Controller responding Negative to canceling radar services?

[aanderson81]

Over the weekend I was coming back from Maine and was utilizing flight following. I got handed off to Boston Center and was approaching my destination. At about 10-12 miles out I had not been contacted about terminating radar services and frequency changed approved. so I waited for a break and called in canceling radar services and got a reply back that was more or less "Negative and all VFR aircraft you do no call into me, i will call out to you" At this point I was going to be descending in a moment and was a bit fluxored as what to do? Do i call back again canceling radar services or do I say screw it and switch to CTAF and get on the ground. Thankfully a moment or 2 later I got a reply back handing me off to Bradley Approach and instead responded canceling services. But had it been another moment or 2 it quite likely could have been I was too low to cancel services.

I understand this is a bit of a unique circumstance, but what would have been the correct response had I continued my decent and was approaching a point where I would have no longer been able to communicate with Boston Center? Should I have reiterated my cancellation request or just switched to CTAF and landed normally as I had already made my cancellation request?

 

[Fearless Tower]

Usually, when you get that from a controller it is because he is busy working some other higher priority traffic (often he'll be working two different freqs, so you may not hear the other traffic he is talking to). They will usually get back to you shortly as it looks like they did.

If you really do lose contact with ATC and you land, you can call the center up on the land line and let them know you've landed.

If it isn't listed in ForeFlight, here is a phone list for ARTCC's:

http://www.ofcm.gov/nhop/09/pdf/19-app_i-09.pdf

And this AOPA page has towers and TRACON numbers as well:
http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/A...ers-Only-AOPA-ePilot-Volume-2-Issue-3/atc.pdf

 

[EdFred]

Sounds like the controller was having a bad day. I have initiated radar services terminated many a time with no backtalk.

 

[airdale]

... I understand this is a bit of a unique circumstance, but what would have been the correct response had I continued my decent and was approaching a point where I would have no longer been able to communicate with Boston Center? Should I have reiterated my cancellation request or just switched to CTAF and landed normally as I had already made my cancellation request?

Call Center and ask them. They might even pull the tapes in order to give you a good answer.

 

[roncachamp]

Over the weekend I was coming back from Maine and was utilizing flight following. I got handed off to Boston Center and was approaching my destination. At about 10-12 miles out I had not been contacted about terminating radar services and frequency changed approved. so I waited for a break and called in canceling radar services and got a reply back that was more or less "Negative and all VFR aircraft you do no call into me, i will call out to you" At this point I was going to be descending in a moment and was a bit fluxored as what to do? Do i call back again canceling radar services or do I say screw it and switch to CTAF and get on the ground. Thankfully a moment or 2 later I got a reply back handing me off to Bradley Approach and instead responded canceling services. But had it been another moment or 2 it quite likely could have been I was too low to cancel services.

I understand this is a bit of a unique circumstance, but what would have been the correct response had I continued my decent and was approaching a point where I would have no longer been able to communicate with Boston Center? Should I have reiterated my cancellation request or just switched to CTAF and landed normally as I had already made my cancellation request?

Assuming you mean 10-12 miles out from KBDL, you should have already been handed off and shipped to Bradley approach. Had it been me, I wouldn't have waited that long to terminate service with Boston ARTCC. Had I received the response that you did I'd have contacted Bradley approach.

 

[MAKG1]

The only times I've heard that have been related to another aircraft in distress. Get out of his way, even dropping off frequency if needed to land safely. 10+ miles out is a bit far.

The last time I heard that, Approach refused a handoff from Tower inside Class C. I went back to tower and descended out of the shelf, away from the primary airport and the nearby satellite.

 

[EdFred]

The last time I heard that, Approach refused a handoff from Tower inside Class C. I went back to tower and descended out of the shelf, away from the primary airport and the nearby satellite.

Wow. I wouldn't have been so accommodating. I would have just went on my planned heading, and altitude. If the guy on the radar screen doesn't like doing his job, maybe he needs a new line of work.

 

[Fearless Tower]

The only times I've heard that have been related to another aircraft in distress. Get out of his way, even dropping off frequency if needed to land safely. 10+ miles out is a bit far.

I used to hear it from PHX TRACON all the time. It got so bad at times that they'd make transmissions like that to IFR aircraft trying to check in.

 

[aanderson81]

Assuming you mean 10-12 miles out from KBDL, you should have already been handed off and shipped to Bradley approach. Had it been me, I wouldn't have waited that long to terminate service with Boston ARTCC. Had I received the response that you did I'd have contacted Bradley approach.

