Cross-country frustrations

Country Flier said:
Since being pedantic is a requirement on POA, I think it only has to be 50.00000000001 (or less) to be considered greater than 50.
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I think the real answer is it has to meet whatever the DPE's definition of >50 NM is. Does he use Foreflight to measure? A plotter? A geodetic calculator? Back when we used paper, this occasionally created some issues, as one would measure with a plotter and one would measure with software, and get slightly different results. To add to the issue, the cartographers are allowed to move the airport symbols around slightly for various charting reasons like not covering something else up. I forget what the tolerance is, but it might have been like 1nm. That will throw off your measuring with a plotter!

I remember discussion where the airports were so close to 50 NM apart, people started arguing that measuring between airports was shorting them distance, and they should measure between runways, or takeoff and landing locations on the runway even.
 
Country Flier said:
Since being pedantic is a requirement on POA, I think it only has to be 50.00000000001 (or less) to be considered greater than 50.
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From the tie-down? Or from starting the takeoff roll? Perhaps from wheels-up? At a lot of airports, the definition selected can make a difference of well over a mile.*

*Yeah, I know the FAA isn't interested in the pedantic interpretations.

** And I see now that RussR already brought this into the discussion.
 
RussR said:
I remember discussion where the airports were so close to 50 NM apart, people started arguing that measuring between airports was shorting them distance, and they should measure between runways, or takeoff and landing locations on the runway even.
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That's where I say, if you are splitting hairs and going to need a Supreme Court decision to put it to bed, just find another airport. Flying another 10 miles (20 roundtrip) at 100 kts is just .2 more time. Even at $200 an hour, that's $40. If $40 is going to make or break your flight training budget, I hate to break it to you, this may not be the career or hobby for you.
 
midwestpa24 said:
That's where I say, if you are splitting hairs and going to need a Supreme Court decision to put it to bed, just find another airport. Flying another 10 miles (20 roundtrip) at 100 kts is just .2 more time. Even at $200 an hour, that's $40. If $40 is going to make or break your flight training budget, I hate to break it to you, this may not be the career or hobby for you.
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When I met a DPE for my instrument rating, I had something like 600 hours cross country, 900 TT. He didn't even bother checking a single distance for a single cross country.
 
Country Flier said:
When I met a DPE for my instrument rating, I had something like 600 hours cross country, 900 TT. He didn't even bother checking a single distance for a single cross country.
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Think about how long that would’ve taken.
 
Country Flier said:
When I met a DPE for my instrument rating, I had something like 600 hours cross country, 900 TT. He didn't even bother checking a single distance for a single cross country.
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And then there's that of course. Thinking back that was probably true for most of my check-rides. The recommending instructor is certifying you met all the requirements for the check-ride in their endorsement, although the DPE is free to double check their work. I think I had a DPE ask me to show him which XC in my logbook met XYZ requirement, just as a cursory review. I can't say I've ever had a really in depth review of my entire logbook. At this point it would be difficult, as I'm not sure which drawer my paper log book resides in, I've gone 100% MyFlightBook in recent years.
 
RyanB said:
Think about how long that would’ve taken.
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I always went into checkrides with the requirements tagged for easy reference. Never took more than a coupl’a seconds to find whatever they asked about.
 
The DPE looked at my IACRA totals, asked to see my logbook and looked through a few pages in the back (of what was filled out), checked for endorsements and handed it back to me. He didn't ask about a single flight. This was true for both Instrument and Commercial.

To be fair, I had over 100 hours of cross country time when I went for my IR. And I had completed all the Commercial cross country requirements on a single page just before I went for the intensive to finish up.

John
 
PPC1052 said:
Might be better than the alternative. I had a client come to me after discovering that his commercial cross country wasn't long enough after his certificate was issued. He was worried it might be discovered when he went to apply for his ATP, and/or at some later inopportune time.
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Yep ... it must be difficult for them to sleep at night. I've often wondered how something like that shakes out. Obviously he should have known, certainly the instructor should have caught it, and lastly the examiner is there to make sure all is correct before the ticket is given.

If I can ask, how was this corrected (if it was)?
 
when they look @ your logbook and ask “where is this airport - I don’t recognize it?” - and its several states away, it shortens that conversation.
 
For my commercial, I figured I'd amuse myself and maybe others by picking my longest single day XC I had done that would meet the requirements - 1029nm with 3 landings (KRAS-1T8-KJLN-KDPA). As the DPE was checking my logbook in between mumbles of "where's this airport again" he get's to the 2nd leg and says - "oh yeah, that's long enough".
 
