COVID testing X3

denverpilot said:
The short answer is: You aren’t “essential.”

LOL. Sorry us schlubs just don’t rate. Ha.

Even most “essentials” don’t qualify without symptoms other than a chosen few, like ATC.

Karen paid for one of hers. As a nurse. Working 24 hours after the US figured out it was here.

Makes it pretty clear where we fit in the true needs of society, doesn’t it? Haha.

Bunch of people learned they’re quite expendable this year. Probably bothers some of them, too. :)
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I’ve known for a long time that I’m far from ‘essential’. :rofl:
 
denverpilot said:
Can you change your flight to land somewhere outside the silly rule and then just drive a rental car in? LOL.
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Don't count on that. Cuomo has browbeaten the neighboring states into doing similar restrictive stuff. They're supposed to meet this weekend (the group of 8 states) to discuss tighter restrictions.

I was going to take advantage of the $20 fare sale on Acela from DC to NYC that was offered this week, but the hassle of dealing with NY made that a non-starter for me.
 
I had Covid, back in Oct, never got tested. I had vacation time, then some sick time off work. I don’t see what testing really does for a person?
I’d call my case ‘medium+’ severity. It took a full two weeks plus to get over it. I’m now a full up round, went flying already, deer hunting in IL next weekend.


Then you have the Elon Musk test experience, 2 positive, 2 negative, all the same day.
 
sourdough44 said:
I had Covid, back in Oct, never got tested. I had vacation time, then some sick time off work. I don’t see what testing really does for a person?...
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For people who have the virus without symptoms and would prefer not to infect others, It might help them avoid passing it on.
 
Palmpilot said:
For people who have the virus without symptoms and would prefer not to infect others, It might help them avoid passing it on.
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Assuming asymptomatic transmission of active disease, which isn't established.
 
If one has the Rona, they can still isolate & quarantine, without ever taking the test. I just never saw where getting a positive test leads to great treatment & medications, seems to only hamper you.
 
sourdough44 said:
If one has the Rona, they can still isolate & quarantine, without ever taking the test. I just never saw where getting a positive test leads to great treatment & medications, seems to only hamper you.
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Agree!
 
sourdough44 said:
If one has the Rona, they can still isolate & quarantine, without ever taking the test. I just never saw where getting a positive test leads to great treatment & medications, seems to only hamper you.
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I can think of one exception. Naming them may cause thread closure. Only mentioned as the exception which proves the rule.
 
sourdough44 said:
If one has the Rona, they can still isolate & quarantine, without ever taking the test. I just never saw where getting a positive test leads to great treatment & medications, seems to only hamper you.
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How exactly would one know one has contracted Covid if they haven't been tested? Corona symptoms aren't specific enough to unequivocally diagnose, self- or otherwise, that you actually have it and not some other infection with the same symptoms. You can't know whether or not you have or have had it without getting tested...at least as I understand. Whether or not that information is valuable depends upon how you are living your life and who you will be around. If you keep to yourself primarily, aren't out in public, and/or maintain social distance and/or mask up, then it would seem that getting tested is of little or no value. If, on the other hand, you are in areas where you may have been exposed AND are planning on being around elderly, infirm, or otherwise at-risk people, getting tests before hand would seem to be the only thoughtful thing to do.
 
MuseChaser said:
How exactly would one know one has contracted Covid if they haven't been tested? Corona symptoms aren't specific enough to unequivocally diagnose, self- or otherwise, that you actually have it and not some other infection with the same symptoms. You can't know whether or not you have or have had it without getting tested...at least as I understand.
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true. We are beside ourselves in fear over something we can’t even tell we have. Makes thinking people think.
 
sourdough44 said:
If one has the Rona, they can still isolate & quarantine, without ever taking the test. I just never saw where getting a positive test leads to great treatment & medications, seems to only hamper you.
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If they're infected without showing symptoms yet and haven't taken the test, how would they know that there is a need for them to quarantine?
 
I'm not getting tested unless some company policy mandates it or I am actually ill. False positives seem like a great way to take an economic hit for nothing only to be hit by the real deal later.

Elon posted recently that 4 PCR taken at the same time, same machine and same nurse turned out two positives and two negatives.


I was skeptical that these would be very useful back in April... I know scientists need data but when the measuring instruments are so sloppy what the heck good is it?


