Cost of a private pilot certificate now??

I earned my US Private Cert starting in a Cub and finished it in a Vag.
 
ColinD said:
View attachment 138163

I'm punching the air right now.

I paid $173/hr wet in 2022 for a 172R (fairly new one... only 24 years old.)
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That inflation computer does not reflect the independent increase in fuel cost. Just an item that cost $22 in 1980 would be $85 today.
Also the increased cost of maintenance, parts and insurance that accelerated independently and well above a normal average inflation rate.
Cost of used airplanes almost doubled during Covid. An engine rebuild that cost $30K in 2015 is almost $50K 10yrs later, and that is not include the R/R labor costs.
 
BillTIZ said:
That inflation computer does not reflect the independent increase in fuel cost. Just an item that cost $22 in 1980 would be $85 today.
Also the increased cost of maintenance, parts and insurance that accelerated independently and well above a normal average inflation rate.
Cost of used airplanes almost doubled during Covid. An engine rebuild that cost $30K in 2015 is almost $50K 10yrs later, and that is not include the R/R labor costs.
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Not amortizing the $97.50 for the STC, Mogas is $2.99 gal today.
 
pfarber said:
I've seen garbage CFIs yell at a young woman for God know what. CFI wouldn't sign off my long XC because he had a bad IFR student before me and was ****ed... one small not even mistake set him off and cost me $250. CFIs would drop students at a chance the right seat anything twin or turbine. That was at one of the 6 schools I went through.

CFIs are garbage and and 80%+ drop out rate prives my point.

CFIs are garbage because their goal is not instructing... but 1500 hrs.

CFIs are garbage because FSDOs don't do jack about complaints.

To the 20% that survive the cesspool of flight training, flight schools and CFIs we are the lucky one with more money and brains that most.

Most CFIs are garbage and I can prove it any day of the week.
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I agree with 80% of each of those statements, and been subject to them. As for the next to last, I’ve always said I got to check ride only due to my checkbook and stubbornness, not any smarts, and before POA and similar resources.
 
pfarber said:
I've seen garbage CFIs yell at a young woman for God know what. CFI wouldn't sign off my long XC because he had a bad IFR student before me and was ****ed... one small not even mistake set him off and cost me $250. CFIs would drop students at a chance the right seat anything twin or turbine. That was at one of the 6 schools I went through.

CFIs are garbage and and 80%+ drop out rate prives my point.

CFIs are garbage because their goal is not instructing... but 1500 hrs.

CFIs are garbage because FSDOs don't do jack about complaints.

To the 20% that survive the cesspool of flight training, flight schools and CFIs we are the lucky one with more money and brains that most.

Most CFIs are garbage and I can prove it any day of the week.
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So how far along are you on getting your CFI?
 
MauleSkinner said:
With “both pilots logging PIC” I wouldn’t expect much proficiency regardless. The goal at that point has nothing to do with proficiency.
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Yes and no.

It builds proficiency similarly, if not more, than an airline FO logging time in cruise at FLs.

If both pilots are actively involved in tasks like reading weather and navigating, not just licking the window, I don’t see an issue.

From a CFI perspective, I always thought that if I ran a business with a team mostly made up of CFIs—especially since there’s no PRIA for them—I’d speak with the school owner and ask for the five most recent students they flew with. I'd want to know if the CFI left a student before completing their training, took on a student knowing they couldn’t finish them, or displayed other poor behavior. If they did any of that, I’d expect the same level of disrespect towards my company.

Back when I was a full-time CFI, before leaving, I made sure to notify my boss, stopped taking on new students, and worked with both my new boss and existing students to finish their training. It just felt like the right thing to do.
 
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Roller said:
Yes and no

Builds proficiency about the same, probably more, than a airline FO logging time in cruise up in the FLs
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So don’t let ‘em be airline FOs, either.
Roller said:
If both pilots are active in reading weather, navigating, etc I don’t see a issue
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but that would assume proficiency is the goal.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So don’t let ‘em be airline FOs, either.

but that would assume proficiency is the goal.
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Everyone I have flown with that was the goal.

Why else would they fly, I mean at that point might as well just pencil whip the whole thing and at that point just become a office worker
 
Roller said:
Everyone I have flown with that was the goal.

