Current Charts A Requirement???

T

Tex_Mike

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
194
Location
Houston
Display Name
Display name:
Tex_MIKE
Is there anything in the FARs requiring that a current chart and or AFD be in an airplane when flying as a private pilot? I could not find anything under part 61. I did find a few references under 91 and 135.

91 ans 135 reference "Pertinent" charts which I assume means current.

A second question- Do you guys always fly with current charts?
 
Nope no requirement for current charts. Same applies to out dated VFR GPS database. I didn't link it but the FAAs website has a page discussing it. Basically they say they have no stance on enforcing current charts. They do go on to say if you have some sort of FAR violation because of outdated charts, you can be punished.
 
Last edited:
There is USUALLY no requirement for current charts. But it's your fault if you screw up in a way that's on them.

There ARE a few specific chart requirements, but they don't apply universally. For example, 14 CFR 93.95.
 
No specific requirement. No reg against having old charts on board either.If you do something dumb, there are plenty of regs they can use to hang you... :yikes:
Now that I have Foreflight, I always have current charts :D
 
See http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/faq/#q2f for the FAA's statement on point. Bottom line is that there is no specific legal requirement for current charts for plain vanilla Part 91 operations, but there are a lot of ways to hang yourself if you don't have them, and the choice not to carry them adds strength to the FAA's rope. For certain Part 91 operations (like Subparts F and K), Part 135, Part 121, etc., there are specific rules requiring them, but that's another story.

Personally, I always fly with current charts and A/FD, even when the regulations do not require it.
 
I once had a CFI tell me that a current sectional needs to be on board. If a ramp check were done, we'd be in trouble if we didn't have one. I was never able to find a conclusive answer until reading the above link.

I been using Foreflight and WingX so I always have current charts available. I also have a paper sectional & AF/D as a backup in the event something happens to the iPad...however both of those are outdated. Regulatory or not I don't think I'd feel comfortable going somewhere unless I had all current info readily available in one form or another. Like what was said earlier the FAA has plenty to hang you with so why give them one more piece of ammo.
 
I always fly with current charts.
 
sacbluesman said:
I once had a CFI tell me that a current sectional needs to be on board. If a ramp check were done, we'd be in trouble if we didn't have one. .
Click to expand...
At one time, there was a statement in the GA Inspectors manual that directed inspectors to check for current charts. No doubt that there were some inspector who thought that it was therefore a requirement.
 
Tex_Mike said:
Is there anything in the FARs requiring that a current chart and or AFD be in an airplane when flying as a private pilot? I could not find anything under part 61. I did find a few references under 91 and 135.

91 ans 135 reference "Pertinent" charts which I assume means current.

A second question- Do you guys always fly with current charts?
Click to expand...

Pertinent does not mean current. If you are flying around Chicago using a Dallas section it is not pertinent, even if it is current.

Bob Gardner
 
midlifeflyer said:
At one time, there was a statement in the GA Inspectors manual that directed inspectors to check for current charts. No doubt that there were some inspector who thought that it was therefore a requirement.
Click to expand...
That statement is still there in the instructions for conducting a ramp check. Nothing says the Inspector is to write up a part 91 pilot just because s/he doesn't have them, but the Inspector is still supposed to check. I suppose that if you don't have them, you get some on-the-spot counseling about the advisability of carrying them, but not the start of an enforcement action. Remember that the FAA's first mission is safety, and it would be hard to argue that safety is not enhanced by having current charts aboard.
 
bobmrg said:
Pertinent does not mean current. If you are flying around Chicago using a Dallas section it is not pertinent, even if it is current.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
I might argue that "pertinent" in this context includes currency as well as applicability. IFR charts would not be pertinent to a VFR pilot, nor would Texas charts be pertinent to a pilot flying from Michigan to Illinois, but current Great Lakes area IFR charts would be pertinent to a pilot flying IFR from Detroit to Chicago.
 
  1. "You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
  2. "Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
  3. ..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board."
 
Current charts aren't a requirement (by my knowledge); however, I would rather have current charts instead of old ones in case I need to be aware of new airspace, radio frequencies, etc.
 