Its been a good 5 to 10 years ago but I went the trauma ER feel like ass with a known raging ear infection, they took the CBC and I screwed around there for three hours before being discharged with "viral syndrome" go home, if you get worse come back... This seems to be the prescription for the COVID positives I've communicated with.


Sadly still a ton of people not doing well with this. I know several people that got Westnile and were never the same after.
 
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Let’s say we theoretically test everyone. It’s only a snapshot in time, a day or two later, we start all over again.
 
Makes me wonder if you get a positive result, is that going to have to be noted on your medical the next time?
 
Larry Korona said:
Makes me wonder if you get a positive result, is that going to have to be noted on your medical the next time?
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Well it's not really a doctor visit. It's definitely not a disqualifying condition or anything the form explicitly asks about so I'd say there's nothing to report. Of course if you get admitted to a hospital or go see your doctor then that's different.

I'd honestly be really surprised if COVID became an issue as far as medical certificates go.
 
cowman said:
Well it's not really a doctor visit. It's definitely not a disqualifying condition or anything the form explicitly asks about so I'd say there's nothing to report. Of course if you get admitted to a hospital or go see your doctor then that's different.

I'd honestly be really surprised if COVID became an issue as far as medical certificates go.
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I'm not sure. IIRC the form has a question about "any other condition." That, combined with 67.113(b), 67.213(b), or 67.313(b) pretty much gives the federal air surgeon a blank check to disqualify people.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not sure. IIRC the form has a question about "any other condition." That, combined with 67.113(b), 67.213(b), or 67.313(b) pretty much gives the federal air surgeon a blank check to disqualify people.
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If you get it and recover before your next medical do you really have "a condition" though? Assuming no hospitalization and no long term symptoms IDK why you'd have anything to report or even mention.
 
cowman said:
If you get it and recover before your next medical do you really have "a condition" though? Assuming no hospitalization and no long term symptoms IDK why you'd have anything to report or even mention.
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The form asks about conditions you have had anytime in your life.

I have no idea whether it's likely or not, but the authority is there, and the FAA does have a tendency to go overboard on finding reasons to disqualify people.
 
cowman said:
I'd honestly be really surprised if COVID became an issue as far as medical certificates go.
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very common to have loss of taste & smell, some are finding that they are not recovering either for weeks or months. Your no longer have any other issues, long cured of virus, but can't taste or smell. So when then?
 
Larry Korona said:
very common to have loss of taste & smell, some are finding that they are not recovering either for weeks or months. Your no longer have any other issues, long cured of virus, but can't taste or smell. So when then?
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That is a very scary thought actually. I’ve read some people who had the virus back in March and April and still don’t have their sense of taste or smell back.
 
I was thinking about the most common scenario where someone gets tested because of an exposure and gets a positive result but never gets more than some mild cold or flu like symptoms. That's pretty much been the scenario for the few people I know who've had it.

In that case I wouldn't think it would even need to be reported unless you went to a doctor and got an official diagnosis. I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that the drive through style mass testing wouldn't count as a doctor's visit or a diagnosis on it's own so.. no requirement to report anything. Just like if you get a cold or flu and just recover at home without seeing a doctor- we don't report that either do we?

Obviously we have to put down visits to the doctor and hospitalization... and they could add "have you tested positive for COVID-19" to the form in the future. I'm just thinking as things stand now if you get tested and have a complete recovery I don't think you have to report it so why volunteer information for the FAA to badger you with?

I'm not a doctor, lawyer, or FAA expert so I could be entirely wrong this is just what I think based on what I understand about the rules/process.
 
cowman said:
I was thinking about the most common scenario where someone gets tested because of an exposure and gets a positive result but never gets more than some mild cold or flu like symptoms. That's pretty much been the scenario for the few people I know who've had it.

In that case I wouldn't think it would even need to be reported unless you went to a doctor and got an official diagnosis. I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that the drive through style mass testing wouldn't count as a doctor's visit or a diagnosis on it's own so.. no requirement to report anything. Just like if you get a cold or flu and just recover at home without seeing a doctor- we don't report that either do we?

Obviously we have to put down visits to the doctor and hospitalization... and they could add "have you tested positive for COVID-19" to the form in the future. I'm just thinking as things stand now if you get tested and have a complete recovery I don't think you have to report it so why volunteer information for the FAA to badger you with?

I'm not a doctor, lawyer, or FAA expert so I could be entirely wrong this is just what I think based on what I understand about the rules/process.
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How would you get around question 18x? Notice that it asks not only about conditions you have been diagnosed with, but also about conditions you have had without a diagnosis. It looks to me like you have to check box 18x if you know that you had the condition, and if you test positive, then you know.

