Agreed....
Contacting Ground
- Thread starter drgwentzel
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Agreed....
MikeELP
Pattern Altitude
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Mike Bruening
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
So, reading all this, it seems that the DPE can selectively pink-slip a student for:
- failing to run an after-landing flow/checklist until parked (“Checklist usage” being a special emphasis area)
- Using an after-landing checklist rather than a flow (executing checklist in a manner that increases workload at critical time, per PTS)
- running the after-landing flow/checklist while taxiing (reduced awareness during taxi operation, SRM and situational awareness being a special emphasis area per PTS); or
- contacting ground after running a flow/checklist, even if done quickly (failure to “immediately” contact ground per AIM)
And that is the kicker...
Small plane lands and just barely clears the runway edge,, Stops to read his checklist.. Meanwhile the next plane to land is a 757 who's wings overhang the runway edge... All the while tower thought the small plane would NOT stop and piddle......
I still contend... Get you ass off the runway and then taxiway and only then start your checklist items......
For instance.. go to any big airport and watch the heavies come and go.. They NEVER stop till they get to the gate......
And I bet their after landing checklist is larger then most GA planes entire POH...
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jsstevens
And that is the kicker...
Small plane lands and just barely clears the runway edge,, Stops to read his checklist.. Meanwhile the next plane to land is a 757 who's wings overhang the runway edge... All the while tower thought the small plane would NOT stop and piddle......
I still contend... Get you ass off the runway and then taxiway and only then start your checklist items......
For instance.. go to any big airport and watch the heavies come and go.. They NEVER stop till they get to the gate......
I don't think anybody advocated stopping before crossing the hold line, just stopping after to run a short checklist. It's not impacting the runway ops except in the case where there is only one convenient exit and they take to long for the plane behind.
Airliners have crew of two to run their checklist while taxiing.
Don't forget the original discussion was a student on his or her checkride with a DPE sitting right seat watching to see that they followed the checklist.
How we do it after a few hundred hours in simple planes is probably faster and smoother. I know I am. And you won't have to wait for me. But I'm not a student on a checkride either.
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
And that is the kicker...
Small plane lands and just barely clears the runway edge,, Stops to read his checklist.. Meanwhile the next plane to land is a 757 who's wings overhang the runway edge... All the while tower thought the small plane would NOT stop and piddle......
I still contend... Get you ass off the runway and then taxiway and only then start your checklist items......
For instance.. go to any big airport and watch the heavies come and go.. They NEVER stop till they get to the gate......
At my home airport, the required procedure is to clear the runway, come to a full stop in the short perpendicular taxiway between the runway and the parallel taxiway, and then call ground.
If you cleared the runway exit boundary and kept rolling onto the parallel taxiway like you're an airliner, you'd probably end up head-to-head with somebody else that ground already has going the opposite direction on that same taxiway.
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jsstevens
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
A question for the controllers:
"Clear for takeoff" - instructs pilot not on rwy that the rwy is his and he's cleared to use it for takeoff. Pilot gets this after he says he's ready, so controller doesn't expect pilot to stop on the rwy (with the exception of a pilot doing a short field takeoff where he sets brakes and runs up for a couple seconds.)
Then, after landing: Controller tells pilot "Taxi Bravo to parking, monitor ground." That, from the discussion already, doesn't seem to imply "...when you get finished with your checklist." So that command has as much of a "get moving" urgency as a "cleared for takeoff"?
edit: yeah, of course it does. Duh. But we do have the option of delaying prior to takeoff because we aren't ready, so we hold short. What's the "not ready for taxi" equivalent? Like when I've dropped my taxi diagram, or whatever?
"Clear for takeoff" - instructs pilot not on rwy that the rwy is his and he's cleared to use it for takeoff. Pilot gets this after he says he's ready, so controller doesn't expect pilot to stop on the rwy (with the exception of a pilot doing a short field takeoff where he sets brakes and runs up for a couple seconds.)