HerrGruyere said:
Current charts aren't a requirement (by my knowledge); however, I would rather have current charts instead of old ones in case I need to be aware of new airspace, radio frequencies, etc.
Click to expand...
That's the kind of thinking the FAA likes -- doing it for the right (safety) reason, not just because the FAA says you have to do it. If everyone thought that way, we'd have a lot fewer regulations as the FAA would not have to regulate us to do what we should already be doing for our own safety.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's the kind of thinking the FAA likes -- doing it for the right (safety) reason, not just because the FAA says you have to do it. If everyone thought that way, we'd have a lot fewer regulations as the FAA would not have to regulate us to do what we should already be doing for our own safety.
Click to expand...

I doubt that we would have fewer regulations. It isn't and has never been the government's role to be our babysitter. In the case of the FAA, the regulations are meant in large part to ensure safe operations for passengers whom you may carry as a certificated pilot, and ensure some standardization across the NAS. However, pesky politicians have also used them for their own personal benefit, where the end result is more restrictions for us but NO corresponding benefit to anyone's safety (the fallout from the Colgan Air crash comes to mind as a recent example).

These days, the best (and least-expensive) way to carry current charts is on an electronic device. For years I tried to keep on top of charts and chart subscriptions, and most of the time was throwing money away for zero benefit. Charts aren't always accurate, either.


JKG
 
Last edited:
A subscription to Foreflight is like 70 or 80 bucks. I picked up a new chart and an A/FD for 13 bucks. The chart is valid for half a year (at least!) and the AF/D maybe like a few months. I think that's a pretty cheap way to stay current!
 
HerrGruyere said:
A subscription to Foreflight is like 70 or 80 bucks. I picked up a new chart and an A/FD for 13 bucks. The chart is valid for half a year (at least!) and the AF/D maybe like a few months. I think that's a pretty cheap way to stay current!
Click to expand...

Sure, if you fly in one spot. How much does it cost to have charts for the entire eastern 2/3rds of the country?
 
HerrGruyere said:
A subscription to Foreflight is like 70 or 80 bucks. I picked up a new chart and an A/FD for 13 bucks. The chart is valid for half a year (at least!) and the AF/D maybe like a few months. I think that's a pretty cheap way to stay current!
Click to expand...

If you fly VFR in a limited area, paper charts and AFDs are the way to go. If you cover a larger area and you need IFR charts and approach plates, the paper gets clumsy and pricey in a hurry.
 
Back on topic: If you refuse to be ramp checked, the type of chart on board (or not) becomes moot..

Just tell the nice man you are 'too busy right now' and to send you a letter requesting to do an inspection and your attorney will arrange for a mutually convenient time and place... Then turn your back on him, sip your coffee and go on with your conversation...

A minute later one of the guys in the circle who could see out the windows said, "Man, I never saw someone slink back to his car looking like a whipped puppy, as that guy just did."
And he never sent a letter either...
 
Dr. O said:
Back on topic: If you refuse to be ramp checked, the type of chart on board (or not) becomes moot..

Just tell the nice man you are 'too busy right now' and to send you a letter requesting to do an inspection and your attorney will arrange for a mutually convenient time and place... Then turn your back on him, sip your coffee and go on with your conversation...

A minute later one of the guys in the circle who could see out the windows said, "Man, I never saw someone slink back to his car looking like a whipped puppy, as that guy just did."
And he never sent a letter either...
Click to expand...
Nice fantasy, Denny, no matter how many times you've told that tale. Too bad it doesn't happen that way -- at least, not without a bad ending for the pilot who does it like that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nice fantasy, Denny, no matter how many times you've told that tale. Too bad it doesn't happen that way -- at least, not without a bad ending for the pilot who does it like that.
Click to expand...
Just to be fair, do you happen to have the FAR handy that requires a plain vanilla Part 91 operator to permit a warrantless search of the aircraft. I'm familiar with the regulatory requirement to do so where a operating certificate holder is involved but I've never had a reason to see whether there is a Part 91 equivalent.

Interesting academic issue.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nice fantasy, Denny, no matter how many times you've told that tale. Too bad it doesn't happen that way -- at least, not without a bad ending for the pilot who does it like that.
Click to expand...

Do you have examples of that ?

