Dale Snodgrass crash in Idaho

[geezer]

I am going to cut Dale just a little slack.

I have flown J 3's, a Luscombe and Aeronca Champ. All of them locked the controls with the seat belt. That is rather standard with tail draggers with stick controls.

Let us suppose that he landed, parked the plane, and installed that unusual and ignoreable control lock. Further, he then wrapped the seat belt around the stick, and pulled it tight. Old habits are hard to leave behind when the technology changes.

Now, if he finishes shopping, loads the plane, and releases the seatbelt from the stick, good to go. NOT.
Fire up the engine, stick full back to keep the tail down while taxing, and while doing the runup. Still OK, but he should have done the full movement check.

Pull onto the runway, stick still back to keep the tail down, and start the takeoff roll. When the speed for raising the tail came, the stick is "stuck", and before he realizes how serious it is, the powerful plane is in the air, and all is lost.

I can see how he believed he had released the controls when he seated himself and fastened the seat belt, but the failure to do full, free and proper control movement at the predeparture check was the failure that got him.

In his past life, he probably had a crew chief who preflighted his aircraft for him, and there are a lot of checks we routinely do that he may not have routinely done.

RIP a really great pilot. A routine item caught him.

 

[kell490]

Is it common to not use a check list? Is this something that typical higher time pilots.

 

[Ed Haywood]

So did Snort:

A - fail to execute his preflight checklist?
B - modify the checklist to disengage the gust lock later?
C - reengage the gust lock after preflight?

 

[david.h]

I will walk around and inspect the control surfaces, including watching the hinges from stop to stop. And full motion on all 4 corners in the plane cause my fat legs need to know where to be. Control is the only thing keeping you alive, and mechanical failure scares the **** out of me. This should not happen, engineer a better lock that is obvious if you need to poke-e-yoke this thing. But how this happens is beyond me.

 

[dtuuri]

So did Snort:

A - fail to execute his preflight checklist?
B - modify the checklist to disengage the gust lock later?
C - reengage the gust lock after preflight?

After, (c) seems more plausible to me. He may have wanted to secure it while he fumbled with a hand-held device or something that needed both hands. The stick could have been moving around, so he latched it temporarily? I'd think getting into the seat would be a lot easier if the lock were placed on the floor to move the stick forward out of the way, so I doubt it was a preflight oversight. The report also said the pitch trim was in a "nose down" position. With locked controls, the pitch trim acts opposite of normal, so it would be like applying even more nose-up trim. That might have caused him to push harder on the stick and that in turn might have made it harder to disengage the gust lock.

 

[Albany Tom]

It sucks that he made those mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. I am glad that the NTSB found the root cause, though, and we know it and can learn from it. It's nothing really new, I suppose, but it reinforces what we already knew.

 

[Mahneuvers]

Is it common to not use a check list?...

I had an instructor tell me once, for a 172, you don't need a checklist. I thought it odd and ignored the advice. I always use a checklist.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Of course we could take this further for the point of discussion.

Why is a gust lock inoperable from the seat?

Flap and gear levers used to be the same shape….

Still see carb heat and mixture controls that look the same…

Saw a guy grab the red knob (fuel cutoff) right next to the blue knob (prop control) in a pt6 powered jump plane recently…

The condition lever should have a lock on it to prevent what you describe. If it does not I would be real surprised to hear that’s an airworthy condition.

 

[kell490]

Would think he would noticed the rudder peddles reduced deflection by at least 80% I know the NTSB said one could taxi it around with the small amount of deflection. If your about to take off think he would try to move the rudder more then that.

Would there be any possible reason to taxi around with the lock in place then remove it before take off?

The NTSB did release the final report quickly 1 year later.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I'm not going to lie: I have an extremely simple aircraft and use a memorized flow. My pre-takeoff checklist is:

• Controls free and clear, trim set
• Panel settings left to right
• Run up engine; check Mags, Prop, Alt Air
• Cockpit secure

 

[Fearless Tower]

Would think he would noticed the rudder peddles reduced deflection by at least 80% I know the NTSB said one could taxi it around with the small amount of deflection. If your about to take off think he would try to move the rudder more then that.

