Course Reversal vs Hold

[WannFly]

probably a question for my CFII, but just did a test flight and got a little surprised by what GTN had me do.

disclaimer : all under VFR, with permission from KFAR Approach and they knew what i was doing and i was cleared (i am pretty sure the controllers expect me to do dumb stuff anyway). I am not rated.

I was in the SE of KFAR and went to KOBME (IAF) to RNAV 36 to test out how the plane will fly, coupled approach. i was expecting after reaching KOBME it will do one turn in hold and then fly the rest of the approach. instead, when i punched in direct KOBME, it asked if i would like to fly the course reversal, to which i said yes and instead of doing the actual hold, it took me further south and made a teardrop entry to the approach course, i was outside of the hold area from what i can tell, wondering if there is a way to overlay my track on top of a approach chart to confirm.



Flight aware shows the track i flew, well i didnt, the AP did:



So what did i do wrong and why my expectation to do a turn in the hold turned down by GTN?

 

[chemgeek]

If you are not approaching KOBME from 086-267 you are expected to fly the course reversal to get established on the final approach course. You are not expected to take a turn in the hold. You are expected to cross KOBME twice only: once outbound and once inbound. It looks like your box flew a parallel entry to the HILPT to do the course reversal. That looks right to me, although it looks like you forced the box to fly the reversal when it was not necessary, based on your track to KOBME.

Had you approached KOBME from the south, or from one of the other IAFs, no PT would be required at all.

A gotcha in my home drome approach is that my box wants to fly the hold when it is not required. I have to delete the hold from the approach when established on a noPT route. I think it is an error in the database as it is supposed to ask me if I want to fly the reversal, or automagically figure it out based on ground track.

 

[Hang 4]

Is it the distance of the overlapping courses you are questioning? I can't tell from your track, but absent the distance question, that's a proper reversal, on the "protected" side like the hold on the plate. Do you have GP on an iPad? If so, you can look at your flight log and see the distance from KOBME and if you are within 8 NM (size of the hold).

 

[dmspilot]

You were in the straight-in area and should not have done a procedure turn. See the NoPT section in the lower left of the plan view.

 

[WannFly]

@Hang 4 , thanks for the tip on GP on iPAD, so here is the track on the approach plate.



as you can see, i am outside the protected hold.

@chemgeek
I am just testing out the GTN and AutoPilot, so yeah kinda forcing to fly it.

i guess, my question is, while studying the approach plate, where does it say i have to fly the course reversal? in real world, coming from SE, i will fly to TULOE or vectors. but purely from a theoretical perspective. I am also wondering if it is within 8 NM and just the drawing of the hold is not to scale.

Edit: ha, the turn was exactly 8 NM outbound. i was expecting the turn to be inside the hold, but looks like the Hold drawing is not to scale.

 

[WannFly]

You were in the straight-in area and should not have done a procedure turn. See the NoPT section in the lower left of the plan view.

this is for testing equipment only, with permission from the controller

 

[Hang 4]

Check the scale on the chart. (base chart, not the plate).

 

[WannFly]

Check the scale on the chart. (base chart, not the plate).

just figured that out..lol

 

[PaulS]

It did what you told it to do. It flew the course reversal then the approach. What am I missing??

 

[dmspilot]

The holding pattern icon is not a representation of the size of the hold. This one has an 8nm outbound leg length limit.

 

[Hang 4]

From a practical standpoint, you will almost always get vectors for an approach like this. One other suggestion for just fooling around, find a podunk airport that has an RNAV or two and fool around there. On a good VFR day, there's likely no traffic and you can get a feel for stuff like this.