7B2, its right on the edge of Bradley and Boston. If flying north Bradley will ask you to wait to open flight following because you are right on their outer edge of their airspace. As for being able to contact, there are some ridges in the area that I assume effect radio as I have called for radar services and received no reply before until I've climbed a bit more coming out of the airport. Maybe its just an assumption and they were busy but i've had it happen more than once.

 

[aanderson81]

Sounds like the controller was having a bad day. I have initiated radar services terminated many a time with no backtalk.

I think this is the case. It was pretty busy with airline traffic and it did take me a moment or 2 before I was able to get a gap to make my request.

I didnt want to gum up the works any more, but at the same time I was really getting to where I wanted to be on CTAF and preparing for landing and had not heard anything from Boston

 

[roncachamp]

7B2, its right on the edge of Bradley and Boston. If flying north Bradley will ask you to wait to open flight following because you are right on their outer edge of their airspace. As for being able to contact, there are some ridges in the area that I assume effect radio as I have called for radar services and received no reply before until I've climbed a bit more coming out of the airport. Maybe its just an assumption and they were busy but i've had it happen more than once.

Well, that changes things a bit. In that case, had I received the response that you did, I'd have called on Northampton CTAF.

 

[James331]

You're flight following, you can decend, climb, etc at your own discretion. Just do your thing.

Change freq as required, if the controller isn't on his game, or is too busy, if I only have one comm I'm not going to get closer and closer to the field jammed up on his frequency when I should be monitoring the field I'm landing at.


I spose, if it were me, I would have just came back and said "Cessna 123 field in sight, changing freq, good day".

 

[MAKG1]

Wow. I wouldn't have been so accommodating. I would have just went on my planned heading, and altitude. If the guy on the radar screen doesn't like doing his job, maybe he needs a new line of work.

There was an aircraft in distress somewhere inside or near the Class C, as I said in the previous sentence. And he was talking to Approach, not Tower, so he was presumably at a higher altitude.

I don't know about you, but if I was having an emergency, I would want EVERYONE in the area to attempt to accommodate so I can do whatever the heck I need to, and I'd want as much attention from Approach as I needed.

 

[EdFred]

I missed that the emergency carried over to the second sentence as well. I thought they were separate incidents. I'm surprised tower wasn't notified of the emergency and acted accordingly. (Held traffic/gave departure instructions)

 

[docmirror]

I'm waiting to hear what the correct answer is to this requirement to remain on freq as a VFR flight following traffic. I presume you were in class E or G at the time? Not in B or C or D when you made the request?

 

[roncachamp]

I'm waiting to hear what the correct answer is to this requirement to remain on freq as a VFR flight following traffic. I presume you were in class E or G at the time? Not in B or C or D when you made the request?

The correct answer was given on post #3 and a few later posts as well. Where there is no requirement to be in radio contact with ATC one may terminate ATC services without regard to how the controller responds.

 

[MAKG1]

I missed that the emergency carried over to the second sentence as well. I thought they were separate incidents. I'm surprised tower wasn't notified of the emergency and acted accordingly. (Held traffic/gave departure instructions)

I don't know much about what happened, but I think whatever it was had just occurred, between takeoff and handoff (that's about 5 minutes in a 172 following the noise abatement).

 

[Fearless Tower]

The correct answer was given on post #3 and a few later posts as well. Where there is no requirement to be in radio contact with ATC one may terminate ATC services without regard to how the controller responds.

While that may be true, if you terminate service on your own accord without ATC action, they may come looking for you (which is why I linked the phone numbers).

I had an experience with Boston or NY Center on VFR FF once where I lost comms with Center due to altitude and after a few attempts, I switched to 1200 and kept going. I can't remember if I shifted to IAD or stayed on Center freq, but ATC got concerned and kept looking for me - eventually getting ahold of me by relaying through another A/C).

 

[bobmrg]

I'm just guessing, of course, but could it be that the handoff was in progress when you called? It takes place on the screens of the controllers involved, so there is no voice transmission for you to hear. My reasoning is that unraveling a handoff in progress might be more of a hassle than just telling you to stay with ATC.

Bob Gardner

 

[roncachamp]

While that may be true, if you terminate service on your own accord without ATC action, they may come looking for you (which is why I linked the phone numbers).

They might. So what?

