Control Tower Closure Info

EppyGA;112o2014 said:
OMG, must be airplanes crashing there all the time!! :D

I know, sheesh.

Ryan tower is on the list (10 South). Guy in the avq restaurant is convinced the whole Ryan airport, including the Ryan restaurant will close if they close the tower. I noted that the avq (Marana) airport wasn't closed and the restaurant did pretty darn well in spite of not having a tower. He nodded and said "huh."
 
Same as it works everywhere else. I've been the nordo aeronca sharing a pattern with a gulfstream, and I've been the 4-engine turboprop sharing the pattern with nordo cropdusters flying nonstandard patterns.
Hi,

Been there, done that - got the T-Shirt.

It's just a pity that these "maximum impact" decisions are being made.

I spend a bit of time at Craig Municipal and am sure it will not be as safe without the tower.

Regards
John
 
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Hi,

Been there, done that - got the T-Shirt.

It's just a pity that these "maximum impact" decisions are being made.

Regards
John
I'd say it's a blessing in disguise. The unitiated think it will be "maximum impact" but really it will just serve as another small example of how unimportant the government is to people's daily lives.
 
I'd say it's a blessing in disguise. The unitiated think it will be "maximum impact" but really it will just serve as another small example of how unimportant the government is to people's daily lives.

Exactly.

But that won't atop them from playing it the hilt.
 
But that won't atop them from playing it to the hilt.
Hi Jay,

How's this for irony at Craig? They are demolishing the "viewing deck" and replacing it with a monument (costs of which I don't know) less than 40 yards from the tower.

Right under their noses so to speak. Talk about rubbing it in.

Regards
John
 
Let me be fair before I start by saying that I work in one of the FCTs in Texas. Even though mine is not currently on any known closure list, we are close to the busiest single-runway airport in the nation with over 160k ops per year, this whole sequester fiasco is more than ridiculous. I've noticed that there are some interesting opinions on here.

Just to name a few...
1) The FAA and ATC are useless and annoying.
2) Most FCT controllers are retired military and are double dipping.
3) The controllers at closed towers will get back pay.
4) Keep the cuts and save the money, Helps the national deficit/ debt.
5) Some nonsense about $77/hr pay for the slow towers.
6) Using AIRNAV statistics during your research for daily operations.
7) There are CTAF airports that do the same or more operations.
8) The ATC service will be handled by other towers in the area.
9) The airport is busy on the weekends, just staff it then.
10) Wouldn't affect IFR procedures (dep./arr.).

And the list goes on... So shall my response to clear up a few things from the other side of the cockpit. (Numbers below correlate with the original phrase from above, btw)

1) Really? You're an idiot. Airports like DFW and ATL void that argument automatically, but we're talking about lower volume towers as a general rule. Saying something like that makes one believe you're the pilot ATC cringes to hear on frequency and takes one for the team by not filing the needed pilot deviation forms almost every time you go burn holes in the sky. Enough on that little nugget.

2) True. A large percentage of FCT controllers are retired military. There are also prior military, like myself (USMC), that didn't serve the full 20 and retired FAA controllers. Retired military controllers MIGHT bring home a whopping 1300/mo versus retired FAA, which ranges from 3500-7000+/mo. Since most people retire from the services before 40, the FCT program is perfect for those guys. Overall the prior/ retired military covers about 65-80% of all FCT controllers. I'm probably biased, but as a taxpayer and having worked with both and seen the skill level differential between military/FAA, I'm pretty sure we overpaid for FAA controllers.

3) Backpay? Not a chance. When these FCT towers close its "good luck and thanks for not killing anyone while you were here." Even the FAAs union, NATCA, has informed them the furloughed loss of pay will not be refunded. Sequester differs greatly from govt shutdowns in the past.

4) I'm all about a smaller government and trimming the rabid fraud/ waste occurring daily. (Thanks to the Churches of Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, Beck, etc, that I attend on a daily basis. Lol.) Closing nearly all of the FCTs in the nation (almost 200 of the 250+) is near comical as a cost saving tactic. The only thing tactical about these proposed cuts is that a union, NATCA, has a say on how taxpayers have been and will continue to get screwed for generations to come. FCTs control nearly 25% of the reported operations annually on about 1% of the FAA budget. Capitalism at its finest. Oops, did I say the dirty C word? Maybe that's why Obummer and his homeboys have targeted a program that has been successful for nearly 30 years. Especially after the FAA's own Inspector General just completed a report last year praising the safety and cost efficiency (1/5 on avg.) of FCT vs FAA. I mean if your not going to listen to or heed the advise of your own IG, dissolve the department and save even more. When you have 4-8 guys with an average work experience of 25+ years doing the same or more work than 15-30+ (avg. FAA experience is down around 12-16) at a similar airport, it just makes sense.

