mn-16580_1_air-traffic-controller
 
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There was a similar incident in the Chicago area in '86, but even more dramatic-- it was an F-16 and it flamed out at 25,000' over Lake Michigan. A controller in the tracon vectored him to a successful deadstick landing (in IFR weather!) at Navy Glenview.

The controller had no transponder or altitude readout from the airplane-- he worked it from raw radar, and readily admitted that it was sheer luck that the airplane ran out of altitude at the same time it reached the runway. Anywhere else, for a wide radius around, would have put the F-16 into a heavily populated area.

All the papers called both pilot and controller heroes, and they both received some awards-- but they both got their hands soundly slapped behind closed doors, too. The controller, for conducting a makeshift GCA approach to a final approach course that wasn't even depicted on the radar map; the pilot, for electing to attempt the landing at Glenview, rather than punching out over Lake Michigan.

http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-17/news/mn-16580_1_air-traffic-controller/

Now that was a great controller. Thanks for posting. :yes:
 
-106 uses "Roman" for both SH and Legacy now. Empire is an old callsign that isn't used anymore.

Thanks, didn't realize they changed it. You know if this was an IP or a student?
 
Why is this an acceptable occurrence?

Except for the student military controller :wink2:, 35 AOA pretty much hit it on the head.

Here's the usual scenario when things go bad. You have a bunch of fighters going out to the Warning Area and doing their dogfighting thing. When they RTB they don't have much fuel to be messing around. Throw in some unexpected thunderstorms and instead of doing a gas saving overhead / carrier break, now you gotta split them up for individual PARs. So instead of going direct the initial, they're strung out all over the airspace in a dirty configuration, awaiting their approach turn. If the wx sucks bad enough, guys are going to start going missed and begin declaring "minimum fuel". Next time around someone shoots through final because GCA couldn't get a target because the rain was too heavy or he had his antenna in the wrong piece of sky. Now you gotta box the aircraft back around again. Pilot says he doesn't "have the gas" for that and requests a Contact Approach. Crap! You clear the aircraft for a Contact Approach to a crossing runway (not exactly by the book )as not to interfere with the GCA pattern. Tower sends the Contact Approach around because the crossing runway is fouled. The Contact now declares emergency fuel and tower has the Hornet on 3 mile GCA final to "abandon approach to the right" to clear airspace for the emergency. That GCA Hornet who is already minimum, now declares emergency fuel for being busted out to the right.

So, you can see things can spiral out of control with the right elements in place. You can bet through the years at tactical bases all around the country, there have been some high pucker factors in both cockpits and radar rooms. Fortunately on both sides of the frequency we almost always find a way to make a favorable outcome. :)
 
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Good point - I missed the TAC part....thought he was offered just a VOR

The approach offered was the TACAN 30L. The navaid had to be a TACAN or VORTAC. As pointed out, brain fart on both the controller and the pilot for not realizing it.
 
The approach offered was the TACAN 30L. The navaid had to be a TACAN or VORTAC. As pointed out, brain fart on both the controller and the pilot for not realizing it.
Got it - I was reading throught the transcript - can't access the recording here and I missed the TACAN part - just saw the comment that he was 'unable' VORTACs and forgot that the TAC part of VORTAC refers to TACAN.
 
On the TACAN set, you can choose either X or Y. There aren't really a whole lot of TACAN's that are Yankee, but when you use air to air TACAN (for ranging between aircraft), you can deconflict with others in your flight using X or Y. As in a lead can have Xray ranging to his wingman, and Yankee ranging to his -3 (or section lead) by simply switching between X and Y on the UFC. I haven't noticed any stan when communicating a channel with ATC, as I don't normally ask them for TACAN channels, but if I did, I'd probably say "confirm that is 103X?" or something

Thanks. Great info!
Never knew TACAN could be used air to air.
 
