Cost- Attitude indicator and heading indicator for checkride

C

Cardiff_Kook

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
23
Display Name
Display name:
Cardiff_Kook
Have a 1951 champ ec I want to train and do my ppl check ride in.

I'm told it lacks necessary instrumentation for ppl checkride- namely attitude indicator and heading indicator.

Is it possible to have these installed? Would it be cost prohibitive/stupid to do so as oppossed to just flying check ride in another plane? Would it increase resale value?

Adding picture of current panel (which I probably should have done from beginning)

champ panel.PNG
 
Last edited:
If the instruments are not part of VFR day instruments, then they are not required for the checkride. Have your DPE show you where in the FAR or ACS it states that you have to have those for the checkride. You also don’t need any navigation equipment installed (VOR, GPS, DME). If you bring your iPad/iPhone, you can use that for navigation, but you also expected to know how to use it effectively and it “will lose its battery” at some point. But you can also just navigate using pilotage, dead reckoning, and even call up ATC for a vector if you want. I think I told the DPE that I was going to call ATC for a vector at some point and she just moved on to the next section, realizing that ATC would get me anything I needed.

You can theoretically take the ride in a single seat airplane with no electrical system and the DPE standing on the ground (but none of them would agree to it). However, it is possible.
 
true, but the needle,ball,airspeed for flight by reference to instruments will be real fun!
 
Mathew, I’m curious how the DPE would be able to determine that you were within a specified angle of bank of ±10° for slow flight, maintain a specified heading ±10° if in straight flight; maintain a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10° if in turning flight, while inducing the stall for power-off stalls, and maintain a specified heading, ±10° if in straight flight; maintain a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10° if in turning flight, while inducing the stall in power-on stalls if there is no AI or HI?

I’d also be really curious to know how a DPE could evaluate you on the Navigation Systems and Radar Services task without an electrical system.
 
JScarry said:
Mathew, I’m curious how the DPE would be able to determine that you were within a specified angle of bank of ±10° for slow flight, maintain a specified heading ±10° if in straight flight; maintain a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10° if in turning flight, while inducing the stall for power-off stalls, and maintain a specified heading, ±10° if in straight flight; maintain a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10° if in turning flight, while inducing the stall in power-on stalls if there is no AI or HI?

I’d also be really curious to know how a DPE could evaluate you on the Navigation Systems and Radar Services task without an electrical system.
Click to expand...
You think a DPE is looking at the instruments to determine if you stay in the the specs for bank angles? Uh, no.
 
unsafervguy said:
true, but the needle,ball,airspeed for flight by reference to instruments will be real fun!
Click to expand...
I didn't think you needed any instruments for the ppl flight test that are not required equipment for your certified aircraft. I took my ppl check flight(it was a long while ago...) aircraft was a 7KCAB Citabria I owned and did my training in. Panel instruments: airspeed, altimeter, turn and bank, and compass (also VSI and G-meter). I did my under the hood training in the same airplane and could do basic instrument maneuvers quite well. It did have a basic NavComm (Escort 110), so my examiner required me to demonstrate VOR navigation.

If your examiner is telling you you need to install an attitude indicator and DG for your check flight, I think I would get another examiner's opinion.
 
Last edited:
edo2000 said:
If your examiner is telling you you need to install an attitude indicator and DG for your check flight, I think I would get another examiner's opinion.
Click to expand...

I would get a whole other examiner. When DPEs throw up barriers that are not rooted in ACS/FAA requirement, they're saying "I don't want to fly in that", not "I can't fly in that"
 
Op here.

Interesting how much disagreement there is here. I have encountered the same locally with very experienced pilots and CFI's.

The trick is to find a local dpe who will do it here in San Diego.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 
JScarry said:
Mathew, I’m curious how the DPE would be able to determine that you were within a specified angle of bank of ±10° for slow flight, maintain a specified heading ±10° if in straight flight; maintain a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10° if in turning flight, while inducing the stall for power-off stalls, and maintain a specified heading, ±10° if in straight flight; maintain a specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10° if in turning flight, while inducing the stall in power-on stalls if there is no AI or HI?
Click to expand...

You have literally the largest attitude indicator (the actual horizon) and heading indicator (the ground) right outside the window. Any pilot experienced enough to be a DPE isn't going to have much of a problem identifying bank and heading without looking at the instruments. Besides "close enough" in this instance, is actually "close enough".
 
Cardiff_Kook said:
Op here.

Interesting how much disagreement there is here. I have encountered the same locally with very experienced pilots and CFI's.

The trick is to find a local dpe who will do it here in San Diego.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
It will probably be cheaper to fly out of the San Diego area for your checkride (or import an examiner from somewhere else) than to install the equipment.
 