 

[WannFly]

It did what you told it to do. It flew the course reversal then the approach. What am I missing??

i was expecting to do a full turn in the hold, mostly because of my misunderstanding of the hold entry and the procedure by itself

and the 480 depicted the exact size while flying inside the hold... this FliteChart thing is new to me. think GTN did that too with white dotted lines, i was fixating on the chart itself

 

[WannFly]

From a practical standpoint, you will almost always get vectors for an approach like this. One other suggestion for just fooling around, find a podunk airport that has an RNAV or two and fool around there. On a good VFR day, there's likely no traffic and you can get a feel for stuff like this.

thats my plan in a couple of hours, shoot a few in Fargo and get used to ATC vectoring me around as the UPS guys get in and out

 

[PaulS]

I see you answered your own question. In real life you might get held at altitude until it's too late to descend before the approach, sometimes it can be ridiculously high. In that case, even though you are coming in from a NOPT direction you can ask for the procedure turn to lose altitude. If you need a few turns, ask for it, then hit suspend on your gps to stop going to the next way point. When you are ready to proceed, ask, then when you are cleared unsuspend the gps.

 

[MauleSkinner]

i was expecting to do a full turn in the hold, mostly because of my misunderstanding of the hold entry and the procedure by itself

and the 480 depicted the exact size while flying inside the hold... this FliteChart thing is new to me. think GTN did that too with white dotted lines, i was fixating on the chart itself

Looks like a parallel entry to a hold, appropriate for the entry course...if you’re into that kind of thing.

 

[luvflyin]

probably a question for my CFII, but just did a test flight and got a little surprised by what GTN had me do.

disclaimer : all under VFR, with permission from KFAR Approach and they knew what i was doing and i was cleared (i am pretty sure the controllers expect me to do dumb stuff anyway). I am not rated.

I was in the SE of KFAR and went to KOBME (IAF) to RNAV 36 to test out how the plane will fly, coupled approach. i was expecting after reaching KOBME it will do one turn in hold and then fly the rest of the approach. instead, when i punched in direct KOBME, it asked if i would like to fly the course reversal, to which i said yes and instead of doing the actual hold, it took me further south and made a teardrop entry to the approach course, i was outside of the hold area from what i can tell, wondering if there is a way to overlay my track on top of a approach chart to confirm.

View attachment 86263


Flight aware shows the track i flew, well i didnt, the AP did:

View attachment 86264

So what did i do wrong and why my expectation to do a turn in the hold turned down by GTN?

The 'course reversal' IS the 'actual hold.' It did a parallel entry into it. That was not a "teardrop entry to the approach course." It was the 210 degree turn back inbound from the 'parallel entry.' Those GTN's lead the turn to put you outbound on the 'course' which I hate. Makes it harder to do the turn back to inbound. I hand fly them and do them correctly unlike the GTN's, GNS's and I assume most other GPS Navigators. The correct way is to cross the the fix, then turn to an outbound heading that 'parallels' the holding course. Then ya fly that for a minute, or to a certain distance. In this case it would be 8 miles, then ya make the turn back inbound. The AIM talks at length about how you sometimes can't trust RNAV Navigators and some adjustments pilots may need to make. AIM 5-3-8 7. and 8.

 

[Matt James]

@Hang 4 , thanks for the tip on GP on iPAD, so here is the track on the approach plate.

View attachment 86274

as you can see, i am outside the protected hold.

@chemgeek
I am just testing out the GTN and AutoPilot, so yeah kinda forcing to fly it.

i guess, my question is, while studying the approach plate, where does it say i have to fly the course reversal? in real world, coming from SE, i will fly to TULOE or vectors. but purely from a theoretical perspective. I am also wondering if it is within 8 NM and just the drawing of the hold is not to scale.

Edit: ha, the turn was exactly 8 NM outbound. i was expecting the turn to be inside the hold, but looks like the Hold drawing is not to scale.

Not sure if it was answered above, but in a real life situation you’re either going to be getting vectors, which cancels a procedure turn or you’ll be entering from one of T IAF’s. The procedure turn in a real life situation would only be practical if you were coming from the north flying direct to KOBME.

 

[eman1200]

looks normal to me considering you selected to do the course reversal. in reality you prob would have flow nto TULOE then KOBME with no procedure turn.

 

[Larry in TN]

looks normal to me considering you selected to do the course reversal. in reality you prob would have flow nto TULOE then KOBME with no procedure turn.

ANY arrival at KOBME from south of the RIDUE/KOBME/TULOE line is already marked "(NoPT)". See the lower-left corner of the plan-view.