Would there be any possible reason to taxi around with the lock in place then remove it before take off?

I don't read it that way at all. The airplane had two separate locks - one for the rudder pedals and one for the stick.

With the stick lock only, which they determined was most likely in place during the accident, the NTSB said allowed near full movement of the rudder and tailwheel.

 

[Zeldman]

Is it common to not use a check list? Is this something that typical higher time pilots.

When I flew for a living, I had flow checks for every step. For example before entering the runway I would do the pre-take off flow, which included the 3rd time I would check controls free and clear, which was not in the checklist. After the flow I would consult the check list to make sure I got everything.

At one time I was current in the C-206, C-210, C-310, C-340, C-414 and C-425 and never knew day to day which plane I would fly. Or I could have flown 3 different planes in one day.

When I was in Alaska doing 10-15+ landings a day for 20 days straight, or longer, I admit it was sometimes hard to pick up the checklist after every flow check.

When I was an instructor mainly flying the mighty C-152, I had the normal procedures checklist memorized front and backwards....

 

[Eldorado]

Inexperience, complacency, distractions affects all pilots regardless of skill/age/knowledge. I’m sure he would blame no one but himself.

 

[Tools]

This is a mishap. ALL mishaps contain a chain of problems, ANY of which is easy to eliminate. The likelihood of ALL of them prevailing is small… yet it happens. This is fact.

Checklists are fine. Flows are fine. Flows backed up by checklists are fine. ALL of these methods have served me well.

SOMETHING else happened to break the normal pattern he used to successfully fly this plane. THAT is the root cause, and the thing from which we can learn the MOST. We do not know what that is.

 

[luvflyin]

This is a mishap. ALL mishaps contain a chain of problems, ANY of which is easy to eliminate. The likelihood of ALL of them prevailing is small… yet it happens. This is fact.

Checklists are fine. Flows are fine. Flows backed up by checklists are fine. ALL of these methods have served me well.

SOMETHING else happened to break the normal pattern he used to successfully fly this plane. THAT is the root cause, and the thing from which we can learn the MOST. We do not know what that is.

And there were other 'speculations' here about what may have happened. While they didn't turn out to be correct, hopefully thought about them, and learning that may have happened from that, might be what prevents some future mishap.

 

[kell490]

I don't read it that way at all. The airplane had two separate locks - one for the rudder pedals and one for the stick.

With the stick lock only, which they determined was most likely in place during the accident, the NTSB said allowed near full movement of the rudder and tailwheel.

From the control lock study it shows rudder locking tabs as part of the control lock, but later they say even with those tabs it still allowed almost full travel deflection. IT's obvious he never once tried to move the control stick before he applied full power.

Do turboprops do runups check prop controls maybe he put the lock on when he did the runup after he did a control check forgot to take it off.

 

[Tools]

Not that we’ll ever know, but it’s something like he didn’t normally use the control lock, because it’s usually hangared and this time it wasn’t…

Or his routine got interrupted at the point he usually removed the control lock…

Or his control check routine was interrupted by something….

So there I was… safe for solo flight T2 Buckeye. You actually stick your head in the compressor section of each engine… I forgot one side, unbeknownst by me. I forgot it because I asked a question or something RIGHT at that point in the preflight. Buttoned it all up correctly, just never looked.

How do I know this? Glad you asked…. Read on!

As we were cinching all our harness straps right before climbing in, I noticed my instructor was missing his flashlight. I pointed that out. He got pretty red faced!

He planted it in the compressor section for me to find, or not…. He forgot about it because I asked a question RIGHT at that point…

Yikes. It happens. We got lucky.

