cost projection for O-470-50 pro-strike inspection

DKirkpatrick

Pre-takeoff checklist
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DKirkpatrick
anybody know what I might expect? trying to find an engine and owner says this one was from a 182 with a ground loop and pro-strike. don't THINK the case s damaged... but...
thanks for the "WAGs"
dan
 
Well, it depends on whether you plan on doing an IRAN and send stuff out for inspection to turn your THINK into KNOW. I’m not sure it’ll save you much if you intend to do an IRAN, unless you’re willing to do it yourself.
 
My WAG is $15K if all is found within tolerance...
 
Iran on my io540 was 10k, plus 5k to R&R
 
Did you send anything out for inspection?
Prop and governor were overhauled; that was maybe 6? I told him to do the alternator, but I think he took it to Autozone.
 
Prop and governor were overhauled; that was maybe 6? I told him to do the alternator, but I think he took it to Autozone.
Magnetos and vacuum pumps can also suffer from sudden RPM drops.
 
Magnetos and vacuum pumps can also suffer from sudden RPM drops.
Mine wasn't a prop strike, so no stoppage, but agreed the OP would need those items inspected as well. Mine puked all its oil out and ran with no oil pressure for several minutes until I could get her on the ground. I was just trying to give a recent data point for cost for an IRAN for a 6 cylinder.
 
I’d be amazed if you could do it that cheap.

IDK? Three years ago my O-360 was overhauled with new cylinders, cam, lifters, mags and a starter for $24K. $15K seemed about right for disassembly, inspection and reassembly. Keep in mind, it is a WAG... ;-)
 
IDK? Three years ago my O-360 was overhauled with new cylinders, cam, lifters, mags and a starter for $24K. $15K seemed about right for disassembly, inspection and reassembly. Keep in mind, it is a WAG... ;-)
You usually have to send that stuff out for inspection, it's rare there's somebody nearby that can do it.
 
Has anyone ever read the SB for the prop strike on thier motor? The number of mandatory parts and checks is quite small.
Any reputable machine shop can NDT parts, but they cannot issue and 8130..

What they can do is dye and flux a crank for cracks letting you know if there is an issue. Your AnP can than IRaN the part back into the motor OR at least you know that its not cracked.

The faa certificated repair stations are using the exact same gear as a machine shop. The process to dye and flux is exactly the same
 
Has anyone ever read the SB for the prop strike on thier motor? The number of mandatory parts and checks is quite small.
Any reputable machine shop can NDT parts, but they cannot issue and 8130..

What they can do is dye and flux a crank for cracks letting you know if there is an issue. Your AnP can than IRaN the part back into the motor OR at least you know that its not cracked.

The faa certificated repair stations are using the exact same gear as a machine shop. The process to dye and flux is exactly the same
You mean like the one linked above that clearly states “magnetic particle inspection”?
 
Any reputable machine shop can NDT parts, but they cannot issue and 8130.. What they can do is dye and flux a crank for cracks letting you know if there is an issue. Your AnP can than IRaN the part back into the motor OR at least you know that its not cracked.
Interesting. So you have an aircraft with a prop strike. You disassemble the engine per the SB and take the required parts to Bubba's Machine Shop. He takes them in back and returns later and tells you there's no cracks. You then reassemble the engine and sign off the SB under your A&P certificate. Correct? So how many times have you actually done this?
 
It could be the thought is to do an INITIAL local inspection to see if it is worth
sending out. I do know folks that signed off on parts after a non-Cert shop did the NDT. Unless the Tech has NDT training and would be able to do if they had the equipment they are not legal to do so per Part 65. I believe they should still want to see the process.

A major engine shop would re-do the NDT process after subbing out work. My bud noticed they were rejecting ALL Cranks from one of the subs. It was particularly upsetting as he had one of the Cranks for his personal engine. This led to the infamous “Nelson Balance” AD of 24 years ago.
 
It could be the thought is to do an INITIAL local inspection to see if it is worth
sending out. I do know folks that signed off on parts after a non-Cert shop did the NDT. Unless the Tech has NDT training and would be able to do if they had the equipment they are not legal to do so per Part 65. I believe they should still want to see the process.

A major engine shop would re-do the NDT process after subbing out work. My bud noticed they were rejecting ALL Cranks from one of the subs. It was particularly upsetting as he had one of the Cranks for his personal engine. This led to the infamous “Nelson Balance” AD of 24 years ago.
CORRECT.