I'm also not sure that a visit to a drive-through testing site would not be considered a visit to a heath professional, which requires listing in section 19 if it occurred within the last three years.

Question 18x.png


https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Content/Docs/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf (See page 40.)
 
Bob Noel said:
do you report every time you have the flu?
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If you get tested for it, and it's positive, then what do you do? COVID, flu whatever your medical issue happens to be. COVID-19 happens to be this special weird situation.
 
Bob Noel said:
do you report every time you have the flu?
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Section 10.8.1.1 Part1 of the instructions linked in my previous post includes this (in reference to section 18):

"Do not report occasional common illnesses such as colds or sore throats."​

Since the flu is an occasional common illness, I've always assumed that it fell within that exception. Whether the FAA would agree with me, I have no idea.

Of course, if you had a visit to a health professional for it within the past three years, that would be reportable in section 19.
 
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Larry Korona said:
If you get tested for it, and it's positive, then what do you do? COVID, flu whatever your medical issue happens to be. COVID-19 happens to be this special weird situation.
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It’s not. Nothing weird about it at all.

If you didn’t report every other virus you caught in your life and got over, you certainly don’t need to report this one.

If one of those other virii landed you at the Doc, you reported it. Same here.

If the sequence is: “Catch virus, self-ground, get over virus, go fly.” Nothing changed.
 
What's an occasional common illness?

I wonder if anyone at the FAA has even decided how to handle it yet. Without something from them we're all just interpreting based on our own inclinations.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. I’m starting to think that way. Get it and be done. Reinfections seem to be rare. Not so sure about the dying thang tho.
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It's not binary. My sister is an RN working in a hospital in Florida. She got infected by a coworker who came in while sick, and the hospital was providing substandard PPE. She's recovering, has no sense of smell or taste, and is now having cardiac issues, can't work and really shouldn't drive. She's likely to need surgery.

Her employer put her on a leave of absence, so she has no income and has to pay COBRA for her insurance. She's also dealing with a secondary lung issue that will take 18 months to go away if it does go away, it may not.

IMO I'd rather take precautions for the next six months and not chance what the virus might do, but you go ahead and take your chances.
 
FormerHangie said:
IMO I'd rather take precautions for the next six months and not chance what the virus might do, but you go ahead and take your chances.
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Just mathematical commentary: You’re a long way from six months left.

10M known infections, maybe... maybe 50M tested... which is super generous... more than six months... and 340M total?

You can do the simple division.

Unless infection rates are allowed to rise much more rapidly, you’re looking at years with those numbers.

Even if one of the candidate vaccines is released tomorrow and fully blessed and zero problems and 100% efficacy... (again being incredibly generous here), that’s a two year logistics chain problem start to finish.

It’s just math. The numbers could change in some material way but none have in months, other than death rate which literally fell off a mathematical cliff with no true solid explanation. None of the changes (treatments, etc) account for the rapid change in that slope downward.

Even with the little bumps “cases” are taking Getting back to the expected linear slope, the two haven’t aligned in parallel, or even come close.

So that’s good. Deaths was on track for over 2.5M ***easy*** in the US in March.

But an “end” to this thing... no numbers have yet fallen below two years, at best, since the beginning. And that’s probably generous.

Still... 10% of a population isn’t enough data to be statistically significant in a number of ways yet, and even 50M is pretty weak statistically.

My best engineer math guess says we get better controls on “cases” so we’re actually looking at al standardized number there, and we jump back on the linear diverging lines paths of both “cases” and “deaths”, which will accelerate and stabilize and we’ll take two to three years to finish it.

At least my today’s numbers.

None of which account for the already known, or future, mutations. (Spain, 40% infected aren’t the original virus strain now.)

Zero politics about whether the responses have been good or bad. Just the relatively easy linear math. Rise over run and simple division.

It’s kinda like the current worry... “Hospitals are busy in some places!”

Oh, gee, yawn... there’s a surprise. Not. Werr you expecting something better than a linear equation? LOL.

Anyway. Just commenting on the “six months”. Good luck with that. Wouldn’t put any money on that one in Vegas. Mostly because nothing in the actual numbers (flawed as they may be) indicates that.