Yeah to be quite honest, I'm not going to stake my wings on potentially flying a 30+ million dollar jet into the ground using a handheld "ILS" that I bought off the internet. I mean, I guess I would be dead at that point so it wouldn't matter, but if I were to somehow survive, in the cold hard monday morning quarterbacking of a FNAEB, I really doubt this excuse would fly. Either would simply running out of gas on an airnav flight. Regardless of our navaid limitations stateside, there is no real excuse for boxing yourself into this kind of corner, even if weather doesn't progress as forecast. There is a reason that every time I go on the road into IMC with a final destination being a field like this, that I have a divert within IFR fuel reserves that has 1) an acceptable precision approach for my aircraft (ie PAR), and 2) arresting gear. A gear being a consideration whether VMC or IMC. This basically means that I need a field with such requirements within about 100 nm. If I lower the gear and have a gear failure that requires a fly-in arrestment and for me to not raise them again (not uncommon in the Hornet), I'd better be pretty close to a dirty bingo from a field that has gear. That is kind of irrelevant here, but the point is that they didn't appear to have a good plan B. Never an option in a jet (or really any other airplane for that matter). /monday morning quarterbacking :)
 
Yeah to be quite honest, I'm not going to stake my wings on potentially flying a 30+ million dollar jet into the ground using a handheld "ILS" that I bought off the internet. I mean, I guess I would be dead at that point so it wouldn't matter, but if I were to somehow survive, in the cold hard monday morning quarterbacking of a FNAEB, I really doubt this excuse would fly. Either would simply running out of gas on an airnav flight. Regardless of our navaid limitations stateside, there is no real excuse for boxing yourself into this kind of corner, even if weather doesn't progress as forecast. There is a reason that every time I go on the road into IMC with a final destination being a field like this, that I have a divert within IFR fuel reserves that has 1) an acceptable precision approach for my aircraft (ie PAR), and 2) arresting gear. A gear being a consideration whether VMC or IMC. This basically means that I need a field with such requirements within about 100 nm. If I lower the gear and have a gear failure that requires a fly-in arrestment and for me to not raise them again (not uncommon in the Hornet), I'd better be pretty close to a dirty bingo from a field that has gear. That is kind of irrelevant here, but the point is that they didn't appear to have a good plan B. Never an option in a jet (or really any other airplane for that matter). /monday morning quarterbacking :)

If this happens as often as stated above, I as John Q Taxpayer will be happy to provide them as standard issue for stateside use. Easy math: $400 vs $40million
 
If this happens as often as stated above, I as John Q Taxpayer will be happy to provide them as standard issue for stateside use. Easy math: $400 vs $40million

My point being that who knows how accurate or safe using said handheld would be in actual conditions. Keep in mind that we have a ton of stuff emitting out the nose of the aircraft, as well as around the fuselage. I'm not an RF interference expert, but I'd be willing to bet there is a chance it wouldn't work as advertised. I guess something to try on a VFR day when you can tell for sure, but the bottom line is that it isn't equipment approved for flight as far as the Navy is concerned.
 
My point being that who knows how accurate or safe using said handheld would be in actual conditions. Keep in mind that we have a ton of stuff emitting out the nose of the aircraft, as well as around the fuselage. I'm not an RF interference expert, but I'd be willing to bet there is a chance it wouldn't work as advertised. I guess something to try on a VFR day when you can tell for sure, but the bottom line is that it isn't equipment approved for flight as far as the Navy is concerned.
Jay has obviously never dealt with NATOPS...
 
Jay has obviously never dealt with NATOPS...

Or NAVAIR/PMA-whatever for that matter. At least we have ipads authorized now, though foreflight isn't. That being said, when I had some questions related to one of our avionics systems that we were having routine problems with (this being when I was the NATOPS O) a while back, they were actually super helpful in getting me in touch with the engineers that did the softeware integration.
 
FF is offering free stuff to the military. Possibly they're trying to gift them the Kool-Aid.
 
My point being that who knows how accurate or safe using said handheld would be in actual conditions. I guess something to try on a VFR day when you can tell for sure, but the bottom line is that it isn't equipment approved for flight as far as the Navy is concerned.

If you had one in the plane and had tested it out several times VFR and it worked well, would you consider it in an emergency like this?

I don't have one of the sporty's radios (I have a king handheld with VOR though and it works well) but I spent a lot of time flying around IFR with a yoke mounted garmin area 510. I used it on lots of approaches and it was always spot on.