Daleandee said:
Yep ... it must be difficult for them to sleep at night. I've often wondered how something like that shakes out. Obviously he should have known, certainly the instructor should have caught it, and lastly the examiner is there to make sure all is correct before the ticket is given.

If I can ask, how was this corrected (if it was)?
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We went to the FAA (anonymously at first), confessed, and they issued a letter to his file that the mistake had been counseled and they blessed his certificate. Tbey also reached out to the CFI and DPE. I thought they might make him re do the test, but it was easier for them just to issue the letter. He had already had a subsequent cross country flight that met the requirements.
 
PPC1052 said:
We went to the FAA (anonymously at first), confessed, and they issued a letter to his file that the mistake had been counseled and they blessed his certificate. Tbey also reached out to the CFI and DPE. I thought they might make him re do the test, but it was easier for them just to issue the letter. He had already had a subsequent cross country flight that met the requirements.
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I like happy endings! :)
 
RyanB said:
Think about how long that would’ve taken.
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The same amount of time as any other applicant. They only have to count up cross country flights greater than 50 miles until they establish the requirements for the certificate or rating.

of course, technically the examiner is signing his name to the fact that all of the numbers you put on the 8710 are accurate, and it takes longer to go through a 600-hour logbook line by line than a 250-hour logbook, but…
 
MauleSkinner said:
of course, technically the examiner is signing his name to the fact that all of the numbers you put on the 8710 are accurate, and it takes longer to go through a 600-hour logbook line by line than a 250-hour logbook, but…
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Ar you sure that's correct? Reading the blocks on the back of the 8710-1 where the examiner signs, none of them say that the DPE is certifying that the times on the front are correct. The closest simply says the DPE is verifying the applicant meets the requirements.

It's always been my understanding that as long as you put down the minimum times required for the rating, that's all that's needed.

I know that I have, on occasion, just left the times blank for certificates or ratings that didn't require any minimum times (such as CFI renewal), so they are by definition not correct if they're blank.

Obviously, the DPE has to be willing to accept whatever you put down, and I've seen some that are really meticulous about verifying times on there that ultimately don't matter for the purpose of whatever rating they're pursuing. Drives me crazy, especially since recently I've been doing a lot of multiengine add-on ratings, where there are no time requirements at all except the 3 hours checkride prep. Many of my clients are not career pilots and come to me with pretty shoddily kept logbooks where they didn't bother totaling times up, didn't track certain categories, etc, for years. None of that really matters for an add-on rating, but some DPEs will spend significant time questioning the number of night takeoffs as PIC or some other irrelevant figure.
 
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RussR said:
Ar you sure that's correct? Reading the blocks on the back of the 8710-1 where the examiner signs, none of them say that the DPE is certifying that the times on the front are correct. The closest simply says the DPE is verifying the applicant meets the requirements.

It's always been my understanding that as long as you put down the minimum times required for the rating, that's all that's needed.

I know that I have, on occasion, just left the times blank for certificates or ratings that didn't require any minimum times (such as CFI renewal), so they are by definition not correct if they're blank.

Obviously, the DPE has to accept whatever you put down, and I've seen some that are really meticulous about verifying times on there that ultimately don't matter for the purpose of whatever rating they're pursuing. Drives me crazy, especially since recently I've been doing a lot of multiengine add-on ratings, where there are no time requirements at all except the 3 hours checkride prep. Many of my clients are not career pilots and come to me with pretty shoddily kept logbooks where they didn't bother totaling times up, didn't track certain categories, etc, for years. None of that really matters for an add-on rating, but some DPEs will spend significant time questioning the number of night takeoffs as PIC or some other irrelevant figure.
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The last version of the story that I got from the FAA at our renewal course was that a previous 8710 with times on it can substitute for that portion of the pilot’s logbooks because it was verified by an examiner. You’d have to dig deeper than I’m willing into the 8900 documentation to find actual policy.

Yes, they only need to put as much time as is required by the regs for the certificate or rating on the form. In fact,I don’t allow pilots to fill in times for just a type rating, because, again, it’s been hammered in that we’re verifying all of those times.

I disagree that “blank” is by definition incorrect, however. It is simply, by definition, not reported.
 
I love going places, especially new places. My PPL cross country was 4 legs, the shortest of which was 137 n.m.
 
Best practice is to go to new airports on later cross countries to learn how to pick them out of clutter.
 