330M to go... or whatever number one likes for herd immunity. Call it 240M maybe. 1/24 of the way there? 1/33rd? Yay ... fractions. :)
 
Im actually laying in bed right now with Covid. :) I decided a long time ago that, with three kids in 3 different schools, I was going to eventually get it no matter what precautions I took so I just stopped even worrying or thinking about it.

I had a fever Sunday morning and felt generally miserable so my wife and I got tested Monday. We both tested positive. My wife has just a mild cough and nothing else. I pretty well checked all of the symptoms boxes except loss of smell/taste and didn’t really leave my bed except to go to the bathroom until today. Feel a lot better today though.

Im relieved to just get it out of the way and hopefully have some immunity.
 
denverpilot said:
Just mathematical commentary: You’re a long way from six months left.

10M known infections, maybe... maybe 50M tested... which is super generous... more than six months... and 340M total?

You can do the simple division.

Unless infection rates are allowed to rise much more rapidly, you’re looking at years with those numbers.

Even if one of the candidate vaccines is released tomorrow and fully blessed and zero problems and 100% efficacy... (again being incredibly generous here), that’s a two year logistics chain problem start to finish.

It’s just math. The numbers could change in some material way but none have in months, other than death rate which literally fell off a mathematical cliff with no true solid explanation. None of the changes (treatments, etc) account for the rapid change in that slope downward.

Even with the little bumps “cases” are taking Getting back to the expected linear slope, the two haven’t aligned in parallel, or even come close.

So that’s good. Deaths was on track for over 2.5M ***easy*** in the US in March.

But an “end” to this thing... no numbers have yet fallen below two years, at best, since the beginning. And that’s probably generous.

Still... 10% of a population isn’t enough data to be statistically significant in a number of ways yet, and even 50M is pretty weak statistically.

My best engineer math guess says we get better controls on “cases” so we’re actually looking at al standardized number there, and we jump back on the linear diverging lines paths of both “cases” and “deaths”, which will accelerate and stabilize and we’ll take two to three years to finish it.

At least my today’s numbers.

None of which account for the already known, or future, mutations. (Spain, 40% infected aren’t the original virus strain now.)

Zero politics about whether the responses have been good or bad. Just the relatively easy linear math. Rise over run and simple division.

It’s kinda like the current worry... “Hospitals are busy in some places!”

Oh, gee, yawn... there’s a surprise. Not. Werr you expecting something better than a linear equation? LOL.

Anyway. Just commenting on the “six months”. Good luck with that. Wouldn’t put any money on that one in Vegas. Mostly because nothing in the actual numbers (flawed as they may be) indicates that.

330M to go... or whatever number one likes for herd immunity. Call it 240M maybe. 1/24 of the way there? 1/33rd? Yay ... fractions. :)
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Per the CDC Actual cases are 6 to 11 times identified cases. (Mean ratio of estimated infections to reported case counts, Overall (range)§, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html)

So 11M identified cases means there are likely somewhere around 66 to 121M actual cases(20 to 38% of the US population of 320M)

Cases are doubling roughly every two months(https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-us-maps-and-cases/) so 40 to 76% by the end of JAN, worst case (if the doubling rate stays constant and the low CDC multiplier is correct at 6x) the 60% herd immunity for a virus with an Ro of 2.5 threshold will be met in FEB/MAR.
 
bdtaz said:
Per the CDC Actual cases are 6 to 11 times identified cases. (Mean ratio of estimated infections to reported case counts, Overall (range)§, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html)

So 11M identified cases means there are likely somewhere around 66 to 121M actual cases(20 to 38% of the US population of 320M)

Cases are doubling roughly every two months(https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-us-maps-and-cases/) so 40 to 76% by the end of JAN, worst case (if the doubling rate stays constant and the low CDC multiplier is correct at 6x) the 60% herd immunity for a virus with an Ro of 2.5 threshold will be met in FEB/MAR.
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Like I said I used real numbers. Their estimate is nice but it’s as easily a fantasy as reality.

They’ve been multiple orders of magnitude wrong before. More than once, too.

Would be nice if they were right, not arguing that.
 
cowman said:
What's an occasional common illness?

I wonder if anyone at the FAA has even decided how to handle it yet. Without something from them we're all just interpreting based on our own inclinations.
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Agreed. I have my opinion and others have theirs, but I don't think anyone knows what the FAA's position will be.
 
bdtaz said:
Per the CDC Actual cases are 6 to 11 times identified cases. (Mean ratio of estimated infections to reported case counts, Overall (range)§, https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html)
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The CDC planning scenarios are just that, scenarios for planning.