Why else would they fly, I mean at that point might as well just pencil whip the whole thing and at that point just become a office worker
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Not everyone I’ve worked with has that goal. Or if they did, they had no idea what proficiency actually meant. Mostly the goal was hours in the logbook.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Not everyone I’ve worked with has that goal. Or if they did, they had no idea what proficiency actually meant. Mostly the goal was hours in the logbook.
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I see it similarly when I come across senior pilots at the company who have an ATP, MEL, CPL SEL, and their CFI is long expired and they don’t engage in general aviation. They seem to be just in it for the paycheck, the “work to live, not live to work” mentality. I feel bad for them, but I also tend to keep a closer eye on them.
 
pfarber said:
Sadly I need one every two years.

I've given up on flying clubs as checkouts from 'approved' CFIs are not to FAA standards, but whatever they think is acceptable and their fee is whatever they want (not set by the club). No thanks.
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So you’re happy with the status quo.
 
As with all professions, there are good and bad ones. You need to take the time to find a good one. Doctor, dentist, accountant, lawyer, CFI, all the same situation.

But remember, many CFIs are young and have maybe 300 hours total time themselves. That is less than 8 weeks full time employment experience.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So how far along are you on getting your CFI?
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That would be interesting.

On POA we constantly hear how awful instructors are or can be. Students are full of criticisms of their instructors. What they do not know is that instructors are faced with a wide variety of student attitudes and behaviors, and they have to deal with those. It is not easy at all, and sometimes instructors just get fed up with the job. They, like dentists, are not appreciated. Sure, there are jerk instructors, but there are also jerk students.

From the Canadian Flight Instructor Guide:

Meeting the Differences​

12. You must be cognizant of the differences in aptitude, personality, and emotions among your students, and understand the necessity to treat students as individuals. When you have analyzed the situation and determined the differences, seek assistance from more experienced instructors or supervisors when it is necessary. You will attempt to equalize the different levels of understanding, ideally raising the level of some without retarding the progress of others. Coping with differences among students is perhaps the greatest challenge of instructing, and finding the correct approach for each student is essential.

13. Some traits and faults of students are fairly common and can be recognized easily. These are discussed in the following paragraphs, together with suggested corrective actions. (Refer to Table 2 below)

  1. NERVOUS OR UNDERCONFIDENT. Nervousness or underconfidence in a student is a trait which may or may not disappear. Instruction may be too rapid and material may not be absorbed. Repeating the fundamentals and ensuring mastery will often alleviate this condition. You must ensure that this type of student receives deserved praise whenever possible. Harsh rebukes should be avoided. Patience is very necessary when dealing with a student of this nature. The student must be aware that you are trying to help. Nervous students may be so apprehensive that they may not be suitable for pilot training. You should avoid manoeuvres involving high G and extreme aircraft attitudes, unless they are essential to the lesson being taught. Take the time to build the student up to exercises involving high G loads or extreme attitudes.
  2. OVER-CONFIDENT OR CONCEITED. You must first ensure that this type of student has the ability to match the confidence and, if so, set more difficult tasks that require greater accuracy. More criticism of imperfections is advisable. If the student has little ability, counselling may be required. Any signs of familiarity must be discouraged.
  3. FORGETFUL OF INSTRUCTION. At the beginning of training, students may forget previous instruction. Students with this problem require a great deal of patience and probably need more review than the average student. Extra time spent in briefing and debriefing, and more study on the student's part should be rewarding for all concerned.
  4. INCONSISTENT. Many students, at one time or another throughout the course, appear to lack consistency in flying proficiency. There are many reasons for this and you must try to find the one that fits a particular student. You must look at yourself and your attitude towards the student. Most of us have good days and bad days, but when a student shows large fluctuations in proficiency the instructor must look closely at the teaching activities. A change in approach or even a change in instructors may be called for.
  5. SLOW STARTERS. Slow starters may be students who find difficulty doing more than one thing at a time. Again, patience is mandatory. Progress may be slow, but encouragement will help.
  6. FAST STARTERS. Fast starters are usually students with previous exposure to flight training who quickly grasp the initial air exercises. You should not omit anything from the briefings. Watch for signs of weakness when new work is introduced. This type of student usually slows down to the level of the others shortly after going solo. A high degree of proficiency throughout the course should not be anticipated unless the student has above average ability.
  7. IMMATURE. You must not be too harsh with students who appear immature. You will find that within a short time in the flying training environment, the students will attain a greater degree of maturity. Your attitude is of prime importance in setting an example. You must encourage and assist these students whenever possible.
  8. AIRSICKNESS. Some students may suffer from airsickness induced by motion, negative G, apprehension, claustrophobia, tensions or excitement. You must attempt to determine what affects the student. When signs of airsickness show up, try methods of prevention such as letting the student fly straight and level, stopping instruction, inducing relaxation, making conversation about something else, or whatever will keep a particular student from becoming airsick.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That would be interesting.