5) Again, savings are good. Yet from above you can see this is one of the few Gov programs that have actually ever worked. $77/hr is your max base rate for a Center controller. The bulk of the controllers that will lose their jobs make about 1/2 that. Want savings? Take a chunk out of the nearly $1.2T every year wasted on the "baby momma, smart phone toting, got my nails did, free rent, buy my food with an EBT card and pay cash for cigs, lotto and a 40" WELFARE system.

6) AIRNAV is good for fuel prices. Period. If you want to do some actual research on traffic operations at a certain airport, go to the FAA website, search ATADS, then follow the directions. But even seeing a daily or annual number of ops says nothing of a tower's need based on a/c performance differences, different levels pilot experience, emergency assistance, saves (preventing wheels up landings on a daily basis), weather conditions affecting op totals, etc.

7) I'm sure there are busy airports without a tower. There's one just outside my airspace. NMAC (near mid-air collision) Central is one of its nicknames, or home of the airspace violator extraordinaire. Yet compared to the over 600 towers in the nation, there's no comparison at all.

8) If you think actual ATC services will be provided remotely from neighboring facilities I've got some ocean front property in AZ you might be interested in. Got an emergency and need immediate help when you land, but don't have a controller up close and personal to assist in coordinating the efforts because the tower was closed? Sorry. You just totaled your BE-58 due to a gear up landing? Sorry again. You mean that solo student didn't know his radio wasn't working but was sitting on the runway at night, with no lights on, when you landed on him? Sorry.

9) Weekend staffing? Sure why not. Good luck helping the city find a liability insurance company to cover those operations. Not to mention having current, FAA qualified controllers who would take that gig. Qualifications for controllers are based on facility and there are currency minimums that must be followed. Can you be dual qualified? Yes. I was last year when I helped another facility in the area due to a manning issue. Would the FAA do it? Who knows. I do know that if OSH closes, the temporary teams from around the nation will still cover Air Venture in July. They run 2400 ops a day around that time.

10) Sure it will operate just like a CTAF Ap to get IFR clearances and releases for departure. Good luck waiting for that release at airports that host special events, for example Arlington, Tx, during a Cowboys game weekend. They'll run 200-300 jets, all IFR out of that place before and after a game. The usual 2-3 minute release time just went to 1-2 hours. One in/ one out and no tower to assist with visual separation. Sorry the cost of JET-A wasted would have covered the operating expense of that closed tower for that month.

Now that the rant is complete, what could have and should have been done in this closure situation? Are there towers that could close with little to no impact? Absolutely. The combined number is probably closer to less than 40 in the nation. How about this...

Based upon the... recent IG report from the FAA, the FCT average experience levels, cost efficiency (even with the contract companies pulling a moderate profit), current success at higher level airports (mine ranks in the top 80 for total ops out of 600 towers) and the overwhelming user feedback... A larger contract presence could safely and effectively provide all needed ATC services, save money and solve the current manning shortage problems of the FAA. It costs from $300-500,000/yr. for each FCT (4-8 employees total) as compared to it's FAA counterpart (op count and airport configuration) which is run by 15-40 controllers, supervisors, management and administrative personnel which payrolls between $1.8-5M (not to mention the golden tickets of superb health insurance cost, a lucrative pension for life and other excesses on the taxpayers dime). Instead of closing almost 200 towers and endangering the flying community to save approximately $60-75M, you could contract out 150 or more FAA towers and save in excess of $1B annually. Yeah, that's $1,000,000,000. Then by transferring the excess personnel to the larger facilities (tower, approach, center), the shortage gets solved in the process.

So lets see... you save a ton more money, no jobs lost, no furloughs, everyone keeps their towers, FAA staffing problem goes away, etc. The solution is too simple, so based on our fearless leaders on the Hill and public-sector union thugs (that's a whole other saga), it probably wouldn't work.

Common sense really needs to make a comeback. Nearly 1/3 of all towers in the nation are on a list to close. Will it actually happen? Who knows. Yet if it does, good luck out there. Any damage, death or tragedy that follows is solely upon the Socialist In Charge and his cronies sitting in Our House (which is still closed for tours btw) in DC.

Good night!
 
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DuPage Airport (KDPA) in the Chicago area is an FAA tower on the hit list. At a meeting tonight, the airport director stated that, should the feds not fund the tower, the airport authority would pay to staff it. He stated unequivocally that it is NOT going to close. Wonder if other municipalities will do the same?
 