Remember folks, the FAA requirements are the bare minimum requirements. As an aviator, you should be striving for better than just a passing grade. When the fecal matter hits the rotary ventilation device, you'll be glad you went above and beyond.

I realize Avgas ain't cheap these days, but once you're at cruise it's negligible and the extra cruise time will ultimately save you money as it gives you time to explore and refine your skills.

I've always rolled my x-cty trips into productive things for me. Either getting breakfast/lunch, meeting friends in another city, travel for work. Just because it's a "training" flight doesn't mean you can't make it useful. Be careful of get-there-itis, but otherwise go for it.
 
I just went camping yesterday. Total flight was 375 miles according to ForeFlight, but I flew the scenic route. Landed at 5 strips before I set up camp, burned a total of 41 gallons of fuel. Even leaned as much as I was, it’s only 4 or so hours of flying.
So, stay in the air a bit longer and get the requirements met, an extra half our each way ends up adding, yep, just an hour. If you can spare that hour, then maybe a commercial ticket is not for you. Last I checked, employers want people with some flight time!
 
midwestpa24 said:
That's what has me shaking my head. At least once a week it seems there is a thread of someone trying to find the way to fulfill some required cross country in the absolute shortest, cheapest, way possible.
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What has me shaking my head is the people reading something that isn’t there. I simply said it’s a little frustrating have two airports exactly 49 NM away when you need 50.1 NM for them to count as XC time for ratings. That’s it. I didn’t say anything about it being unfair, I didn’t complain about the examiner (exactly the opposite, in fact), I didn’t say anything about wanting to do “the bare minimum”. That part doesn’t even make sense. Since when is meeting a requirement a bad thing? I simply said it’s frustrating to have two nearby airports that just barely don’t meet a requirement. That’s it.

But I guess some people need to get out their soapboxes.
 
I just heard a DPE friend say that a student showed up for a checkride today with a 96 mile point to point cross country as the long cross country. With the explanation being that she didn’t fly a straight line so it was actually over 100 miles.
She didn’t get to do the ride.
 
Wagondriver said:
I just heard a DPE friend say that a student showed up for a checkride today with a 96 mile point to point cross country as the long cross country. With the explanation being that she didn’t fly a straight line so it was actually over 100 miles.
She didn’t get to do the ride.
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Instructors like hers should be beaten about the head and neck.
 
Missing the mark by a few tenths of a mile, or even four miles would not negate the intended learning for the student pilot in my opinion, but I can understand the DPE’s reluctance to accept that. I would have sent her back home too. Her CFI needs to pay more attention. Her NAV log must not have been checked very closely.
 
somorris said:
Missing the mark by a few tenths of a mile, or even four miles would not negate the intended learning for the student pilot in my opinion, but I can understand the DPE’s reluctance to accept that. I would have sent her back home too. Her CFI needs to pay more attention. Her NAV log must not have been checked very closely.
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Yeah, it's not about the 4 miles, it's about the inability to follow what is actually a pretty clearly written regulation, when you have tons of time and an instructor to help you do it.
 
Salty said:
it's about the inability to follow what is actually a pretty clearly written regulation,
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Yep ...

A bunch of years ago (before ADS-B required) my plane was sans transponder. I called a CFI about a flight review and he agreed. I asked if we could meet at an airport close to his as he was based at a location just inside the mode C veil. He suggested I stay below 1200' so they wouldn't see me sneak in. I guess that was my first test as I mentioned that I couldn't/wouldn't do that.

He laughed and said, "OK .. drive up, we'll use my plane."
 
the inference is there are people who only talk about flying, and people who fly. Talking about it isn’t the same as doing it.
 
I love to travel in the plane, and several or my early cross country flights turned into fun trips. That was enabled (and encouraged) by my instructor. We flew together to Chicago Meigs a couple of times, and my official IFR cross-country turned into an overnight trip where we visited the Air Force Museum in Dayton, OH and then spent the night in Cincinnati where a friend of mine hosted us. It was never about the shortest possible distance; it was about having fun and learning something valuable. It was very helpful for being comfortable on my own cross country flights later. Experiencing different FBOs, knowing how to use the different kinds of terminals at the self-serve fuel pumps, learning how to properly secure the plane in different weather conditions - all the things you can learn on long cross-country flights.

So go pick a nice destination, allow some time to spend there, and have some fun!

- Martin
 
Honestly, my biggest concern on my cross country wasn't the mileage but insuring I could find the destination airports. The VOR was to be used as a backup for pilotage and your calculation of the wind correction angle.
 
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