I had an experience with Boston or NY Center on VFR FF once where I lost comms with Center due to altitude and after a few attempts, I switched to 1200 and kept going. I can't remember if I shifted to IAD or stayed on Center freq, but ATC got concerned and kept looking for me - eventually getting ahold of me by relaying through another A/C).

That's not the same situation as in the OP. There's not much cause for concern when a pilot leaves the frequency after calling to cancel radar services as he's approaching his destination.

 

[docmirror]

that was more or less "Negative and all VFR aircraft you do no call into me, i will call out to you"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

but what would have been the correct response had I continued my decent and was approaching a point where I would have no longer been able to communicate with Boston Center? Should I have reiterated my cancellation request or just switched to CTAF and landed normally as I had already made my cancellation request?

The correct answer was given on post #3 and a few later posts as well. Where there is no requirement to be in radio contact with ATC one may terminate ATC services without regard to how the controller responds.

Well, yes and no. What would you say, if anything, if told to remain on freq? Just ignore the ATC instructions to remain on freq? I don't care for the 'more or less', I would like to know what the controller said specifically in reply to this aircraft calling to cancel service. i.e. "Boston center, Spamcan 123, cancelling service and freq change to CTAF'. To which center says; 'Spamcan 123, negative don't call me I will call you'. Or wording to that effect.

I guess what I would say in reply is; 'Boston center, Spamcan 123, unable remain on frequency, changing to XXX CTAF, good day'. But - here's the rub, you've signed up for the service, and agreed to the terms and conditions. One of those conditions being that if given an instruction, you better carry it out, or face the wrath(queue Ron L here). Right or wrong, this has been tested and the pilot came out the loser. So what to your respond when instructed to remain on freq and wait for a call FROM them?

 

[SbestCFII]

If you're not IFR or under Radar service in b,c or d airspace, you can just just squawk 1200 and go about your way. Just don,t forget to close a flight plan if you're on one.

 

[Fearless Tower]

That's not the same situation as in the OP. There's not much cause for concern when a pilot leaves the frequency after calling to cancel radar services as he's approaching his destination.

Possibly, but how does he know the controller heard/understood his request?

Most of the times I've heard ATC give that kind of verbal Heisman, the controller was busy and did not hear the request.

 

[Velocity173]

Well, yes and no. What would you say, if anything, if told to remain on freq? Just ignore the ATC instructions to remain on freq? I don't care for the 'more or less', I would like to know what the controller said specifically in reply to this aircraft calling to cancel service. i.e. "Boston center, Spamcan 123, cancelling service and freq change to CTAF'. To which center says; 'Spamcan 123, negative don't call me I will call you'. Or wording to that effect.

I guess what I would say in reply is; 'Boston center, Spamcan 123, unable remain on frequency, changing to XXX CTAF, good day'. But - here's the rub, you've signed up for the service, and agreed to the terms and conditions. One of those conditions being that if given an instruction, you better carry it out, or face the wrath(queue Ron L here). Right or wrong, this has been tested and the pilot came out the loser. So what to your respond when instructed to remain on freq and wait for a call FROM them?

The controller should be transferring the aircraft "at a sufficient distance from the airport to permit the pilot to change to the appropriate frequency for traffic and airport information." If the OP was bearing down on the airport 10 miles out with no termination, I'd call that sufficient distance, especially since the AIM says you should be on the freq 10 miles out.

I agree with above. Controller was in a bad mood and trying to flex his muscle in a situation where he really had no authority. Not even sure why he'd want to hold onto an aircraft that close anyway. Unless he has last minute traffic "N12345, before you go, traffic..." OP requests termination. Get rid of him.

 

[aanderson81]

I'm just guessing, of course, but could it be that the handoff was in progress when you called? It takes place on the screens of the controllers involved, so there is no voice transmission for you to hear. My reasoning is that unraveling a handoff in progress might be more of a hassle than just telling you to stay with ATC.

Bob Gardner

This may be likely as well as the next time they addressed me was to contact Bradley.

 

[roncachamp]

Well, yes and no. What would you say, if anything, if told to remain on freq?

Goodbye.

Just ignore the ATC instructions to remain on freq?

Yes.

I guess what I would say in reply is; 'Boston center, Spamcan 123, unable remain on frequency, changing to XXX CTAF, good day'. But - here's the rub, you've signed up for the service, and agreed to the terms and conditions. One of those conditions being that if given an instruction, you better carry it out, or face the wrath(queue Ron L here).