On POA we constantly hear how awful instructors are or can be. Students are full of criticisms of their instructors. What they do not know is that instructors are faced with a wide variety of student attitudes and behaviors, and they have to deal with those. It is not easy at all, and sometimes instructors just get fed up with the job. They, like dentists, are not appreciated. Sure, there are jerk instructors, but there are also jerk students.

From the Canadian Flight Instructor Guide:

Meeting the Differences​

12. You must be cognizant of the differences in aptitude, personality, and emotions among your students, and understand the necessity to treat students as individuals. When you have analyzed the situation and determined the differences, seek assistance from more experienced instructors or supervisors when it is necessary. You will attempt to equalize the different levels of understanding, ideally raising the level of some without retarding the progress of others. Coping with differences among students is perhaps the greatest challenge of instructing, and finding the correct approach for each student is essential.

13. Some traits and faults of students are fairly common and can be recognized easily. These are discussed in the following paragraphs, together with suggested corrective actions. (Refer to Table 2 below)

  1. NERVOUS OR UNDERCONFIDENT. Nervousness or underconfidence in a student is a trait which may or may not disappear. Instruction may be too rapid and material may not be absorbed. Repeating the fundamentals and ensuring mastery will often alleviate this condition. You must ensure that this type of student receives deserved praise whenever possible. Harsh rebukes should be avoided. Patience is very necessary when dealing with a student of this nature. The student must be aware that you are trying to help. Nervous students may be so apprehensive that they may not be suitable for pilot training. You should avoid manoeuvres involving high G and extreme aircraft attitudes, unless they are essential to the lesson being taught. Take the time to build the student up to exercises involving high G loads or extreme attitudes.
  2. OVER-CONFIDENT OR CONCEITED. You must first ensure that this type of student has the ability to match the confidence and, if so, set more difficult tasks that require greater accuracy. More criticism of imperfections is advisable. If the student has little ability, counselling may be required. Any signs of familiarity must be discouraged.
  3. FORGETFUL OF INSTRUCTION. At the beginning of training, students may forget previous instruction. Students with this problem require a great deal of patience and probably need more review than the average student. Extra time spent in briefing and debriefing, and more study on the student's part should be rewarding for all concerned.
  4. INCONSISTENT. Many students, at one time or another throughout the course, appear to lack consistency in flying proficiency. There are many reasons for this and you must try to find the one that fits a particular student. You must look at yourself and your attitude towards the student. Most of us have good days and bad days, but when a student shows large fluctuations in proficiency the instructor must look closely at the teaching activities. A change in approach or even a change in instructors may be called for.
  5. SLOW STARTERS. Slow starters may be students who find difficulty doing more than one thing at a time. Again, patience is mandatory. Progress may be slow, but encouragement will help.
  6. FAST STARTERS. Fast starters are usually students with previous exposure to flight training who quickly grasp the initial air exercises. You should not omit anything from the briefings. Watch for signs of weakness when new work is introduced. This type of student usually slows down to the level of the others shortly after going solo. A high degree of proficiency throughout the course should not be anticipated unless the student has above average ability.
  7. IMMATURE. You must not be too harsh with students who appear immature. You will find that within a short time in the flying training environment, the students will attain a greater degree of maturity. Your attitude is of prime importance in setting an example. You must encourage and assist these students whenever possible.
  8. AIRSICKNESS. Some students may suffer from airsickness induced by motion, negative G, apprehension, claustrophobia, tensions or excitement. You must attempt to determine what affects the student. When signs of airsickness show up, try methods of prevention such as letting the student fly straight and level, stopping instruction, inducing relaxation, making conversation about something else, or whatever will keep a particular student from becoming airsick.
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Back when I was instructing regularly, I had some great self-driven, motivated students. There were some that honestly I wondered what was I providing to them as a CFI, because I almost felt they were teaching me!

Then I had the others. The ones that would ghost you for months, then show up and demand to be signed off for solo because they hit 10 hours and that is when their buddy soloed. The ones that would cancel at the last minute because something came up, but you began to not mind. The ones that wouldn't crack a book or prepare for the written. The ones that would show up for their lesson so distracted, you had to make sure they got in the right airplane! And I will say, there are certain types of people that just shouldn't be pilots, or probably even drive a car, they just don't have the aptitude for operating anything more than a tricycle.