In Maskachusetts, the postive test results are not consistent with actual infections being that high. Here in Maskachusetts, they are still doing predominately targeted testing, so you'd expect the %positives should be higher than that for the general population.
 
denverpilot said:
Like I said I used real numbers. Their estimate is nice but it’s as easily a fantasy as reality.

They’ve been multiple orders of magnitude wrong before. More than once, too.

Would be nice if they were right, not arguing that.
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I don't know if the CDC is "right" either. On the surface, their numbers seem reasonable

Given the apparent number of asymptomatic cases, there certainly have been/are more actual cases(resulting in now immune population) than the identified cases reported. 6:1 would seem "reasonable" but this certainly is a question. The CDC range is actually up to over twenty with a mean of 11 so a range of 6 to 11 seems reasonable.

The "native" Ro of 2.5 might be off a bit but that is the range of estimates from other sources. The Herd Immunity threshold is a simple math calc from there.

The case doubling rate has varied from two to four months since JUL so likely is in that range.

Run a forward looking calc using the above(and combinations/iterations thereof) and "Q1 CY21" has always spilled out even from the first time I went through them back in AUG(I was wondering if a vaccine arriving in early 2021 would actually have an impact, seemed unlikely then, still seems unlikely now).

Now if the virus mutates so immunity is lost, everything starts again, including vaccine development.

If case growth slows for something other than approaching herd immunity, the timetable could also be off.

If a large number of the "Identified cases" are "the same case recorded more than once"....

Lots of possibilities for variation but, as they say, "Based on the best data available today...."
 
Another point of anecdotal data... Our county in NY, like many other places, is spiking right now. Although I feel great, and have been "asymptomatic" since way before this whole mess went down, I looked into getting tested just for the safety of other family members who are considering Giving Thanks with us next week. The test is available, but I have to give my cell phone, email, address, birth date, sex, race, ethnicity, occupation, employer, and employer's contact information. If the test was being given so that the government can help its citizens make good decisions, I'd be all in. However, it's now, like all "free" things (apps, whatever)... the government using the "free" test as a means to track and monitor the citizens, much like a "free" app, that means YOU are the product. No thanks. Too bad. I'd be very happy to be tested, if the government would allow me to remain untracked and simply return the results of that test to me and trust me to make my own decisions. If there was an opportunity for me to PAY for the test and maintain some semblance of privacy, I'd be overjoyed to do that. However, I will not be a subject. A couple hundred years ago, we fought for that right. To be CRYSTAL clear, I will not put others at risk. Getting tested would give a layer of comfort that might allow more interaction with others, which I would welcome. However, sadly, I guess I'll have to forego that interaction, rather than succumb to governmental invasion into privacy.

Here's our county's testing website, should you wish to verify or explore...

https://covid19.ongov.net/appointments/asymptomatic/

Ban me if necessary. This needed to be said. Some recent decisions regarding thread closure have made it crystal clear that opinions differing from opinions accepted by at least some management, no matter how maturely and thoughtfully voiced, are not welcome, and that is a shame. I love this forum, but being referred to as an "ass" and not "mature" simply because I and others disagree is .. well... immature, divisive, disrespectful, and uninclusive. All of things we've been accused of, without actually being. To be clear, I find GREAT value in this forum, and the signal to noise ratio is MUCH higher than almost any other forum I've ever participated in... not that there have been many. The number of helpful, kind, thoughtful people, mods and regular-contributors alike, GREATLY outnumbers the number of caustic individuals with little to offer. We won't all EVER look at things the same way... that's fine, expected, and even welcomed. If we did, there'd be no reason to discuss ANYTHING. However, when we disagree or see things differently, there is NO reason to label the "other side" an "ass," not "mature," or ban someone for expressing an opinion thoughtfully... or even playfully.

Yeah.. it's late... I had to install a fuel tank today in the freezing cold.... TWICE... because a @#$@# rivnut slipped out of the channel the first time and I didn't notice until I had the lines and sender hooked up and about 80 screws already in... so I'm a little grumpy, and I'm not usually grumpy. Hope to see you all soon... depending upon what "vacation" is foisted upon me. Hey.. it needed to be said.

Bless us all. Good night. Fare thee well. Go with God. Peace on Earth. Hug your friends and family. Love your neighbors. Heal. Love. Laugh.

Much Love,

Barry
 
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