Current Charts A Requirement???

[flyingron]

There is very little in the AFD that I worry about if it is a year out of date, as long as the sectional is current I won't make my traffic calls on some other airports frequency.

If you don't have an AF/D, you have no clue whether your sectional is really current. The chart changes for the sectional are in the AF/D.

 

[Palmpilot]

I once bought new charts for part of my route, and then left them on the seat of my car. I didn't discover it until I was over a hundred miles from home. In that situation, the expired charts were definitely better than none at all!

 

[Clark1961]

And I didn't buy the full extent of Denny's story either.

Hard to tell with Denny's story. Perhaps the background is the coffee he was sipping was in the FBO and not in the vicinity of his aircraft?

If so that would make it the second time I've heard that story (papers please) when the FAA inspector had no right to expect the papers to be produced.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hard to tell with Denny's story. Perhaps the background is the coffee he was sipping was in the FBO and not in the vicinity of his aircraft?

If so that would make it the second time I've heard that story (papers please) when the FAA inspector had no right to expect the papers to be produced.

If the Inspector saw him land and taxi in, or otherwise knew that Denny had just landed, then the Inspector had every bit of necessary authority to require production and inspection of Denny's pilot papers, even if he was no longer in the vicinity of his aircraft.

 

[airguy]

If the Inspector saw him land and taxi in, or otherwise knew that Denny had just landed, then the Inspector had every bit of necessary authority to require production and inspection of Denny's pilot papers, even if he was no longer in the vicinity of his aircraft.

Allright, lemme ask you another scenario, that was told to me by an ag pilot a couple years ago. He was at the airport intending to depart in his personal aircraft (not ag), was unlocking the door to the airplane as he was approached by the inspector for a ramp check. He said that he told the inspector that he could only ramp-check him if he was operating or had intention to operate the aircraft, and in this case he had no intention of operation but was only retrieving a personal item from the aircraft. He said he then retrieved a pair of reading glasses from the console, locked the aircraft and walked away. No repercussions. Not really sure how true that story is or how long ago it was supposed to have happened.

Where is the line at? If my aircraft is on the flight line and I'm with it, I would expect I was subject to ramp check. If I'm in my open hangar with the parked aircraft, that's another story and might be subject to interpretation. If I'm in the hangar changing oil on my plane with the cowl off and I get ramp-checked, I am highly likely to tell the inspector to get bent and send my attorney a letter.

 

[poadeleted20]

Allright, lemme ask you another scenario, that was told to me by an ag pilot a couple years ago. He was at the airport intending to depart in his personal aircraft (not ag), was unlocking the door to the airplane as he was approached by the inspector for a ramp check. He said that he told the inspector that he could only ramp-check him if he was operating or had intention to operate the aircraft, and in this case he had no intention of operation but was only retrieving a personal item from the aircraft. He said he then retrieved a pair of reading glasses from the console, locked the aircraft and walked away. No repercussions. Not really sure how true that story is or how long ago it was supposed to have happened.

I suspect most inspectors would find other things to do around the airport while keeping an eye on that plane for the next hour or two. If the pilot really was intending to depart, that delay would, I think, constitute an appropriate punishment for lying to a Federal official in the performance of his duty.

 

[airguy]

I suspect most inspectors would find other things to do around the airport while keeping an eye on that plane for the next hour or two. If the pilot really was intending to depart, that delay would, I think, constitute an appropriate punishment for lying to a Federal official in the performance of his duty.

Agreed - once you made that your story, you had better make your story stick - but was the premise true? Can you tell the inspector to pound sand if you have no intention of operating the aircraft?

 

[poadeleted20]

Agreed - once you made that your story, you had better make your story stick - but was the premise true? Can you tell the inspector to pound sand if you have no intention of operating the aircraft?