Everyone is so anxious to be captain know it all. A smart anp can dye pen the flange and do a run out east peasy.

And I did say that the machine shop could not issue an 8130 or make an airworthiness call it would be up to the A&P. Anps can supervise work so there is no problem with them watching the test and if it passes returning to service.

If there's any doubt it's up to the owner what to do next all the amp can do is offer solutions and give advice. Waiting 6 months with your thumb up your butt because you don't think any machine shop other than a repair station is capable of magnafluxing and die penning and doing a run out on a crank is your own fault for being uneducated uninformed and generally just not very smart. The magnaflux and dye pen that a certified repair station uses is the exact same machine installed in just about every well stocked machine shop so they don't have any magic unicorn dust or fairy dust to inspect crankshafts it's all standard equipment.

And as always it's up to the A&P to decide if he wants to sign it off and more importantly it's up to the owner operator to ensure the airworthiness of the aircraft remember no matter what the A&P says FAR 91.3 controls
 
Everyone is so anxious to be captain know it all. A smart anp can dye pen the flange and do a run out east peasy.
Anps can supervise work so there is no problem with them watching the test and if it passes returning to service.
The only Capt Know-it-all that shows up without a clue is you. Smart or dumb, an A&P can't sign off NDT inspections unless its specifically documented and approved by the OEM or the A&P is NDT qualified. And it doesn't matter if they use the same equipment as a CRS or not. So what's your point again? Or do you think an owner should pay twice for the same work? And yes I can provide guidance references if you need or better yet why don't you provide the references for your method since you never do?:rolleyes:
 
Has anyone ever read the SB for the prop strike on thier motor? The number of mandatory parts and checks is quite small.
Any reputable machine shop can NDT parts, but they cannot issue and 8130..

What they can do is dye and flux a crank for cracks letting you know if there is an issue. Your AnP can than IRaN the part back into the motor OR at least you know that its not cracked.

The faa certificated repair stations are using the exact same gear as a machine shop. The process to dye and flux is exactly the same

Is this guy for real? :confused:
 
My interpretation of the comment is that is may be easier to do some initial checks locally than to just ship out. Crating and shipping costs may well exceed the local checks. Why ship a paperweight?
 
My interpretation of the comment is that is may be easier to do some initial checks locally than to just ship out. Crating and shipping costs may well exceed the local checks. Why ship a paperweight?
Not sure how you're getting that.
Your AnP can than IRaN the part back into the motor
 
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Anyone can say something is defective but few can certify as acceptable.

If I was was involved my first action would be to dial the Crank before disassembly.

IF it were in limits then I would clean and dye/pen or 10 d glass and check dimensionally.

If no defects found I would either send out or magnaflux locally.

These tasks can be done by non-certified folks.

All this takes little time and cost. If the Crank passes muster on these then I would send to be certified.

I also suggest that folks take a good look over there aircraft between inspections.
You do not have to be an A &P to spot missing rivets, leaking exhaust gaskets etc.
 
Three years ago? So.... double for today, give or take.

OK, decided to look. Not double, but 48% higher. I'm guessing that's mainly due to parts. Also, in my case, that price included shipping round trip freight from ID to NY which I'm sure more than doubled. Interestingly (at least to me) a new engine is only 9% higher...
 
OK, decided to look. Not double, but 48% higher. I'm guessing that's mainly due to parts. Also, in my case, that price included shipping round trip freight from ID to NY which I'm sure more than doubled. Interestingly (at least to me) a new engine is only 9% higher...

oh and three years ago you got this overhauled with a turnaround time in weeks, not months, right?
 
All this takes little time and cost.
Have you actually done this? Outside of checking the flange, journals, etc and a good visual inspection still dont see how this "saves" any money or time using a local shop first unless you're not going to charge the owner for your time and the initial local checks? All small parts and the case aside the cost for a CRS to Mag Particle inspect and dimension check a crankshaft is around $225. So how much are you saving? What about those cranks that need an ultrasound check as well? Do you also supply the local shop with the inspection criteria or just have them wing it? In my experience, if the crank is not bent and isn't at limits when removed few fail at the mag part test. Now my experience is from several moons ago so maybe crankshafts now days crack more and need to be "pre-checked" beforehand however I've never seen this route before. But I guess to each their own.

