Crash at Reagan National Airport, DC. Small aircraft down in the Potomac.

How long between hiring and actually acting as a controller? I honestly don’t know.
Acting as a controller can vary a lot depending on previous experience and complexity of facility. I have never seen it, and I’ve seen a lot, be more than a year. Now becoming an FPL, full performance level, can be long time, like more than 3 years at Centers.
 
I had an up close encounter Friday at about 1445 ~E/NE of Outlaw Field with a flight of two Blackhawks. They weren't squawking ADSB as far as I can tell and I didn't see them with ADSB/IN or on ADS-B Exchange when reviewing my flight

I'm confident they would have been talking with Ft Campbell Approach and I have ADSB out. Why they were allowed to come so close to me is a mystery. I made what I call an evasive maneuver to avoid a very close encounter or worse.

Of course I thought of this incident in DC where the chopper apparently wasn't squawking ADSB either.
A lot of times they don't use Campbell Approach and utilize the Campbell route structure for recovery into the KHOP. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of Army helo traffic on ADS-B. You're better off monitoring or talking to Tower and/or Approach.

Be safe out there, and see ya in the AO!
 
….. I wouldn't expect to see a lot of Army helo traffic on ADS-B. You're better off monitoring or talking to Tower and/or Approach.
Be safe out there, and see ya in the AO!
Why is that ? Is it because of some kind of policy ( obviously we are not talking here warzone deployments) or just never got around installing ADS-B on their helos ?
 
This profession will be a prime candidate for AI taking over … practically tailor made for this sort of repetitive but “ never have a bad day and never make a mistake” workflow.
LMAO! This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of two topics. What we call AI today is more A than I. They're built on LLM and would be terrible for any type of creative role requiring dynamic, outside-the-box thinking like ATC has to do often.

Obligatory XKCD: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/machine_learning_2x.png
 
LMAO! This shows a fundamental lack of understanding of two topics. What we call AI today is more A than I. They're built on LLM and would be terrible for any type of creative role requiring dynamic, outside-the-box thinking like ATC has to do often.

Obligatory XKCD: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/machine_learning_2x.png
Really ?
We are build on LLM like information acquisition and retrieval too and 99% of what we do is recalling and applying existing (or parallel ) patterns that we have seen before ( it is generally referred to as being experienced and “ having seen it all”)
You are overestimating human creativity as very few people engage in truly “outside of the box” thinking and come up with completely new stuff and these that actually do we tend to refer to as geniuses - everything’s else is just recalling and applying patterns.
 
Really ?
We are build on LLM like information acquisition and retrieval too and 99% of what we do is recalling and applying existing (or parallel ) patterns that we have seen before ( it is generally referred to as being experienced and “ having seen it all”)
You are overestimating human creativity as very few people engage in truly “outside of the box” thinking and come up with completely new stuff and these that actually do we tend to refer to as geniuses - everything’s else is just recalling and applying patterns.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Except for applying it to ATC. I'll let them speak for themselves, but I don't imagine much of even the "mundane" things they do other than maybe issuing IFR clearances are always the same. Between weather, stupid pilot tricks, dynamic traffic levels, etc. I can't imagine any AI tech we currently have handling that very well unless we move to a point where there's no part 91 traffic and everything is HEAVILY metered.
 
Start with the JO7110.65AA and associated notices. The pdf is 794 pages.

Then you have to memorize the airspace over which you will have control. All navaids, airway radials, procedures, etc.

Then you have the applicable letters of agreement, coordination protocols specific to your airspace, etc.

Then you need experience in evaluating the traffic situation, formulating a plan, and implementing it. That takes a lot of practice.

It takes several years from hire to reaching full qualification at your facility. Washout rates are high.
I live near KLEX in Lexington Ky. I'm acquainted with one of the controllers there. After the take-off accident several years ago leading to a fatal crash of an airliner, I saw firsthand the devastating effects such an accident has on the ATC community. Our church actually implemented a 2+ years free counseling program for any who wanted it, and many availed themselves of it. But obviously for some people, that kind of heartbreak is the end of their career in ATC. these folks not only need to be smart, resourceful, and cool under fire, they also need the emotional reserves and support in dealing with potential tragedy that might meet them on any given day at work.
 
Why is that ? Is it because of some kind of policy ( obviously we are not talking here warzone deployments) or just never got around installing ADS-B on their helos ?
I will say that Operations Security (OPSEC) plays large part of it. Some might argue the legality or necessity of it, but those decisions are made far above our level. Some of these assets are highly specialized as are the precious cargo they carry, and it has been determined that they should not be able to be tracked.
 
