CPL requirements at a 141 school

[Gordon Freeman]

So, I'm trying to get a better mental picture of the requirements for a CPL through a141 school. I'm having a hard time finding the specifics online, as most resources mention part 61 requirements. Other resources still mention the 250-nm XC flight as a requirement, when I believe this is no longer the case since FAA made some changes in 2018.

I currently have 192 hours total time, and 118 hours of dual instruction received, and am instrument rated.

I know the various hour requirements are just minimums, but I'd still like a better mental picture of the cost and time this will involve.

Any input would be greatly appreciated

 

[RussR]

Part 141, Appendix D has that information.

"120 hours of training if the course is for an airplane or powered-lift rating."

"Each approved course must include at least the following flight training:

(1) For an airplane single-engine course: 55 hours of flight training from a certificated flight instructor on the approved areas of operation listed in paragraph (d)(1) of this section that includes at least -"

(I edited out the specific training times)

Then later it talks about the solo requirements, which is 10 hours, including the following among other things:
"One cross-country flight, if the training is being performed in a State other than Hawaii, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of the flight consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles;"

So the training program is 120 hours. 55 of dual training, 10 of solo, and then the remainder can be either. You can possibly get credit for up to 25% of that time based on your previous time.

As you can see, Part 141 Commercial programs aren't designed for anyone with any significant amount of "other" flying. They're intended for the person who did their Private, then their Instrument right after, and are moving right into Commercial training with no real flying in there. That's why the 120 hour training requirement.

As a pilot with some experience, you're probably far better off doing this under Part 61. If you have a Part 141 school in mind that you want to do it at, they may still be willing to train you under Part 61. I used to do this all the time when I worked at a small Part 141 school.

 

[Gordon Freeman]

Thanks Russ,
I see. So 55 hours of flight training? Yeesh, this is more than my PPL. I see your point about part 141 vs. 61 there. 61 might indeed be better for me.

For part 61, the total time required is 250hrs. I'm assuming I can start my training via part 61 at around 210-220 hrs, and by the time I'm done with training I'll be at 250? Or does it mean I need 250 to start training? Logic tells me it's the former.

Thanks for bearing with me. FAA regs are full of technicalities!

 

[Clip4]

Keep in mind under Part 61 there is a 20 hour instructional requirement + you need 5 hours night with 10 takeoffs / landings airport with control tower and a solo XC of 300nm total distance with one point 250 nm from the point of departure.

Also an instrument rating does not automatically exempt you from the 10 hours instrument training. You should review your logbook now with a CFI to determine you have logged 10 hours using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems.

 

[RussR]

Thanks Russ,
I see. So 55 hours of flight training? Yeesh, this is more than my PPL. I see your point about part 141 vs. 61 there. 61 might indeed be better for me.

For part 61, the total time required is 250hrs. I'm assuming I can start my training via part 61 at around 210-220 hrs, and by the time I'm done with training I'll be at 250? Or does it mean I need 250 to start training? Logic tells me it's the former.

Thanks for bearing with me. FAA regs are full of technicalities!

The minimum-time Part 141 student will have 35 hours for the Private, 35 hours for the Instrument, and 120 hours for the Commercial, for a total of 190 hours. Yes, a Part 141 student could get their Commercial at 190 hours and then become a CFI by 215. And, never have actually flown anywhere for any purpose other than training. Yeah.

You are correct. You must have 250 hours prior to taking your checkride. It doesn't mean you have to wait until 210-220 hours to start training, you could start now. As long as you hit 250 before your checkride, you're okay.

Commercial training as far as the maneuvers go doesn't really take that long. You could do it in a long weekend if everything worked out right. The 2 required dual XC's I usually do in one flight. The solo requirements are what take some people some time to meet.

 

[RussR]

Keep in mind an instrument rating does not automatically exempt you from the 10 hours instrument training. You should also review your logbook now with a CFI to determine you have logged 10 hours using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems.

And so there's no question, annotate "meets 61.129" or similar on each line.

 

[flyingron]

The big issue is that the school doesn't have to credit any of your existing time garnered outside of their program towards their training (and in fact, can't credit more than half). So if you've flown off a lot of the commercial requirements outside a 141 school, it might behoove you to complete it under the straight-61 rules. Best to take your log book to the school and ask just what you'd have to do to take the ride in their program.

 

[Clip4]

The big issue is that the school doesn't have to credit any of your existing time garnered outside of their program towards their training (and in fact, can't credit more than half). So if you've flown off a lot of the commercial requirements outside a 141 school, it might behoove you to complete it under the straight-61 rules. Best to take your log book to the school and ask just what you'd have to do to take the ride in their program.