You'd use/request direct RIDUE/TULOE when coming from NORTH of that line in order to avoid the course reversal.

 

[eman1200]

ANY arrival at KOBME from south of the RIDUE/KOBME/TULOE line is already marked "(NoPT)". See the lower-left corner of the plan-view.

You'd use/request direct RIDUE/TULOE when coming from NORTH of that line in order to avoid the course reversal.

Uh, yup. Not sure what that has to do with what I said though. He chose to do the procedure turn but questioned if the actual turn itself was done correctly. In reality there wouldn’t have been a pt.

 

[Larry in TN]

Uh, yup. Not sure what that has to do with what I said though. He chose to do the procedure turn but questioned if the actual turn itself was done correctly. In reality there wouldn’t have been a pt.

It's not necessary to go to TULOE, as you suggested, to avoid the course reversal.

 

[eman1200]

It's not necessary to go to TULOE, as you suggested, to avoid the course reversal.

NO ONE IS ASKING WHERE TO GO TO NOT HAVE TO FLY THE COURSE REVERSAL. The OP is asking >>>IF<<< he had to fly the course reversal, did he do it correctly.

 

[flyingron]

I'm not familiar with the GTN but some of the Garmin navigators like the 480 will always fly a depicted hold unless you SUSP past it. They just don't know about TAAs really. All they know is that you told them to use a given fix as your initial.

 

[chemgeek]

@chemgeek
I am just testing out the GTN and AutoPilot, so yeah kinda forcing to fly it.

i guess, my question is, while studying the approach plate, where does it say i have to fly the course reversal? in real world, coming from SE, i will fly to TULOE or vectors. but purely from a theoretical perspective. I am also wondering if it is within 8 NM and just the drawing of the hold is not to scale.

The depicted racetrack is a HILPT (hold in lieu of procedure turn). That means if you are using KOBME as an IAF, and you are approaching from a direction not designated as NoPT, then you must fly an appropriate hold entry course reversal of your choice. The TAA arcs show you the needed information.

In practice you would nearly always fly a NoPT approach to KOBME from the south or to TULOE or RIDUE with NoPT from the north.

At my airport, they took away the T-entries to the HILPT IAF, forcing you to fly the HILPT as required by the TAA arcs. They did this apparently in part to use the HILPT for one approach to be used as the missed approach hold for the opposite runway procedure. Because of radar coverage sportiness at the required altitudes, I normally get assigned the full approach, no vectors.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm actually not sure what took place or what you are asking, so let's look at is step-by-step.

First, from where you started, it was not necessary nor even permitted (without ATC approval) to fly a procedure turn. You were inbound to KOBME in a "NoPT sector.

Nevertheless, you used KOBME as your IAF and told the Garmin to fly the course reversal. In that situation, the GTN is going to put KOBME in twice. Once as the IAF to start the course reversal and a second time after the hold as the beginning of the intermediate segment to the FAF.



Set up like that, the unit goes to KOBME, prompts the turn outbound for a parallel entry, prompts the turn inbound, crosses KOBME and continues on to the FAF. Even punching D→ KOBME doesn't change that. But when you tap D→ and KOBME comes up, there are two choices which appear below


Could you have possibly pressed "remove" instead of activate? If you tap "Remove", it removes the hold. Depending how it was removed, it might still appear in flight plan like this direct to the second KOBME entry, thereby bypassing the hold. (Done a different way, the first KOBME goes away completely)

 

[aterpster]

At my airport, they took away the T-entries to the HILPT IAF, forcing you to fly the HILPT as required by the TAA arcs. They did this apparently in part to use the HILPT for one approach to be used as the missed approach hold for the opposite runway procedure. Because of radar coverage sportiness at the required altitudes, I normally get assigned the full approach, no vectors.

What's the IAP? In any case the T legs have been removed from many TAA IAPs because a change in criteria required the T legs to be longer than under former criteria. It was an FAA cluster f in my view.

 

[aterpster]

The holding pattern icon is not a representation of the size of the hold. This one has an 8nm outbound leg length limit.

A 4 mile HILPT is normal for that altitude. I guess they used 8 miles because the procedure has CAT E minimums. The protected airspace for an 8 mile pattern is huge.