 

[Country Flier]

My aircraft's checklist has the check "controls free and correct" at three different times (preflight check, runup check, and pre-takeoff check), and admittedly in the past, I thought it was a bit ridiculous/didn't think it was necessary...not any more.

 

[SebIp]

The radio calls before takeoff shows some slight confusion. Maybe was distracted.

Strange the interview parts of the report had people emphasizing his 90 minutes preflight. Yet the conclusion is the control locks were in. Like someone said above don’t we all wiggle the controls on the walk around? Guess the real reason why the locks was on we’ll never really know.

 

[dtuuri]

My aircraft's checklist has the check "controls free and correct" at three different times (preflight check, runup check, and pre-takeoff check), and admittedly in the past, I thought it was a bit ridiculous/didn't think it was necessary...not any more.

Heh, my flight engineer instructor told us, "That's 'back-checking'! We don't have time for that at the airlines! That's for hockey!" Point being, to have a flow — an SOP, and then follow up with a simple checklist that catches the safety of flight items. I would add that if you ever undo a completed item, you should either keep one hand on it until you redo it or redo the entire checklist again as though it never happened.

 

[flyingron]

Mine only has two free and correct call. One before engine start in the preflight stuff and one at the runup.

It does however have the "check gear handle down" several times before engine start.

I guess it must have been a calm day. While the control lock left the rudders and tailwheel free, you'd think in a taildragger like that you'd have put some taxi correction in other than holding the stick in your belly.

 

[Mach Diamond]

"A silent checklist is a mortician's dream"

My flight instructor taught me to not only read off every item on the checklist out loud and visually confirm, but to also physically touch every control/knob listed and point to every gauge/light. Every item in the checklist is an oral, visual, and tactile event.

 

[RussR]

While obviously a thorough preflight and control check would have found this prior to takeoff, I can't help but think a control lock that is basically hidden to the pilot and does not interfere with ground operations is a pretty lousy design. Most control locks I'm familiar with are designed to be far more obvious than that. For example, the standard Cessna lock that blocks the ignition switch. Or the Piper ones with the flags hanging off the yokes. Even the King Air uses one that threads from the yoke to the throttle quadrant, immobilizing both. Heck, even the old "seatbelt" method prevents you from getting in or sitting down.

 

[Tantalum]

Heck, even the old "seatbelt" method prevents you from getting in or sitting down.

That's why I love this on Pipers. It's "low tech" but fairly fool proof. I was taught to wiggle the control surfaces during preflight. Even if you don't use a checklist but follow a memory flow that's kind of a guaranteed* way to make sure they're actually free

*nothing is a guarantee - but for those that for one reason or another don't use checklists the "wiggle first" technique seems reasonable

 

[Grum.Man]

Mine only has two free and correct call. One before engine start in the preflight stuff and one at the runup.

It does however have the "check gear handle down" several times before engine start.

I guess it must have been a calm day. While the control lock left the rudders and tailwheel free, you'd think in a taildragger like that you'd have put some taxi correction in other than holding the stick in your belly.

Even if it was a calm day I can’t imagine not at least pulling the stick/yoke back into your lap at least one during startup, taxi, or run up in a TW airplane. I know nothing of the type but makes you wonder if there was a way to partially remove the lock allowing up elevator but not down..

 

[flyingron]

Even if it was a calm day I can’t imagine not at least pulling the stick/yoke back into your lap at least one during startup, taxi, or run up in a TW airplane. I know nothing of the type but makes you wonder if there was a way to partially remove the lock allowing up elevator but not down..

I think that the control lock holds it full back and if that's the way you're used to taxiing absent wind (or with a headwind), then you might not notice, though with any turn that would result in any other direction, you'd want to move the stick. Of course, years of driving heavy, nosewheel aircraft may have contributed to taxi sloppiness. Still on the takeoff roll, any crosswind would have led me to do something with the stick.