I would clean and dye/pen
FYI: the use visual dye penetrant inspection on parts that can or will be NDT'd by fluorescent or magnetic particle inspection has basically been disallowed and in some cases prohibited. These type dyes have been proven to mask existing defects when the other types of inspection are used. There are a number of guidance docs on this as well.
 
oh and three years ago you got this overhauled with a turnaround time in weeks, not months, right?

No, it was months what's your point? You don't like my WAG, fine. What's yours? So far I haven't seen anyone other than @Jim K offer anything related to cost...
 
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No, it was months what's your point? You don't like my WAG, fine. What's yours? So far I haven't seen anyone other than @Jim K offer a cost WAG...

My point is three-year data isn't that relevant with today's supply-chain issues, and needs updating. In a normal world 3-year data is pretty relevant, and these aren't normal times.

As an example, I have an acquaintance that just got a quote for a full overhaul of a TIO-540-S1AD, and it held at $99,000. Three years ago this wasn't a $99k job, and engines didn't have a year+ lead-time.

I'm going to SWAG at $15k if no parts are needed, plus $5k labor, and anywhere from six weeks to 6 months based on parts needed. Parts needs will drive this towards $25k-30k plus labor.
 
HMMMM.

pfarber does not share his profile. Not sketchy at all, lol!
 
Bell

How do you tell if the Crank is bent or below minimums if you don’t do some type of Initial Check? Wipe off the oil?

The folks I use considered going CRS at one time. It should be no surprise the FAR145 was a deterrent . I do have them do items like grinding valves while I wait.
Specs would also be easy to send via phone.

I was under the impression that immediate thorough cleaning was needed post dye pen in order to enable subsequent dye pen inspections. I was not aware of the impact on magnaflux. Looks like I should stick to 10X glass.

I would not go this route for a routine O/H . There are times when time is essential though. OP is faced with whether to buy or not. The real question how far the Seller will go in permitting any tear down.

There are tasks that Techs leave to others for various reasons. An example of one I prefer to assign is most bungee installs . Other folks may sub out welding . I’m a somewhat competent OX-AC welder. For TIG I have gone to a welder/metallurgist
(now an A &P ) that can “ Weld the crack of dawn”. btw At one time per FAR 147 welding was a “ Skill Level 2” ( can do, but not really proficient) item.
“Inspection of Welds” was Skill Level 3 ( return to service proficiency).


As you said; “ To each his own”. I do know there is a lot of activities others can do far better than me. Why not?
 
How do you tell if the Crank is bent or below minimums if you don’t do some type of Initial Check? Wipe off the oil?
If you reread my post I said doing those initial checks was the way to go. What I dont understand is why send it a local shop for a mag particle inspection. Now if you're asking how I would perform this initial check, after cleaning the crankshaft get a couple V-blocks, dial indicator, steady rest, micrometer, and an overhaul manual. Then check the runout and dimensions yourself. Shouldn't take more than an hour once the crankshaft is removed and cleaned.
I was under the impression that immediate thorough cleaning was needed post dye pen in order to enable subsequent dye pen inspections. I was not aware of the impact on magnaflux. Looks like I should stick to 10X glass.
Yes on 10x. Here's one reference on visual dye penetrant use:
https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SI1285F Non-Destructive Testing.pdf
upload_2022-11-14_20-43-57.png
 
I guess we do agree on some type of “Initial” but vary on what the “Initial” is in most cases.
I think checking runout before disassembly is a given in this case. I seldom do complete majors anymore so it’s a lot easier to grab the Crank and head for the shop. They have all items you mentioned +. Putting together a container to ship a Crank and shipping charges will far outweigh the CRS charges in terms of time and money.

btw In my case it’s not Bubba but Bob. We go back many, many moons to the days of my brothers hydroplane racing.


Thanks for link on Dye Pen.
 
IDK? Three years ago my O-360 was overhauled with new cylinders, cam, lifters, mags and a starter for $24K. $15K seemed about right for disassembly, inspection and reassembly. Keep in mind, it is a WAG... ;-)

Three years ago is an eon in aircraft parts/labor costs.
 
Three years ago is an eon in aircraft parts/labor costs.

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but yes, I agree prices have gone up from three years ago. That doesn't mean that I can't use my personal experience from three years ago and extrapolate that data to arrive at a WAG for an O-470 prop strike inspection.

I note that you, like my other detractors, haven't submitted a WAG for the OP's original question. So what's your WAG and what methodology did you use to arrive at that WAG?

As a side note, do you know what a WAG is???
 
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