This double talk by unions really make me laugh..... Back during the last ATC strike , PATCO didn't give a crap about the traveling public and had their rank and file go on strike..... Now they have done a 180 and are screaming bloody murder that towers are going to be closed....... UNIONS are greedy, two faced ****oles..... YMMV..:rolleyes:

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PATCO Questions Contract Tower Closings


Says Air Safety Will Be Seriously Jeopardized

The Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization (PATCO) issued a statement Thursday following Wednesday's vote in the U.S. Senate on the Continuing Resolution that will keep the government operating through the end of September which did not include an amendment to preserve the contract tower program.
"The decision by Secretary of Transportation, Ray LaHood and FAA administrator Michael Huerta to close down over 173 Federal Contract Towers (FCT’s) due to sequestration is insane, unjustified, absurd and needs to be stopped," the statement says. "The FCT program has been around for almost 30 years and has been lauded by the DOT’s Inspector General as highly efficient, cost effective and safe.
"The Air Traffic Controllers that man these towers are highly professional, and meet or exceed the same jobs requirements as FAA controllers. They provide a critical service at their respective community airports to ensure that "air safety" is the number one priority.
"Contrary to what the FAA says, the closing of these towers will seriously jeopardize "air safety" and the overall efficiency of the National Airspace System (NAS). The "No Margin for Error" slogan is out the door because the control towers will not be manned.
"Beyond the tower closure, the rippling effect will cause confusion, serious delays and loss of revenues to local airports and the business community as a whole.
Where is the FAA's sanity on this issue?," the statement concludes
 
Well, after reading that wonderful post I am now 100% convinced that every control tower in America must remain open. The outstanding government employees in these towers deserve our undiminished financial support, because without them we will all die. :rolleyes:

*sigh* I learned to fly at a little strip in WI, many moons ago. For the first several years I actively avoided controlled airspace, because I so rarely had to deal with them.

This proved not to be difficult, as the vast majority of airports in America are uncontrolled. Over time, as I gained confidence, I came to appreciate how bone-simple it was to fly into a towered field, and we simply flew everywhere, from coast to coast. Been doing it now for 19 years.

Over time, I started to realize that many of the control towers we dealt with were there for one reason: Prestige. Some local congressman had made a big score by attaching funding to an otherwise valuable piece of legislation, and voila! His home airport had a spanking new control tower, staffed with fawning constituents.

Was it needed? Of course not! Just like the toll collectors on the Chicago tollway (who were only supposed to be there until the road was paid for) these were patronage jobs. Just another way for the elected official to "bring home the bacon".

So, places like Kenosha, WI, and Victoria, TX have towers staffed with the most bored people in America.

Now, we are told, these are essential to the national airspace system, and without them we will all be placed at risk. Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

Then, there's another class of tower that should be eliminated: The dying city tower. A great example of this would be Janesville, WI, a former General Motors town that once sported airline service. Dubuque, IA and Oshkosh, WI, (other than during AirVenture) are more examples of this.

These are just the towers that casually come to mind, in states I am familiar with. I'm sure we can all rattle off two or three in each of our home states that are equally meritless from the standpoint of traffic.

Our country is in dire straits. We are drowning in debt, and stealing our kids' future to pay for it. As citizens it is irresponsible to defend every dime of spending on our beloved aviation, when we KNOW there exists this kind of fluff in the system.

Shut 'em down -- and demand that every government department eliminate THEIR fluff, too.
 
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Good post and points made. There is massive waste in the majority of the entire government. Like I'd stated before a number could be closed with no adverse effect. Yet there's ways to improve the tower programs throughout the nation. Also, if the communities involved have the need/want of the services, let them absorb a share of the cost. I've never been a fan of the full funding from the Fed.

Just my two cents in response.
 
So, how is this going to affect the towered field landings when the nearest control tower is hundreds of miles away for students?

My students will now be going to FMN for their initial dual/solo xc..More expensive? Sure, but I suppose we'll make due.
 
149 towers on the list to "close." These towers will no longer receive federal funding after April 7. If local funding is available they could remain open with no change except who cuts the check. I know of a few personally whose city's have already agreed to pick up the bill. Well, here it is.

http://www.aaae.org/?e=showFile&l=TDDZKA
 
149 towers on the list to "close." These towers will no longer receive federal funding after April 7. If local funding is available they could remain open with no change except who cuts the check. I know of a few personally whose city's have already agreed to pick up the bill. Well, here it is.

http://www.aaae.org/?e=showFile&l=TDDZKA

There goes my home airport (Ryan) and several we use for training during cross countries near Phoenix.
 
There goes my home airport (Ryan) and several we use for training during cross countries near Phoenix.

I would not give up..... The grand plan of the feds is to put a tower on the closure list... Then they will wait till the local guvmint steps up to fund it... Once that happens the feds will say " see, you don't need us at all"..
 