 

[Larry in TN]

NO ONE IS ASKING WHERE TO GO TO NOT HAVE TO FLY THE COURSE REVERSAL. The OP is asking >>>IF<<< he had to fly the course reversal, did he do it correctly.

I wasn't replying to the OP, I was replying to you. Specifically, I was replying to this single statement that you made.

in reality you prob would have flow nto TULOE then KOBME with no procedure turn.

I was pointing out that you wouldn't need to fly to TULOE to avoid the procedure turn when approaching KOBME from the south. TULOE is there for aircraft that are approaching from the north through east. For an actual approach from the OP's starting position, the OP probably would have flown direct KOBME and that would not require, nor allow without separate ATC approval, a course reversal due to the (NoPT) notation.

 

[eman1200]

I wasn't replying to the OP, I was replying to you. Specifically, I was replying to this single statement that you made.



I was pointing out that you wouldn't need to fly to TULOE to avoid the procedure turn when approaching KOBME from the south. TULOE is there for aircraft that are approaching from the north through east. For an actual approach from the OP's starting position, the OP probably would have flown direct KOBME and that would not require, nor allow without separate ATC approval, a course reversal due to the (NoPT) notation.

I still disagree. He came froM the east and was about a half mile from TULOE.

 

[Larry in TN]

I still disagree. He came froM the east and was about a half mile from TULOE.

He came from the southeast from a position that was south of the TULOE->KOBME line. That puts him in the south TAA sector.

I don't understand with what you disagree.

From that position, direct KOBME does not require, nor allow for, a course reversal at KOBME without separate ATC approval. It is a (NoPT) TAA sector. You gain nothing by going to TULOE first. The purpose TULOE serves is for aircraft coming from the north. They can avoid the need for a course reversal at KOBME by beginning the approach at TULOE instead. The charted course reversal at KOBME is for aircraft arriving from the north and beginning the approach at KOBME.

 

[WannFly]

I'm actually not sure what took place or what you are asking, so let's look at is step-by-step.

First, from where you started, it was not necessary nor even permitted (without ATC approval) to fly a procedure turn. You were inbound to KOBME in a "NoPT sector.

Nevertheless, you used KOBME as your IAF and told the Garmin to fly the course reversal. In that situation, the GTN is going to put KOBME in twice. Once as the IAF to start the course reversal and a second time after the hold as the beginning of the intermediate segment to the FAF.
View attachment 86291


Set up like that, the unit goes to KOBME, prompts the turn outbound for a parallel entry, prompts the turn inbound, crosses KOBME and continues on to the FAF. Even punching D→ KOBME doesn't change that. But when you tap D→ and KOBME comes up, there are two choices which appear below
View attachment 86292

Could you have possibly pressed "remove" instead of activate? If you tap "Remove", it removes the hold. Depending how it was removed, it might still appear in flight plan like this direct to the second KOBME entry, thereby bypassing the hold. (Done a different way, the first KOBME goes away completely)
View attachment 86293

i flew the approach again in the evening and this time from N and it completely made sense. it was flown with ATC permission, so no regs were busted. i was fixated on the FliteChart and expected my turn to be in the charted territory and completely ignored the white dashed line that was actually depicting the PT. other problem was the hold didnt make much sense, which in hindsight is because i forced it to fly it the first time around.

its gonna take some time to get used to this new unit(s)

 

[chemgeek]

What's the IAP? In any case the T legs have been removed from many TAA IAPs because a change in criteria required the T legs to be longer than under former criteria. It was an FAA cluster f in my view.

RNAV 35 and 17 at KVGC. The former approaches had the normal tee design and no HILPT. The FAA took away all the tee entries and replaced them with HILPTs. Now the HILPT for one doubles as the missed approach hold for the other. For the RWY 35 approach, the T-legs were in what looks like uncongested airspace. For RWY 17, the T-legs might have complicated Syracuse and Griffis airspace? The minimums and glidesope angles were addressed by the FAA to deal with changing obstruction requirements and issues with PAPI angles not being coincident with the glideslope, but the IAF changes were a surprise.