You'll find that cost of installation would probably be way too much to justify.
Does your aircraft have a gyroscopic turn-and-bank, maybe venturi-driven, instrument? There is really no way to accomplish the Basic Instrument Maneuvers tasks of Section VIII in the ACS without at least that as a minimum. Though more difficult than if you had AI and DG gyros, you can perform the instrument tasks and unusual attitude recoveries with only the turn-and-bank as the only gyro, that's where the old "needle, ball, and airspeed" saying comes from. And, after all, for the steam-gauge generation of instrument pilots, that is how flight during partial-panel is done (where vacuum pump failure causes both AI and DG to die).
I may be wrong, but I don't believe a portable GPS or iPad with an AHRS driven attitude display will qualify.
Lacking the gyro, you may be able to perform everything else on the checkride in your champ, then get in another plane with gyros to demonstrate the instrument maneuvers. Yes, this will take more training and some added expense, but way less than adding instruments to your plane.
In any case, you, your CFI, and the DPE you may use should sit down to discuss options, but installing instruments in your plane is not a realistic choice, IMHO.
Maybe Ryan F., an examiner here on the forum, will be along to give the "official" DPE take on your issue.
 
Dynon D3 "pocket EFIS". Self contained, clips into any open instrument hole.
You could even just borrow one.
 
How will you demonstrate the instrument requirements under the hood in that Plane?

Not saying you couldn't but can you meet all the training and checkride requirements in that plane? if not, you'll need at minimum a 2nd plane.
 
You are totally fine to take the ride with that panel. I would even ditch the Garmin GPSmap and just use that piece of velco to attach your iPhone (or similar) in that spot on the panel running an EFB like Foreflight or FlyQ. Or have both and you will have a backup GPS running so that the DPS will have to fail both of them at the same time. Then you have another one in your flight bag already running and plugged into a portable battery pack to pull out when the first two "fail".
 
edo2000 said:
I didn't think you needed any instruments for the ppl flight test that are not required equipment for your certified aircraft. I took my ppl check flight(it was a long while ago...) aircraft was a 7KCAB Citabria I owned and did my training in. Panel instruments: airspeed, altimeter, turn and bank, and compass (also VSI and G-meter). I did my under the hood training in the same airplane and could do basic instrument maneuvers quite well. It did have a basic NavComm (Escort 110), so my examiner required me to demonstrate VOR navigation.

If your examiner is telling you you need to install an attitude indicator and DG for your check flight, I think I would get another examiner's opinion.
Click to expand...
edo2000 said:
I didn't think you needed any instruments
Click to expand...
edo2000 said:
I didn't think you needed any instruments for the ppl flight test that are not required equipment for your certified aircraft. I took my ppl check flight(it was a long while ago...) aircraft was a 7KCAB Citabria I owned and did my training in. Panel instruments: airspeed, altimeter, turn and bank, and compass (also VSI and G-meter). I did my under the hood training in the same airplane and could do basic instrument maneuvers quite well. It did have a basic NavComm (Escort 110), so my examiner required me to demonstrate VOR navigation.

If your examiner is telling you you need to install an attitude indicator and DG for your check flight, I think I would get another examiner's opinion.
Click to expand...
neddle ball and airspeed refers to flying instruments with nothing more than a turn and bank, altimeter and airspeed indicator
 
Matthew Rogers said:
You are totally fine to take the ride with that panel. I would even ditch the Garmin GPSmap and just use that piece of velco to attach your iPhone (or similar) in that spot on the panel running an EFB like Foreflight or FlyQ. Or have both and you will have a backup GPS running so that the DPS will have to fail both of them at the same time. Then you have another one in your flight bag already running and plugged into a portable battery pack to pull out when the first two "fail".
Click to expand...
This isn’t an instrument checkride...if the electronic navigation “fails”, it’s to demonstrate the pilotage/DR task.

but basically, yes, @Cardiff_Kook , you are 100% good for a checkride with that panel.
 
unsafervguy said:
neddle ball and airspeed refers to flying instruments with nothing more than a turn and bank, altimeter and airspeed indicator
Click to expand...
Yes, I understand what needle, ball, and airspeed flying means. As I mentioned in an earlier post, is was common to (as I did on my checkride) demonstrate basic instrument maneuvers such as straight and level flight, climbs, descents, 180 and 360 degree turns, etc. with only those instruments, and a clock to time your standard rate turns. You are not doing instrument approaches, you are demonstrating that you can retain control of the aircraft using only instrument references. E.g., to execute a 180 degree turn back to VFR conditions.
 
You're good, the turn coordinator gives you the gyro you need for the required PPL instrument maneuvers.
 
Cardiff_Kook said:
Have a 1951 champ ec I want to train and do my ppl check ride in.

I'm told it lacks necessary instrumentation for ppl checkride- namely attitude indicator and heading indicator.

Is it possible to have these installed? Would it be cost prohibitive/stupid to do so as oppossed to just flying check ride in another plane? Would it increase resale value?

Adding picture of current panel (which I probably should have done from beginning)

View attachment 81695
Click to expand...

Look at FAR 91.205...below are instrument requirements (there's some other noninstrument stuff after that in the FAR).

(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Airspeed indicator.

(2) Altimeter.

(3) Magnetic direction indicator.

(4) Tachometer for each engine.

(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.

(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.

(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.

(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.

(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.

(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.
 
Craigd31 said:
Look at FAR 91.205...below are instrument requirements (there's some other noninstrument stuff after that in the FAR).

(b) Visual-flight rules (day). For VFR flight during the day, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Airspeed indicator.