If I had an emergency (complete electrical failure in IMC, something of that nature) and had no other options due to fuel or whatever, I would use everything at my disposal which would likely mean flying an approach with an un-approved GPS or my handheld VOR reciever.

I understand things are different in the military and you might get screwed somehow. But for civil operations I think flying an approach with an unapproved device is legal per 91.3 (b) depending on the emergency situation.


On another note it would be a tough call for the pilot if he had to pick between options of a radar approach at a field he wasn't quite sure he could make, or shoot an ILS with a handheld at a nearby field. I'd probably take the ILS if I had tested it several times and knew how to use it. At least if he went missed he would have a few minutes to fly to a remote area and punch out
 
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Rules for these electronic devices aren't the same in the military as they are for civilian flying. It's not about trying something out and seeing if it affects the avionics and then it's good to go. I'm sure that the red tape that 35 AOA experiences in the Navy is like what we get in the Army. Any portable electronic device used must have an airworthiness release for it issued by Redstone AL. Even then the PIC is the final approval authority on any item listed in the AWR. Plenty of aircraft in theater using handheld GPSs. We bought a bunch of 496s and had no AWR to use them but we still did anyway. iPads have only recently been approved for use in some units.
 
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If you had one in the plane and had tested it out several times VFR and it worked well, would you consider it in an emergency like this?

If I had an emergency (complete electrical failure in IMC, something of that nature) and had no other options due to fuel or whatever, I would use everything at my disposal which would likely mean flying an approach with an un-approved GPS or my handheld VOR reciever.

On another note it would be a tough call for the pilot if he had to pick between options of a radar approach at a field he wasn't quite sure he could make, or shoot an ILS with a handheld at a nearby field. I'd probably take the ILS if I had tested it several times and knew how to use it. At least if he went missed he would have a few minutes to fly to a remote area and punch out

Couple thoughts....

1) For your example, if I lose both gens and both batteries in the Hornet, I am ejecting. You lose the flight control system with no electricity, so that is game over. It will depart controlled flight within a couple of seconds after that. One scenario where something like the handheld could be useful would be nordo in hard IMC to minimums. But if that happened and I had enough fuel to go somewhere else, I would go to there. I never walk to the jet without having a general idea of where to turn to if I can't land back home (or at my destination).....ie a suitable and legal weather divert. If I gooned away my fuel reserves enough to be shooting a PAR to mins without a divert option, then I have really failed at my job......but in that specific scenario, yes, I would try the handheld if I knew it worked from previous experience. Honestly though, before I did that, I would use the air to ground radar, designate the end of the runway, and fly a normal approach using that. Not an option everywhere (specifically due to terrain considerations), but around here, I can do that without any real danger to myself.

2) Like McFly said, the red tape and the operational testing costs prohibit cool things like this. Our version of ASRS (called ASAP) is always flooded with anecdotal stories of why a civilian ILS would have prevented some safety of flight related hazard. Every NATOPS (our procedures standardization program) conference brings the issue up as well. It is a high visibility complaint within the community to say the least. And yet, each year, it is rejected due to lack of funds, interest, or some combination of both.

3) If I am going to use an unauthorized gadget to get me out of a corner of poor airmanship, I had better get out of it without breaking a jet. If I planted a jet into a house and ejected just prior due to some weird interaction of a handheld ILS, I would be done flying. I know that isn't a reason to not use it in extremis, but that maybe sort of explains the mindset to trying things that aren't on the ok to use list. Plenty of other ways (that have saved many a Hornet in it's 30 yr career) to avoid needing to use one to save an aircraft. Good planning, good situational awareness in flight, and good decision making are all high on that list.

4) If I were presented with the PAR to mins vs ILS to not mins option, it would just depend on how good that alternate wx was and if I had the fuel to get there. I'd take the handheld ILS to maybe TACAN mins, but if some other field had that, I'd just fly the TACAN. Otherwise, if it were iffy both places, I'd take the PAR hands down. I routinely fly PAR's to touchdown in VMC, just to see how good they do. Generally they get me onto the runway in a safe manner. If it were IMC, I would be comfortable flying one to the runway (as in below mins) if it were my only option.
 
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