As for the cost, inflation is not a blanket rate across all things and industries. It is driven by many factors, some specific to certain products and services. General Aviation has suffered greatly in this regard. The cost of a new 172 has soared well above average inflation. Insurance and liability are major factors in aviation, which is part of what has driven that cost. The % of the population participating in General Aviation has slowly declined, which is leading to higher costs as well. When I started flying in the late 90s, I was renting a well traveled Cessna 150 for $40 wet/$50 with instructor. It costs me more than $40 an hour in gas alone in my airplane today.
 
Dan Thomas said:
That would be interesting.

On POA we constantly hear how awful instructors are or can be. Students are full of criticisms of their instructors. What they do not know is that instructors are faced with a wide variety of student attitudes and behaviors, and they have to deal with those. It is not easy at all, and sometimes instructors just get fed up with the job. They, like dentists, are not appreciated. Sure, there are jerk instructors, but there are also jerk students.

From the Canadian Flight Instructor Guide:

Meeting the Differences​

12. You must be cognizant of the differences in aptitude, personality, and emotions among your students, and understand the necessity to treat students as individuals. When you have analyzed the situation and determined the differences, seek assistance from more experienced instructors or supervisors when it is necessary. You will attempt to equalize the different levels of understanding, ideally raising the level of some without retarding the progress of others. Coping with differences among students is perhaps the greatest challenge of instructing, and finding the correct approach for each student is essential.

13. Some traits and faults of students are fairly common and can be recognized easily. These are discussed in the following paragraphs, together with suggested corrective actions. (Refer to Table 2 below)

  1. NERVOUS OR UNDERCONFIDENT. Nervousness or underconfidence in a student is a trait which may or may not disappear. Instruction may be too rapid and material may not be absorbed. Repeating the fundamentals and ensuring mastery will often alleviate this condition. You must ensure that this type of student receives deserved praise whenever possible. Harsh rebukes should be avoided. Patience is very necessary when dealing with a student of this nature. The student must be aware that you are trying to help. Nervous students may be so apprehensive that they may not be suitable for pilot training. You should avoid manoeuvres involving high G and extreme aircraft attitudes, unless they are essential to the lesson being taught. Take the time to build the student up to exercises involving high G loads or extreme attitudes.
  2. OVER-CONFIDENT OR CONCEITED. You must first ensure that this type of student has the ability to match the confidence and, if so, set more difficult tasks that require greater accuracy. More criticism of imperfections is advisable. If the student has little ability, counselling may be required. Any signs of familiarity must be discouraged.
  3. FORGETFUL OF INSTRUCTION. At the beginning of training, students may forget previous instruction. Students with this problem require a great deal of patience and probably need more review than the average student. Extra time spent in briefing and debriefing, and more study on the student's part should be rewarding for all concerned.
  4. INCONSISTENT. Many students, at one time or another throughout the course, appear to lack consistency in flying proficiency. There are many reasons for this and you must try to find the one that fits a particular student. You must look at yourself and your attitude towards the student. Most of us have good days and bad days, but when a student shows large fluctuations in proficiency the instructor must look closely at the teaching activities. A change in approach or even a change in instructors may be called for.
  5. SLOW STARTERS. Slow starters may be students who find difficulty doing more than one thing at a time. Again, patience is mandatory. Progress may be slow, but encouragement will help.
  6. FAST STARTERS. Fast starters are usually students with previous exposure to flight training who quickly grasp the initial air exercises. You should not omit anything from the briefings. Watch for signs of weakness when new work is introduced. This type of student usually slows down to the level of the others shortly after going solo. A high degree of proficiency throughout the course should not be anticipated unless the student has above average ability.
  7. IMMATURE. You must not be too harsh with students who appear immature. You will find that within a short time in the flying training environment, the students will attain a greater degree of maturity. Your attitude is of prime importance in setting an example. You must encourage and assist these students whenever possible.
  8. AIRSICKNESS. Some students may suffer from airsickness induced by motion, negative G, apprehension, claustrophobia, tensions or excitement. You must attempt to determine what affects the student. When signs of airsickness show up, try methods of prevention such as letting the student fly straight and level, stopping instruction, inducing relaxation, making conversation about something else, or whatever will keep a particular student from becoming airsick.
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These and other student traits and the instructor’s attempts to cope with these traits are often what drive a learner’s impression of an instructor.
 
pfarber said:
and you prove my point. you are costing students money and increasing the failure/dropout rate because you think you need to go above and beyond. The ACS doesn't have minimums, it has STANDARDS that must be met.

CFI are like the idiot AnP's who thinks they have the power to ground aircraft because they think something is unairworthy. Both are 100% wrong.
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There is so much wrong with this I don’t even know where to start.

Take it you are not a CFI nor a professional pilot?
 
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