 

[aterpster]

RNAV 35 and 17 at KVGC. The former approaches had the normal tee design and no HILPT. The FAA took away all the tee entries and replaced them with HILPTs. Now the HILPT for one doubles as the missed approach hold for the other. For the RWY 35 approach, the T-legs were in what looks like uncongested airspace. For RWY 17, the T-legs might have complicated Syracuse and Griffis airspace? The minimums and glidesope angles were addressed by the FAA to deal with changing obstruction requirements and issues with PAPI angles not being coincident with the glideslope, but the IAF changes were a surprise.

More likely, they didn't want longer T legs under the revised criteria. So far as traffic conflicts with T legs, ATC always has the option to send you to the center fix and straight in provided the course change won't exceed 90 degrees.

 

[iamtheari]

More likely, they didn't want longer T legs under the revised criteria. So far as traffic conflicts with T legs, ATC always has the option to send you to the center fix and straight in provided the course change won't exceed 90 degrees.

As a data point, KXWA is a newly-opened airport as of October 2019. Its two GPS approaches both have HILPT with 180-degree sectors that are NoPT on the outside half, with no T legs at all. The airport was built at the ISN VORTAC so there weren't any convenient airways to turn into feeders to the approaches. I don't know if they would have designed T legs if there had been a convenient airway for it.

 

[aterpster]

As a data point, KXWA is a newly-opened airport as of October 2019. Its two GPS approaches both have HILPT with 180-degree sectors that are NoPT on the outside half, with no T legs at all. The airport was built at the ISN VORTAC so there weren't any convenient airways to turn into feeders to the approaches. I don't know if they would have designed T legs if there had been a convenient airway for it.

Without looking it up, 4,300 would probably require 8 mile T legs.

 

[AA5Bman]

Someone said above that the hold here has a leg limit of 8nm. It’s not a limit, per se, right (?), ie you’re expected to fly an 8nm leg, not just stay within 8nm.

If I’m wrong about that and you you just have to stay within the limit, how do you get a GTN series navigator to initiate the “turnaround” prior to reaching 8 miles?

I had a related experience flying a course reversal that was listed with 5nm legs. I was at about 4.8nm out and the controller asked me when I was going to turn around and I was like... “umm.. where the chart says to do so at 5nm...?”

 

[MauleSkinner]

Someone said above that the hold here has a leg limit of 8nm. It’s not a limit, per se, right (?), ie you’re expected to fly an 8nm leg, not just stay within 8nm.

If I’m wrong about that and you you just have to stay within the limit, how do you get a GTN series navigator to initiate the “turnaround” prior to reaching 8 miles?

I had a related experience flying a course reversal that was listed with 5nm legs. I was at about 4.8nm out and the controller asked me when I was going to turn around and I was like... “umm.. where the chart says to do so at 5nm...?”

You are correct...it’s not a limit, but an expected size.

 

[RussR]

In practice, it's a maximum leg length (based on design criteria), although the only place I can find this spelled out for pilots is in AIM 5-4-9a(5) talking about HILPT:

"For a hold-in-lieu-of-PT, the holding pattern direction must be flown as depicted and the specified leg length/timing must not be exceeded."

If you want to fly a shorter distance than published, that's fine - you're not going to hit anything, you'll be well within the protected airspace, and ATC doesn't care. Most GPS units I've flown with will provide guidance out to the maximum charted distance, and therefore the autopilot will follow that. However, if you elect to turn in early, you can certainly do that and the GPS units in my experience figure out that's what you're doing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

In practice, it's a maximum leg length (based on design criteria), although the only place I can find this spelled out for pilots is in AIM 5-4-9a(5) talking about HILPT:

Someone actually asked the FAA Chief Counsel this one. Yes, it's a maximum. It's the next to last paragraph of this letter.


Personally, I always advised ATC when I do that. Probably completely unnecessary but I have this thing about the importance of the pilot and ATC being on the same page.

 

[PaulS]

An 8 mile leg hold is at least an 8 minute circuit for most light ga aircraft. That's a long time unless you are told to hold for a long period of time.