(2) Altimeter.

(3) Magnetic direction indicator.

(4) Tachometer for each engine.

(5) Oil pressure gauge for each engine using pressure system.

(6) Temperature gauge for each liquid-cooled engine.

(7) Oil temperature gauge for each air-cooled engine.

(8) Manifold pressure gauge for each altitude engine.

(9) Fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank.

(10) Landing gear position indicator, if the aircraft has a retractable landing gear.
Click to expand...
You need more than the basic 91.205 stuff for the checkride, though.
 
Last edited:
unsafervguy said:
true, but the needle,ball,airspeed for flight by reference to instruments will be real fun!
Click to expand...
He is high class, he has Turn Coordinator. He even has an extra compass and VSI that are not required. I recently had a student do his PP checkride with a Needle and Ball for the only Gyro. It just depends on what you learn and are comfortable with.
I agree, the champ would be fine for a checkride as is. And why mess up a champ panel with more gyros?

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Performing unusual attitude recovery will be challenging with that airplane.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, but challenging for a PPL applicant. If you practice it, doable.
Click to expand...

If that's the applicant's (regular) plane, then they absolutely should learn/know how to recover from unusual attitudes in it. Recovery is not just a checkride maneuver.
 
JoeSelch said:
If that's the applicant's (regular) plane, then they absolutely should learn/know how to recover from unusual attitudes in it. Recovery is not just a checkride maneuver.
Click to expand...
True
 
JoeSelch said:
If that's the applicant's (regular) plane, then they absolutely should learn/know how to recover from unusual attitudes in it. Recovery is not just a checkride maneuver.
Click to expand...
I’d also suggest learning the U of I technique...it won’t be acceptable on the checkride, but since it relies on the stability of the airplane more than perishable pilot skills, it’d probably be better long term.
https://archive.org/details/180degreeturnexp11brya
 
brcase said:
I would like to know how this is done. The only way I know of is with a Bohli Compass.

http://www.hkavionics.com/Bohli_man/ba_kompi_e4.pdf

Click to expand...
In reasonably smooth air, with a constant airspeed (no acceleration errors), a VERY good knowledge of northerly turning errors, and LOTS of practice, it can be done for several minutes.

it also helps if the glider pilot can follow the 50-75 feet of rope that he can see. ;)

I’ve always wanted to spend time playing with the vertical card compass like is in the OP’s panel...if it’s as good as people say, I think it would be a usable instrument.

You definitely have to avoid unusual attitudes, though.
 
Salty said:
Performing unusual attitude recovery will be challenging with that airplane.
Click to expand...

in some ways it is actually almost easier. not nearly as much information to process.
Procedure
1. Look/hear airspeed and adjust power accordingly.
High or increase speed, cut power to idle
Speed stable, do nothing to power.
Low or decreasing speed Not stalled, full power

2. Apply aileron to correct the turn shown on the Needle or Turn Coordinator,

3. Once turn stopped, maintain straight flight,
Set power back to normal power setting
Airplane will return to the previously trimmed flight condition

Brian
CFIIG
 
Last edited:
brcase said:
in some says it is actually almost easier. not nearly as much information to process.
Procedure
1. Look/hear airspeed and adjust power accordingly.
High or increase speed, cut power to idle
Speed stable, do nothing to power.
Low or decreasing speed Not stalled, full power

2. Apply aileron to correct the turn,
Click to expand...
Or use the Stark 1-2-3 method...
1. Center the needle with rudder (works better with a T&B IMO, but still doable with a TC)
2. Center the ball with bank
3. Use vertical speed to determine whether to pull up or push down (I personally prefer airspeed), and power as required.
 
MauleSkinner said:
In reasonably smooth air, with a constant airspeed (no acceleration errors), a VERY good knowledge of northerly turning errors, and LOTS of practice, it can be done for several minutes.

it also helps if the glider pilot can follow the 50-75 feet of rope that he can see. ;)

I’ve always wanted to spend time playing with the vertical card compass like is in the OP’s panel...if it’s as good as people say, I think it would be a usable instrument.

You definitely have to avoid unusual attitudes, though.
Click to expand...

Good point, I have thought it possible to do pretty good with just a Compass, at least to maintain straight and level flight. I haven't really practiced it much.

Vertical Compasses seems to come in to flavors, Works very Good, and work very poorly(large heading errors)
seems Like I see a larger percentage of works poorly than the ones that work well.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
MauleSkinner said:
Or use the Stark 1-2-3 method...
1. Center the needle with rudder (works better with a T&B IMO, but still doable with a TC)
2. Center the ball with bank
3. Use vertical speed to determine whether to pull up or push down (I personally prefer airspeed), and power as required.
Click to expand...

Haven't seen that one before, will have to try it. thanks

Brian
 
brcase said:
Good point, I have thought it possible to do pretty good with just a Compass, at least to maintain straight and level flight. I haven't really practiced it much.

Vertical Compasses seems to come in to flavors, Works very Good, and work very poorly(large heading errors)
seems Like I see a larger percentage of works poorly than the ones that work well.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...
For constant heading, south is the easiest...maximum compass movement in the right direction for any heading change.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top