That's a question I've never seen answered by the courts. My reading of the regulations suggests no cause or reason is needed for any party listed in 61.3 to require you to produce your pilot documents, but I know of no case on point. As for the rest of a ramp inspection, based on the direction to Inspectors in FAA Order 8900.1, I suspect that some operation of the aircraft would be required to trigger that action on the spot.

 

[denverpilot]

I suspect most inspectors would find other things to do around the airport while keeping an eye on that plane for the next hour or two. If the pilot really was intending to depart, that delay would, I think, constitute an appropriate punishment for lying to a Federal official in the performance of his duty.

Every airplane is eventually going to depart...

 

[Palmpilot]

Allright, lemme ask you another scenario, that was told to me by an ag pilot a couple years ago. He was at the airport intending to depart in his personal aircraft (not ag), was unlocking the door to the airplane as he was approached by the inspector for a ramp check. He said that he told the inspector that he could only ramp-check him if he was operating or had intention to operate the aircraft, and in this case he had no intention of operation but was only retrieving a personal item from the aircraft. He said he then retrieved a pair of reading glasses from the console, locked the aircraft and walked away. No repercussions. Not really sure how true that story is or how long ago it was supposed to have happened.

Where is the line at? If my aircraft is on the flight line and I'm with it, I would expect I was subject to ramp check. If I'm in my open hangar with the parked aircraft, that's another story and might be subject to interpretation. If I'm in the hangar changing oil on my plane with the cowl off and I get ramp-checked, I am highly likely to tell the inspector to get bent and send my attorney a letter.

Considering the wording of 61.3(l), it sounds to me like the guy managed to bluff his way out a ramp check.

Cap'n Ron mentioned not having seen a case that answers the question. Therefore it seems to me that we have two choices:

1. Follow the regs as written unless or until we hear about case law or something in writing from the FAA to the contrary.

2. Rely on what some guy got away with unless or until we hear about case law or something in writing from the FAA to the contrary.​

I think #1 is less likely to result in an enforcement action.

(Please note that I am not a lawyer, so nothing I say about this should be treated as authoritative.)

 

[Palmpilot]

As for the rest of a ramp inspection, based on the direction to Inspectors in FAA Order 8900.1, I suspect that some operation of the aircraft would be required to trigger that action on the spot.

Isn't it true that that FAA order is only binding on its inspectors? If so, I wouldn't feel confident in assuming that it would be enough to win an appeal if the FAA decided to initiate an enforcement action anyway.

 

[Ghery]

Perhaps I'm missing something here. I've only been flying for about 12 years and have never been ramp checked. The inspector, IIRC, is looking to see if I have the required documents (cert, DL and medical) and the plane has its required documents (ARROW). Nothing else, correct? So, how long would it take to show them to him? A couple minutes? As part of my pre-flight I make sure the plane is good to go, including ARROW. I don't leave for the airport without my required documentation. Get over it. I don't like government nonsense anymore than the rest of you, but this is getting rediculous. Or am I missing something here?

 

[rainsux]

> looking for the required documents ... Nothing else, correct?

Incorrect. Their handbook does not limit what they can *ask* ...

- Some things, you gotta have ... there & then.
- Some things, you can present at a later/convenient time.

On one of my ramp checks, the Inspector didn't follow their handbook:

- No ID showing

- Failed to introduce himself as FAA

- Just pedal'd up on an airport bike and began the usual hangar chat ... a
few mins later, I discovered it was a ramp check. ~45 seconds later he
(mistakenly) thought I was "an ATC puke ... you should've said something"
... then he pedal'd away for his next victim. Thankfully, this particular guy
did not last long at the FAA.

It may be kind'a rude, but if someone unknown to me, approaches me at
an airport ... I ask'm, "Are you FAA?"

 

[poadeleted20]

Isn't it true that that FAA order is only binding on its inspectors? If so, I wouldn't feel confident in assuming that it would be enough to win an appeal if the FAA decided to initiate an enforcement action anyway.

Absolutely true, but I just don't see too many Inspectors risking their job by violating that Order just to get one more ramp check done.