Controller incorrect?

Dave S. said:
Incorrect kemo sabe.
Also in TRSA with participating aircraft AND all the way to the runway in class d airports. Green between is separation. ATC is required to provide that separation. It’s mandatory for ATC and not workload based.
Click to expand...
Eh? Separation is not provided in class D airports to VFR. ATC doesn't even frequently have any way of doing that. Sequencing is not separation.
 
flyingron said:
Eh? Separation is not provided in class D airports to VFR. ATC doesn't even frequently have any way of doing that. Sequencing is not separation.
Click to expand...

He said TRSA provides separation to participating VFR aircraft, which is correct.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Someone named Hicks who founded the town.
Click to expand...

In that case, I definitely don't want to hear about the origins of Manasses.

Interesting thread. My experiences with ATC have been universally helpful around SYR/ROC/ALB, but I've never flown near NYC/Long Island. I can imagine things being a little more terse down there. I can still remember, as a student pilot years ago endorsed to solo out of SYR, a female controller who I recognized from earlier flights told me to "turn left downwind 33" while I was doing some pattern work... which, as a student pilot with MANY more years driving than flying, I heard as meaning, "Make a left turn and end up on the downwind leg of 33." I got confused, because to end up downwind 33, I'd have to make a right turn. Soo, stupid green me got on the mic, "Ummm.. I need to make a right turn to do that, not a left turn." She laughed, and very nicely said, "Bugsmasher 2468, yes, make a right turn to end up on a LEFT DOWNWIND for 33." Fifteen years later, I can still remember how nicely she treated a green pilot. I love ATC.
 
dmspilot said:
He said TRSA provides separation to participating VFR aircraft, which is correct.
Click to expand...

Class C is left out of this latest sequence of posts. @Shawn says it’s only in B. @Dave S. adds in TRSA, but only to participating aircraft and D. @flyingron says not in D. This is true, there is no separation criteria to airborne aircraft in D. But a TRSA does not exclude the D airspace within it, so TRSA separation does continue within the D. Separation is provided to VFR’s in Class C also. Not between VFR’s, but VFR’s are separated from IFR’s.
 
Last edited:
dmspilot said:
He said TRSA provides separation to participating VFR aircraft, which is correct.
Click to expand...
No, he did not. He said "AND all the way to the runway in class d airports." It was oddly worded if he was referring to only class D's inside the TRSA. Frankly, there's no difference with the TRSA embedded class D and any other part of its surface area.
 
@MuseChaser In 2001 I was in high school and did a job shadow at SYR ATCT. The nicest girl there was slicing up a roast in the break room and offered me a sandwich. I saw her up in the tower later that day and she was still exceptionally charming as she explained to me how they managed flow control into JFK, ORD, etc....It had to be the same controller. Not that it matters, but to my 18 year-old eyes, she was really pretty too. That day was one of the major factors in me becoming an ATC.
 
Jmcmanna said:
@MuseChaser In 2001 I was in high school and did a job shadow at SYR ATCT. The nicest girl there was slicing up a roast in the break room and offered me a sandwich. I saw her up in the tower later that day and she was still exceptionally charming as she explained to me how they managed flow control into JFK, ORD, etc....It had to be the same controller. Not that it matters, but to my 18 year-old eyes, she was really pretty too. That day was one of the major factors in me becoming an ATC.
Click to expand...

So uh, the big and little heads collaborated in your career choice:D
 
This raises an interesting, related scenario. Some Class Cs have their corresponding approach control handle transitions through the surface area, but some don't. KMDW and KBUR take handoffs for transitioning aircraft, but I've seen lots of KSNA and KONT traffic handled by SCT.

Back on topic:

I'm fairly surprised N90 doesn't have a letter agreement with each of the Class Ds they serve. You'd think that would be a thing for them, especially given the lower level transition flying that goes on there all the time, especially on LownG Eyelind when people transition Kennedy. This controller sounds like someone who either didn't want to pick up the phone or didn't understand the regulations properly, and really thought they couldn't pick up your transition for you.

luvflyin said:
So uh, the big and little heads collaborated in your career choice:D
Click to expand...

Though we're not sure which was big or little, at the time :p
 
Minshall said:
There is another way to interpret the controller's comments ... he may have been asking for your intentions so that he could respond appropriately. From your chart, you were on the edge of D-space. If your intention was to remain to the south (clear of D-space), then he just keeps you on FF and doesn't bother picking up the phone. If you intention was to enter D-space, then he'd have to do something more active (call tower or terminate you). I don't see anything in the regulations that prevents him from asking your intentions so that he can support you as best he can.
Cheers
Click to expand...
Good point. I've flown the exact flight a number of times, FRG-MTP, with and without FF. Never at 1500 MSL, always above Gabreski's Class D, so I was never asked that question, which makes me believe the controller was inquiring about his intentions and probably didn't expect or like his reply :rolleyes:

jordane93 said:
This is why I’m a little a confused. If they’re too busy, they should terminate me. All I got was, “hey N12345 are you going to stay clear of FOK class D?” Which I then clarified and said, “aren’t you supposed to take care of coordinating with tower?” I never got radar termination. Or maybe they’re not too busy to give me FF but are too busy to call up the tower and coordinate a transition.
Click to expand...

I've also conducted a few solo practice flights in that area with FF. The controller was a true asset providing traffic advisories in such a busy location.
Took a few aerobatics lessons out of Brookhaven (HWV) a few years ago, doing loops and rolls just south of the beach, right where that blue course line in drawn in Post#1 :eek:
NOT a good place to be without ATC!
 
Last edited:
jordane93 said:
I do this route pretty often exactly as flown at 1500ft and this is the first I’ve heard to stay clear or ask tower for a transition while on flight following. Maybe the controller was new:dunno:
Click to expand...
Or maybe he was a veteran. I'm a veteran on my job (a different kind of controller). Senior Systems Controller (electrical) and honestly, if some young kid attempted to tell me how to do my job, ("aren't you supposed to...), (had a few trainees like that over the years)...I'd be slightly annoyed as well. Just sayin:D
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top