Wrong. If all you're receiving is flight following the only service you've signed up for is traffic advisories and safety alerts. There are no instructions a controller can issue that would not be in violation of FAA Order 7110.65. A controller can suggest or advise headings, altitudes, routes, etc., but there is nothing he can require you to do. No wrath need be feared by declining any ATC "instruction" while on flight following.

Right or wrong, this has been tested and the pilot came out the loser.

I think that unlikely. If you disagree then please cite a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring an invalid ATC instruction.

So what to your respond when instructed to remain on freq and wait for a call FROM them?

Goodbye.

 

[roncachamp]

Possibly, but how does he know the controller heard/understood his request?.

It's not a request, the pilot is informing the controller that services are being terminated. If the controller replies with something other than "say again", it is reasonable to conclude he heard/understood.

Most of the times I've heard ATC give that kind of verbal Heisman, the controller was busy and did not hear the request.

So the controller didn't hear it. So what?

 

[Velocity173]

Of course there's the whole CC letter about complying with ATC instructions in controlled airspace for VFR aircraft.

 

[Fearless Tower]

So the controller didn't hear it. So what?

Can you just answer a simple question without contradicting yourself?

Previously you said (bold emphasis by me):

There's not much cause for concern when a pilot leaves the frequency after calling to cancel radar services as he's approaching his destination.

Now you say it doesn't matter if he calls or the controller hears/understands it.

 

[Henning]

Over the weekend I was coming back from Maine and was utilizing flight following. I got handed off to Boston Center and was approaching my destination. At about 10-12 miles out I had not been contacted about terminating radar services and frequency changed approved. so I waited for a break and called in canceling radar services and got a reply back that was more or less "Negative and all VFR aircraft you do no call into me, i will call out to you" At this point I was going to be descending in a moment and was a bit fluxored as what to do? Do i call back again canceling radar services or do I say screw it and switch to CTAF and get on the ground. Thankfully a moment or 2 later I got a reply back handing me off to Bradley Approach and instead responded canceling services. But had it been another moment or 2 it quite likely could have been I was too low to cancel services.

I understand this is a bit of a unique circumstance, but what would have been the correct response had I continued my decent and was approaching a point where I would have no longer been able to communicate with Boston Center? Should I have reiterated my cancellation request or just switched to CTAF and landed normally as I had already made my cancellation request?

As long as you are VMC and not in positive control airspace, radar services are just about communications ability and have no impact on your navigation. The controller wanted to keep you on his radio in case he needed to call you. I assume he knew where you were going, so he's accounting for that, you just keep it coming and stay with him until he releases, or you come to the airport environment. The controller likely sees the traffic, or lack of, at your destination.

It's been really rare that I was asked not to sign off yet, but when it happens, I just cooperate and stay on with them. There is nothing I think they can do about it if I just go 1200 and CTAF as long as I'm VMC, but obviously the controller wants to maintain contact a bit longer, so I figure it's likely in my best interest as well.

 

[docmirror]

Goodbye.

Yes.

Wrong. If all you're receiving is flight following the only service you've signed up for is traffic advisories and safety alerts. There are no instructions a controller can issue that would not be in violation of FAA Order 7110.65. A controller can suggest or advise headings, altitudes, routes, etc., but there is nothing he can require you to do. No wrath need be feared by declining any ATC "instruction" while on flight following.

I think that unlikely. If you disagree then please cite a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring a valid ATC instruction.

Goodbye.

Sorry, I'm not going to go searching for the Ron L post which references the pilot who didn't want to follow ATC instruction out in class E or G. It's out there, but not important enough to make me go hunting.

I guess I'll just stick with my current plan and never call for FF. That has worked well for me for 35 years. No call, no instruction, no problem.

 

[roncachamp]

Can you just answer a simple question without contradicting yourself?

Previously you said (bold emphasis by me):

Now you say it doesn't matter if he calls or the controller hears/understands it.

There's no contradiction. Pilots in this situation commonly leave the frequency without saying a word. It's not a big deal.

 

[Henning]

Sorry, I'm not going to go searching for the Ron L post which references the pilot who didn't want to follow ATC instruction out in class E or G. It's out there, but not important enough to make me go hunting.

I guess I'll just stick with my current plan and never call for FF. That has worked well for me for 35 years. No call, no instruction, no problem.