Based on the $1.2T we spend in welfare each year, I'd love for the Feds to adopt that mindset. Lol. Oh wait, then how would a democrat ever win another election?

I can dream can't I?
 
I would not give up..... The grand plan of the feds is to put a tower on the closure list... Then they will wait till the local guvmint steps up to fund it... Once that happens the feds will say " see, you don't need us at all"..

If that came with a discount on what the locals were sending them, that'd be a great deal.
 
I would not give up..... The grand plan of the feds is to put a tower on the closure list... Then they will wait till the local guvmint steps up to fund it... Once that happens the feds will say " see, you don't need us at all"..

That's the way it should be. Nonapproach control towers should be operated by the same entity that operates the airport; city, county, state, etc.
 
149 towers on the list to "close." These towers will no longer receive federal funding after April 7. If local funding is available they could remain open with no change except who cuts the check. I know of a few personally whose city's have already agreed to pick up the bill. Well, here it is.

http://www.aaae.org/?e=showFile&l=TDDZKA

The FAA's press release has one closure list and two lists of towers that will stay open. There are a bunch of towers that were on the proposed closure list that are not on any of today's lists. Today's press release appears to only cover contract towers. Have you heard when the list of FAA towers to be closed will be released?
 
You guys still think these towers are going to be closed?

This is political theater, people. Obama and the Dems aren't going to risk losing some of their highest-paid, most visible supporters. Here is my prediction:

1. Some truly lame towers will be closed, permanently. We can all name half a dozen completely inexplicable towers that could go away tomorrow without harm. This is good.

2. The rest may be closed for a few weeks, while Obama let's the hue and cry rise to a crescendo. Close calls will be documented. Pilots will be interviewed.

3. At it's peak, if Congress hasn't caved in, Obama will sweep in with executive orders, in the name of safety. There will be lots of flags and children behind him as he signs the order, saving the day.

4. All controllers will receive back pay, having been given a generous paid vacation.

I hope I'm wrong, but I give it 70/30 that this is how it goes down.

Awesome! Not children, but pilots and pax who almost "died" in horrible midair collisions.
 
The FAA towers will take over a year to close due to negotiations with the union. Which is about par. There were 40 or so listed. Also, there are 16 towers not listed today that are cost share, 60% city pay. These will likely close at end of fiscal year.
 
I feel sorry for aspiring commercial pilots. It's going to be tough to find a place to do 10 night TOs and ldgs at a controlled field.
 
Well, after reading that wonderful post I am now 100% convinced that every control tower in America must remain open. The outstanding government employees in these towers deserve our undiminished financial support, because without them we will all die. :rolleyes:
No government employees invovlved--these are all contract towers.
 
I feel sorry for aspiring commercial pilots. It's going to be tough to find a place to do 10 night TOs and ldgs at a controlled field.

I'd like to think they would consider amending 61.129 if it became wide spread enough...
 
I feel sorry for aspiring commercial pilots. It's going to be tough to find a place to do 10 night TOs and ldgs at a controlled field.

How about the three landings student pilots have to do? If they close JQF the closest within 25nm is CLT. I bet they would love to have a few students in the pattern...lol
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsuffa
"Any traffic in the pattern please advise...

....

Oh, please tell me you were joking and forgot the sarcastic smiley!

The phrase equivalent to fingernails on a chalkboard...
 
I feel sorry for aspiring commercial pilots. It's going to be tough to find a place to do 10 night TOs and ldgs at a controlled field.
gimme me a break. These people aren't flying around in 80mph champs. Every state in the country is still drowning in control towers within easy range of most any plane on the rental line.
 
The price of gas goes up another buck we won't need any of the controllers anymore.
 
gimme me a break. These people aren't flying around in 80mph champs. Every state in the country is still drowning in control towers within easy range of most any plane on the rental line.

Yeah...cuz we're absolutely drowning here even with half the towers closing in the state :rolleyes:
 
The price of gas goes up another buck we won't need any of the controllers anymore.

Sad but true statement. I thought one of the reasons aviation fuel was so high was because of a built in tax for us GA folk to support te air traffic control services? I don't imagine that "tax" is going to go away do to the closures. One can hope though right?!?!
 
Yeah...cuz we're absolutely drowning here even with half the towers closing in the state :rolleyes:
California? Yes I'd say so. How far do you have to go to hit a class D C or B ?
 
California? Yes I'd say so. How far do you have to go to hit a class D C or B ?

It depends on where you are. Some parts of the state are pretty remote.
 
It depends on where you are. Some parts of the state are pretty remote.
Given the original complaint, I assume these "pretty remote" parts are flight training mecca's and were saturated with class D airspace prior to the budget cuts ?
 
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