Credit may be given after an assessment. For previous Part 61 training the maximum credit is 25%. It’s 50% for a 141 to 141 transfer.

 

[flyingron]

Credit may be given after an assessment. For previous Part 61 training the maximum credit is 25%. It’s 50% for a 141 to 141 transfer.

Yep, that's consistent with what I said.

 

[Gordon Freeman]

Ok, some good points here. Thanks everyone.

Re: 10hrs instrument training: Understood. I need to fly under the hood in the coming months anyway to keep my instrument currency, so this will kill two birds with one stone.

Re: Current school crediting hours: Luckily, I've been renting an SR-20 from a local 141 flight school, so I don't think crediting my hours of rental with them for the applicable categories will be a big issue. I do have to ask if they'd be okay training me under 61. Big if.

Re: You must have 250 hours prior to taking your checkride: Thank you for confirming this. In the last 6 months I've averaged 70 hours, so I'm fairly confident I'll be at 250 by spring time.

I will call my rental/flight school and see if they'd be open to doing my CPL training under 61.

All in all, the cross country flights are a bit lengthy. Am I able to drop my kids off at the grandparents' en route or are all the XCs strictly solo?

 

[RussR]

All in all, the cross country flights are a bit lengthy. Am I able to drop my kids off at the grandparents' en route or are all the XCs strictly solo?

Instead of being (good-naturedly) snarky, I will refer you to 61.51d.

Okay, I actually need to say a little more. Because you certainly COULD drop your kids off. But that part of the flight would not count for the solo XC requirement. If the remainder still does, you're good. I'd put it on two separate lines in your logbook just to reduce questions.

Remember, the only solo XC requirement is for the 250nm XC. It doesn't have to be round-trip. I met the requirement when I bought a plane and flew it home. It just needs to be to somewhere 250 nm away, more than 300 nm total, and landings at 3 airports.

Also, your wording of "the cross country flights" (plural) makes me want to clarify something else. In 61.129, all the requirements in 61.129a(3) are TRAINING. Meaning "with a CFI". All the requirements in 61.129a(4) are SOLO. Meaning no instructor, nor anybody else on board.

The 2-hr day and night XC flights are in (3), so they are with a CFI. The only required solo XC is the long one.

I typically do the 2-hr day and night dual XC flights in the same trip - fly somewhere >100nm and 2 hrs away for dinner, eat as the sun sets, fly back at night.

To philosophize a bit, I feel the whole intent of the 250-nm XC trip is just to make sure you've actually flown somewhere other than the local training area, if you're about to start flying for pay. I've seen countless pilots who are working on their Commercial certificates who have been in training the whole time and haven't ever really dealt with a longer flight - weather, airspace, FBOs, decision-making, whatever. And I suppose the reason it's solo is just to have some kind of standard, otherwise you could bring along your airline pilot brother who does everything and makes all the decisions for you.

 

[BladeSlap]

That’s a ton of dual

 

[Clip4]

Ok, some good points here. Thanks everyone.

Re: 10hrs instrument training: Understood. I need to fly under the hood in the coming months anyway to keep my instrument currency, so this will kill two birds with one stone.

Re: Current school crediting hours: Luckily, I've been renting an SR-20 from a local 141 flight school, so I don't think crediting my hours of rental with them for the applicable categories will be a big issue. I do have to ask if they'd be okay training me under 61. Big if.

Re: You must have 250 hours prior to taking your checkride: Thank you for confirming this. In the last 6 months I've averaged 70 hours, so I'm fairly confident I'll be at 250 by spring time.

I will call my rental/flight school and see if they'd be open to doing my CPL training under 61.

All in all, the cross country flights are a bit lengthy. Am I able to drop my kids off at the grandparents' en route or are all the XCs strictly solo?

Any hours that were endorsed in your logbook as training in the SR22 would count toward the 10 hours training in a TAA aircraft.

 

[Gordon Freeman]

I spoke to my CFI, who trained me for my PPL and IR. He also advised I do my CPL under part 61. Since I'm at 192 hours, he recommended I just keep flying, and somewhere in between squeeze in that long solo XC flight-250nm. He says I just need that flight in my logbook. It doesn't have to be endorsed by a CFI nor flown with a CFI (it's a solo flight). He said that once I'm at 230hrs, I should do the daytime and night time XC flight with CFI, and start practicing commercial manuvers so that they're fresh in my head, right before my checkride (250hrs). In the meantime, he advised me to keep studying ground on my own and take the written once I feel ready.

Sound advice, and sounds like minimal dual-instruction time too, which is always good for the wallet.