Really? I use FF nearly all the time. The only major flying I do without it is Ag or Pipeline. In the top 3 of aviation resource values to me especially when flying in unfamiliar territory. They never issue me instructions or control my navigation outside of giving cues and asking if I have something in sight unless I ask for it. The moment I say "Unfamiliar, could I get a vector?", I get a vector; done.

ATC/FF has been my "magenta line" many times even before magenta lines existed. I've never had a bad experience with ATC, even when they would like to take me around a Bravo and I decide to go tight inside and underneath. As long as they can call me and ask me to verify "traffic in sight" they are always cool with it. When I was going from Maine to Ft Lauderdale and they had the expanded P-40 which I wasn't except rudimentarily familiar with and only showed as the regular P-40 on the G-500. I just called them up, "I think I'm okay on this line but not sure. If I keep on this heading to 'xxxxx' I'm not going to get an F-18 for a wingman am I?" Dude laughed, "You should be good, I'll keep you clear of the F-18s"

 

[roncachamp]

Sorry, I'm not going to go searching for the Ron L post which references the pilot who didn't want to follow ATC instruction out in class E or G. It's out there, but not important enough to make me go hunting.

I misspoke earlier, meant to write, "If you disagree then please cite a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring an invalid ATC instruction."

You wouldn't find one if you searched and Levy never found one either. The case he's cited was of a pilot not adhering to valid instructions issued by a control tower in Class G airspace. He has never cited a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring an invalid ATC instruction. The FAA doesn't go after pilots who decline to follow instructions it doesn't want controllers to issue.

 

[docmirror]

I misspoke earlier, meant to write, "If you disagree then please cite a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring an invalid ATC instruction."

You wouldn't find one if you searched and Levy never found one either. The case he's cited was of a pilot not adhering to valid instructions issued by a control tower in Class G airspace. He has never cited a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring an invalid ATC instruction. The FAA doesn't go after pilots who decline to follow instructions it doesn't want controllers to issue.

Appreciate the clarification.

Here's my last take on the deal. When the CC is the arbiter of what 'valid' and 'invalid' is WRT an instruction, I'm not risking having it not go my way, and then spending many, many thousands of dollars to get it to a court outside of the CC discretion. And yes, I know that the chances of a controller raising a hassle are pretty small, and the chances that it will result in a pilot action are small, but there's no risk in leaving the phone off the hook.

At some point, this 'voluntary' FF service is going to be mandatory. It's coming, and anyone who thinks it isn't wasn't around for all the previous restrictions.

 

[Palmpilot]

I misspoke earlier, meant to write, "If you disagree then please cite a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring an invalid ATC instruction."

You wouldn't find one if you searched and Levy never found one either. The case he's cited was of a pilot not adhering to valid instructions issued by a control tower in Class G airspace. He has never cited a case where a pilot came out the loser for ignoring an invalid ATC instruction. The FAA doesn't go after pilots who decline to follow instructions it doesn't want controllers to issue.

I thought the case he usually cited was a tower in class D airspace.

 

[bflynn]

Descend at your discretion - you're being monitored, not directed.

Assuming you've been directed to remain on their frequency - 5 to 10 miles out:
Big Boy Approach, Bugsmasher 12345 at 3000 descending, airport in sight, unable to remain this frequency, changing to XYZ CTAF. They ought to be glad to let you go.

If I get back "Stay with me", I'd probably have to ask why, expect to lose comms due to altitude. Or reply back with just a straight out Unable.

 

[EdFred]

I thought the case he usually cited was a tower in class D airspace.

He did, in true Ron style. Quote a case that has nothing to with the situation presented and declare himself king.

 

[bflynn]

I think the one item that everyone is thinking about is probably the Karas chief counsel opinion, I haven't seen it linked here yet. This is the one which states that a VFR pilot must comply with ATC instructions when they are talking to them.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2013/karas - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf

The question is whether "stay on this frequency and don't call me" can be a valid instruction if it impacts the safety of flight. Keep in mind that I'm thinking of my home field (non-towered) where having 5 aircraft coming and going is not unheard of. Approaching here without talking on the CTAF is more dangerous than listening and self-announcing.

Regardless of outcome, an ASRS form would be appropriate.

 

[Unit74]

All I can add is that if it happened to me, I would have replied back, "I am canceling Flight Following and changing frequency, good day" and moved on. Unless you are required to have a clearance, there is nothing that mandates you to retain ATC services.

Sounds like the guy was pretty busy and just couldn't handle the traffic load.