If a ramp check would delay your departure, you can tell them to pound sand. That's why they do them on arriving aircraft.
 
HerrGruyere said:
A subscription to Foreflight is like 70 or 80 bucks. I picked up a new chart and an A/FD for 13 bucks. The chart is valid for half a year (at least!) and the AF/D maybe like a few months. I think that's a pretty cheap way to stay current!
Click to expand...
Depends where you fly.

Take Colorado as an example. In order to go one state in any direction, you need another chart, 4-5 in all for sectionals and 3-4 for AFDs. Let's stick with the smaller numbers and keep it simple VFR. And don't forget the DEN/COS TAC chart which covers a fairly large area.

Each of the sectional/TACs is good for 6 months; the AFD for 56 days. That's 8 sectionals, 2 TACs and 19.5 AFDs a year.

With an online retailer, you can get the AFDs for $4.60, the TACS for $5.05, and the Sectionals for $7.50.

I'm at about $160 for the year. My math could be suspect but that's more expensive than the FF subscription I have that includes full US coverage, both VFR and IFR with geo-refenced charts.

Maybe you need to get out more ;)
 
weilke said:
Do you have examples of that ?

If a ramp check would delay your departure, you can tell them to pound sand. That's why they do them on arriving aircraft.
Click to expand...
There's language about that in the Insepctor's handbook - requiring that the inspector exercise some judgment if a ramp check is going to cause a departure delay.
 
I got ramp checked a couple years ago. It took all of <5 minutes and was completely pleasant. If you have nothing to hide (i.e., you have your cert, medical and AROW), all you're asking for is a world of trouble if you refuse a basic ramp check.

Note that there are areas that require a current chart to be on board - the Los Angeles Special Flight Rules Area is one that I know for sure. I think the Grand Canyon is another, there might be others.

Jeff
 
There is very little in the AFD that I worry about if it is a year out of date, as long as the sectional is current I won't make my traffic calls on some other airports frequency.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Just to be fair, do you happen to have the FAR handy that requires a plain vanilla Part 91 operator to permit a warrantless search of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

There isn't, iirc. They need your permission to enter the aircraft in this particular case. They can of course ask for all the appropriate paperwork (AROW, etc.), and can note what's in plain view inside or outside the aircraft.

If they walk up to you and they already have a warrant, you've likely got bigger problems than a stupid ramp check. :yikes:
 
midlifeflyer said:
Just to be fair, do you happen to have the FAR handy that requires a plain vanilla Part 91 operator to permit a warrantless search of the aircraft.
Click to expand...
I thought we were discussing ramp checks, not a "warrentless search of the aircraft." But the FAR which requires you to present upon request your pilot documents is 14 CFR 61.3. Unlike the regulations pertaining to logbooks, which allow a reasonable amount of time to produce the documents for examination, those certificates must, when you are in a situation where the certificates must be present (like when you're flying the plane), be presented right then and there, and refusal to present them "upon request" is a violation of the regulation. The rest of the ramp check may be waived by the Inspector if the pilot's time is critical, but the 61.3-required documents (pilot, medical, and photo ID as appropriate) must be presented "upon request" which has been established to mean "now longer than it takes you to get them out of your pocket, purse, or airplane." Refusal to comply is a violation of 61.3, and punishable by sanctions.
 
weilke said:
If a ramp check would delay your departure, you can tell them to pound sand. That's why they do them on arriving aircraft.
Click to expand...
You have a regulation which says that? Because there is no such exception in 14 CFR 61.3, which is the regulation requiring you to present your pilot documents "upon request." As for the rest of the ramp check, you may request that it be waived, but that's only a request, and the Inspector doesn't have to allow it. And if you skate because you told the Inspector you're in a big hurry to get to your dying mother's bedside, you don't want to be seen by the same Inspector half an hour later eating your $100 burger in the airport coffee shop -- that could be a violation of 18 USC 1001, which is a lot more serious than any violation of Title 14 of the CFR.
 
Last edited:
rotorhead1026 said:
There isn't, iirc. They need your permission to enter the aircraft in this particular case. They can of course ask for all the appropriate paperwork (AROW, etc.), and can note what's in plain view inside or outside the aircraft.
Click to expand...
You mean like big bags of green vegetative matter?:eek:
 
weilke said:
There is very little in the AFD that I worry about if it is a year out of date, as long as the sectional is current I won't make my traffic calls on some other airports frequency.
Click to expand...