The question is when he realized he had screwed up. The best thing if you weren't yet off the ground or too high is to just chop the power and ride it out as best you can. Sort of like loosing one on a twin under v1.

 

[AKBill]

I must admit many years ago I once left the control lock in and found out during the takeoff roll. I was able to remove it just before lift off. NEVER AGAIN was my thought. It only takes one time for things to go south.

 

[david.h]

I think that the control lock holds it full back and if that's the way you're used to taxiing absent wind (or with a headwind), then you might not notice, though with any turn that would result in any other direction, you'd want to move the stick. Of course, years of driving heavy, nosewheel aircraft may have contributed to taxi sloppiness. Still on the takeoff roll, any crosswind would have led me to do something with the stick.

The question is when he realized he had screwed up. The best thing if you weren't yet off the ground or too high is to just chop the power and ride it out as best you can. Sort of like loosing one on a twin under v1.

When he said "Oh Sh#t".

 

[FlightmechH3]

We had a scroll checklist in our helos. There was only one time the AC and co-pilot missed an item during landing, which was landing gear down. We had a long rescue and everyone was dealing with saturation issues. We were in flare out when I caught it.

I was in the habit, along with the avionicsman, to check LT and RT gear down and look up front for the 3 green indicators. I was exhausted and behind the 8 ball and should have caught it earlier along with the pilots.

 

[Capngrog]

I can't speak for flying a stick or this plane, but even if I had a gust lock in there is NO WAY I wouldn't know prior to takeoff if it was engaged, even without doing a preflight check. I simply could not be in my plane, moving around, and not notice the yoke not moving. I mean I bump it, I lean on it, I hang my headset on it, I push it in for pax to get in.....if it was locked I would absolutely know long before an actual flight control check. not sure how that translates to this incident, because it's clear none of those things happened.

I'm with eman 1200 on this one. In my limited and long ago flying days, it seemed either the stick or yoke was in the way of something, and I would frequently be bumping it or moving it around. I think I would have noticed if it was locked ... maybe not.

I wish I could delete my Post #269 (Aug. 17, 2021) in which I consigned the control lock question to the bottom of the Possible Cause Pile (PCP). I should have paid more attention to dtuuri, who considered the control lock to have been a prime possibility in this crash. I guess my thinking was influenced by the fact that Dale was such an accomplished and experienced pilot, I just couldn't see him not doing a flight control freedom of movement check prior to takeoff. I think we've all missed a thing or two on a checklist, but checking the movement of flight controls was always instinctive to me.

Dale Snodgrass ... R.I.P.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I can't get past the poor taildraggery. You always pull the stick fully to the rear to hold the tail down when starting and taxiing. Taxing with the elevator in neutral is just begging for a nose-over and prop strike. Very sloppy airmanship. See pictures below for what happens when you get lazy about keeping the stick back.

By all accounts Snort was not a sloppy pilot. I find it hard to believe he made a habit of taxiing around without holding the stick back. That makes me believe he reengaged the gust lock at some point. Probably needed both hands free to do something, and did not want the controls flopping around. Or maybe he developed a bad habit of keeping the gust lock engaged until runup.

Listening to the audio, sounds like he was surprised to be cleared for takeoff so soon. Also sounds like he forgot to switch from ground to tower frequency when he took the runway. Both are indicators he was in a hurry. Maybe he skipped the runup or planned to do a rolling runup.

 

[eman1200]

I can't get past the poor taildraggery. You always pull the stick fully to the rear to hold the tail down when starting and taxiing. Taxing with the elevator in neutral is just begging for a nose-over and prop strike. Very sloppy airmanship. See pictures below. ..

but lemme ask u something, as I'm not a stick driver......in my mind, when u pull the stick all the way back, it's, well, pretty close to your junk, no? so my question is, how can you even get into the seat with the stick stuck that far back, wouldn't u either bump into it or MOVE it forward so you can get in the seat?