Give me enough data I can know Unit readiness…OR rates…Unit capabilities, which plenty of hostile actors would love to have. We already have plenty of hostiles logging take offs and landings all over the world. Don’t plan on any changes anytime soon…but I could make a case for VIP units…
 
Give me enough data I can know Unit readiness…OR rates…Unit capabilities, which plenty of hostile actors would love to have. We already have plenty of hostiles logging take offs and landings all over the world. Don’t plan on any changes anytime soon…but I could make a case for VIP units…
Yeah, certainly there is no acute shortage of 70+ year olds VIPs waiting in the wings ready to assume the incredible burden of being a public servant in case something happens to the current one …
 
The authority for a blanket masking of movements by removing the safety benefits of ADS-B should be questioned.
Agree. There is no reason to go dark. The Senators/etc just don't want us to know that the PATs are a taxi ride for them. Training......lol.

If the real deal was happening, it will be like the fall of Saigon, so not enough seats.
 
Yeah, certainly there is no acute shortage of 70+ year olds VIPs waiting in the wings ready to assume the incredible burden of being a public servant in case something happens to the current one …
Do you want our enemies choosing who serves us?
 
We should be starting to work our way out of that hole at this point. A lot of the people who started careers after the PATCO strike are retirement age now, so that is really hurting the system too. Losing a pretty big group of the most experienced people.
PATCO replacements are all long gone. ATC is forced retirement at age 56. It is a cognitively heavy job.

PATCO-replacement retirements were what started the understaffing dang near 20 years ago. Not only have we not recovered, the second post-PATCO generation is starting to become eligible to retire... And the way ATC seems to be these days (woefully understaffed, 6 day weeks, hard to get vacation, etc) is not going to lead those folks to stick around until they're 56.
What’s the latest with the NTSB on this? Have they done a press conference since the one they did a couple days after where they said they couldn’t comment on altitude until they learned more about altitude readouts on the Tower’s Radar?
I think they have, since additional facts have come out, but they didn't put video up.
This profession will be a prime candidate for AI taking over … practically tailor made for this sort of repetitive but “ never have a bad day and never make a mistake” workflow.
"AI" as we know it today is pretty much just for written words and images, and it doesn't "know" anything. It merely strings together words that have the highest probability of occurring after one another.

It also requires an incredible amount of data. Unless someone's been saving the "tapes" for the past few decades, there's probably not much in the way of training data available. Feed it everything that exists now, and there's probably still enough nuance and little exceptions to everything that it would not work well enough for a LONG time.

If they try to make AI take over ATC I'm gonna go flying and ask for contact approaches, cruise clearances, etc until it crashes.
I will say that Operations Security (OPSEC) plays large part of it. Some might argue the legality or necessity of it, but those decisions are made far above our level. Some of these assets are highly specialized as are the precious cargo they carry, and it has been determined that they should not be able to be tracked.
I'm sorry, but if Air Force One with POTUS aboard can squawk ADS-B, so can a random helicopter on a training flight.
Do you want our enemies choosing who serves us?
Do you think they're not already heavily influencing our elections?
 
I have no direct experience with this subject but it does sound like there are some deep inefficiencies built into the system.
I would think this is the kind of job that does not require an extensive body of knowledge ( how many relevant rules and regulations are there after all ) and is more the type of job that relies on natural ability to think and act calmly and quickly - in other words you will either make a good ATC or you wont and which is which should be apparent rather than quickly.
Of course, as I mentioned I have no direct experience with the subject so I may be completely off here …
You are not off here. There are certain abilities that are required. Can you evaluate things in motion. Can you see where things are ‘now’ and mentally picture where the will be a minute from now. Can it be taught? Only if the ability already exists.
 
I think that's where the DEI factor comes in. In the long past, if one didn't qualify on position after a fixed period of time, they were let go. Now it's train until the trainee can meet minimum standards, no time limit. Need an active ATC'er to weigh in on that.
Not active but I can weigh in. There was the ‘train to succeed program’ that came about in the era after the strike. Congress was upset about the ‘failure rate’ of new hires reaching certification. The ‘wash out’ rate was to high. Ergo, train them until they can. So numerous days, weeks, months and years, yes years, were spent on persons who didn’t have the inborn skills to separate two flys with a screen door, much less the cheeks of their azz with a crow bar.
 
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