How about the Special Notices in the A/FD that notify pilots of frequency changes that occured after the current sectional was printed? A/FD every 56 days compared to sectionals every six months. Lots of things can change in six months.

Bob Gardner
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Sure, if you fly in one spot. How much does it cost to have charts for the entire eastern 2/3rds of the country?
Click to expand...

Agreed. I have (and keep current) at all times on my person:

CURRENT AFD
CURRENT TAC
CURRENT Sectional

I also have:

Klamath (North of here)
Old sectional taped to the back of my clipboard (my airport is on a flip and not a fold so to see it as "middle" you have to make photo copies)

Edit: I fly with Foreflight but give sectionals on clipboards to my passengers to have them at the ready at all times. In addition, I enjoy giving the old ones to students or CFI's who then give them to students. I never throw them away. I have never found anyone who said "no" to a free map. Most students are on a budget.
 
I figure that if I'm going to spend $120/hour flying, I can afford $5 every two months for an up to date A/FD and $15/year for sectionals. Just about every FBO or other rental facility has at least the local charts for sale.

No one has checked, but I'll even buy up to date charts ahead of time if I'm going to take ONE flight outside the San Francisco sectional from a remote FBO. I've picked up LA and Seattle sectionals that way (and the northwest A/FD), plus the LA TAC (I was in the Portland area, so the Seattle TAC was not necessary).

Current TACs are a necessity if you're going to be anywhere near Class B. They do change. The LAX SFRA changed the last time around; it now has associated Class D.

It's not required (except for the LA SFRA and a few others), but it's kinda stupid not to have them up to date. It's REALLY stupid not to have them at all, or to have them in a form you may not be able to get at (iPad, no backup).
 
Ron Levy said:
I thought we were discussing ramp checks, not a "warrentless search of the aircraft." But the FAR which requires you to present upon request your pilot documents is 14 CFR 61.3.
Click to expand...
I thought we were discussing the part of the ramp inspection that involves entry into and inspection of the interior of the aircraft to locate potential discrepancies (aka search without a warrant), not simply a request to view the documents that must be provided upon request.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I thought we were discussing the part of the ramp inspection that involves entry into and inspection of the interior of the aircraft to locate potential discrepancies (aka search without a warrant), not simply a request to view the documents that must be provided upon request.
Click to expand...
We were discussing Denny-O claiming to have told an FAA Inspector who wanted to do a ramp check to take a hike without showing the Inspector anything, and his claim that the Inspector just walked away. Also, there is nothing in the ramp inspection checklist which tells the Inspector to perform an "entry into and inspection of the interior of the aircraft to locate potential discrepancies." It says only to conduct an exterior "walkaround" inspection of the aircraft itself, and you don't need a warrant to do that. Neither does anyone else who is authorized to be on the ramp as long as they don't touch the plane.
 
Last edited:
True enough, Ron. Perhaps you can tell that to the inspectors who exceed their authority (I'm still trying to figure out how that guy knew the white marker in the Cessna trim wheel had lost its paint fro outside the airplane).

Yes, in a perfect world, government enforcement agents always follow all the rules and always act within their authority.

Guess we're talking about two different things.

And I didn't buy the full extent of Denny's story either.
 
Last edited:
And old chart can be better than a new one, depending upon where and how you are flying.

A Canadian float plane pilot had been flying the backcountry and annotated his chart with info about lakes, the best way to land and take off, the best fishing places, local pilots who would sell fuel, etc. It contained far more information than the current chart as it related to the safety of HIS flights.

That's a special circumstance, but I've always wished I could keep a sectional with notes about the places I had landed. But after six months, any sectional I used began coming apart.
 
I've heard that it could be worse on you if you were to get ramp checked and have expired charts, than no charts at all. I've not experience to this, and am only going off hearsay.

I have always had charts with me, current or just recently outdated, but I tend not to fly chartless. Although now with the iPad and Foreflight, as long as I keep those charts updated, I guess I would be less likely to have the paper charts with me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top