 

[Grum.Man]

I think that the control lock holds it full back and if that's the way you're used to taxiing absent wind (or with a headwind), then you might not notice, though with any turn that would result in any other direction, you'd want to move the stick. Of course, years of driving heavy, nosewheel aircraft may have contributed to taxi sloppiness. Still on the takeoff roll, any crosswind would have led me to do something with the stick.

The question is when he realized he had screwed up. The best thing if you weren't yet off the ground or too high is to just chop the power and ride it out as best you can. Sort of like loosing one on a twin under v1.

If you look at the screen captures of the accident, the elevator is definitely not in the full aft position. Another curiosity is why you would take off from a 3 point attitude with that size runway and airplane. Even if you were so absent minded as to not hold the stick back while taxing I would think it would be immediately obvious when you went to lift the tail on the takeoff roll.

 

[Fearless Tower]

If you look at the screen captures of the accident, the elevator is definitely not in the full aft position. Another curiosity is why you would take off from a 3 point attitude with that size runway and airplane. Even if you were so absent minded as to not hold the stick back while taxing I would think it would be immediately obvious when you went to lift the tail on the takeoff roll.

Some tailwheels normally takeoff from a 3 point attitude.

Most of the tailwheels I fly, stick is neutral at start of takeoff roll and either held there or slight forward pressure to lift tail once speed is up.

 

[FlightmechH3]

Looking at photos of the Marchetti control lock. I'm making an assumption that this big red contraption is attached to the pedals, pivots down to a spring clip on the floor, allowing free movement of the pedals. Is this the case?

Edit: looked at the report. The photo of the lock from the pilot's sight line in the seat demonstrates that the design works, but not very visible. Especially the connection to the stick.

Dale had to have been distracted.

 

[Lindberg]

I think that the control lock holds it full back and if that's the way you're used to taxiing absent wind (or with a headwind), then you might not notice, though with any turn that would result in any other direction, you'd want to move the stick. Of course, years of driving heavy, nosewheel aircraft may have contributed to taxi sloppiness. Still on the takeoff roll, any crosswind would have led me to do something with the stick.

The question is when he realized he had screwed up. The best thing if you weren't yet off the ground or too high is to just chop the power and ride it out as best you can. Sort of like loosing one on a twin under v1.

Similar aircraft with the control lock installed. That's not full-stick-back elevator. More like neutral. That's no way to taxi a taildragger. I'm amazed anyone could taxi like this and not notice.

 

[Ed Haywood]

ALL taildraggers start the takeoff roll in the 3 point position.



After the roll starts, it is a matter of technique, personal preference, and aircraft characteristics. Some pilots aggressively lift the tail to level to reduce induced drag. Others relax the stick and let the tail fly itself until you reach rotation speed. IMO most pilots are taught method A, but learn to prefer method B.

One factor is the relationship between the aircraft stance on gear and the critical AoA.

The Marchetti is a fairly unusual aircraft in terms of power and performance, so could be there are some nuances to flying it that normal taildragger shlubs like me don't learn stumping around in Citabrias and homemade biplanes. Maybe Snort knew exactly what he was doing and just didn't do it right. Or maybe a gazillion hours of fast mover time doesn't fully translate to an extreme STOL aircraft.

I don't know why this accident fascinates me so much. I think it is the realization that if it happened to him, it can happen to ANYONE.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Complacency. It boils down to that.

Control checks are taught from the very beginning, in all aircraft. Checklist use is taught from the beginning, in all aircraft. Not doing one and not using the other drills down to complacency. One could argue he had a distraction. If that's the case, we have been taught to either stop the checklist and restart it, or do the complete checklist over.

 

[Daleandee]

I don't know why this accident fascinates me so much. I think it is the realization that if it happened to him, it can happen to ANYONE.

 

[flyingron]

Some tailwheels normally takeoff from a 3 point attitude.

It's the short field takeoff procedure in the 170. It also is clear why you're not "stalled" on landing despite what people call it.