Then, after landing: Controller tells pilot "Taxi Bravo to parking, monitor ground." That, from the discussion already, doesn't seem to imply "...when you get finished with your checklist." So that command has as much of a "get moving" urgency as a "cleared for takeoff"?
edit: yeah, of course it does. Duh. But we do have the option of delaying prior to takeoff because we aren't ready, so we hold short. What's the "not ready for taxi" equivalent? Like when I've dropped my taxi diagram, or whatever?
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Agreed...
Was the non-factory checklist approved by CAP NHQ? If not, then the instructor was following CAPR 60-1 section 2-1.n.
I just want to know if the DPE actually told the student he failed the ground reference maneuver *at the time of the maneuver*, or if he made that part up later.
B17Rex
Pre-takeoff checklist
At my home airport, KMYF, once we land, tower will instruct us to exit the runway onto the first available taxiway, then contact ground once across the hold short line. If we cross the hold short and continue taxiing without a taxi clearance, we get a stern reminder from ground to get a taxi clearance before continuing. Because of this, I was taught to cross the hold short, stop, switch to ground frequency, do my after landing checklist quickly, then call up ground for my taxi clearance.
I think the people who are advocating one way and one way only aren't taking into account there could be different procedures at different airports. Just my 2 cents, but more likely worth 2 pesos.
-Brian
I think the people who are advocating one way and one way only aren't taking into account there could be different procedures at different airports. Just my 2 cents, but more likely worth 2 pesos.
-Brian
MAKG1
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According to some instructors -- some of them quite senior -- there aren't any approved checklists, even the ones on the CAWG site made for each tail number. It's true that none of them bear signatures, though clearly someone has gone through the effort of making them.
According to other instructors, those CAWG checklists are fine. They still have the same faults the factory ones do (except for excessive physical size) because they are compact reprints of the factory checklists.
Instructors aren't as standardized as CAP wants to think they are.
Same here in Jackson Hole... Tower will always give me taxi instructions on my rollout while still on the runway.. :Ie: " 801BH, turn left alpha2, taxi to park /to your hangar, monitor ground".. I have my game plan long before I even get off the runway....
I guess my question is......
What does the FAA require for this phase of flight /taxi? or is this stop, read a checklist ,an instructor option ???
MAKG1
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What does the FAA require for this phase of flight /taxi? or is this stop, read a checklist ,an instructor option ???
The FAA requires the PIC to be responsible for safety. Cleanup can be a safety issue as we all saw a month or so ago when a 150 crashed after trying to take off with full flap after landing. And at high altitude, proper leaning on the ground is also very important if a takeoff is to follow. The OP is a student, so this is quite likely.
If the PIC feels distraction is too much of a risk, it's the PIC's call to stop.
Not silently, of course, but no student should ever be told to do whatever Tower says without question.
In the absence of a taxi clearance, stopping clear of the hold short line is required at a towered airport. Sometimes, it's really stupid. At KRHV, you can spit from the hold short line to the edge of the movement area, but to move that 20 feet, you need a taxi clearance.
Yup.. Been doing that for 35 years.. It is the tower / ground, controls sandbox and I respect that.. Always have, always will...
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
When I instructed, I taught my students that a check list is more of a reminder list and not a to do list. If they want to do more than the list, usually not a problem. If they want to do the check list items, then pull the check list to see if everything is done, then fine. I also had my students stop all movement (unless it causes a problem) before doing the after landing check.
I had the pleasure of having the same examiner for private, instrument, SE commercial and ME commercial rides. At times he would talk a little too much and I would tell him I need you to be quiet for a minute. He never complained.
Just curious, how many piston folks here do a mag check before engine(s) shut down? Not a mag drop check, just shut off the mags for a split second to check that the mags really are dead after the the engine(s) stop and the switches are turned off.
I had the pleasure of having the same examiner for private, instrument, SE commercial and ME commercial rides. At times he would talk a little too much and I would tell him I need you to be quiet for a minute. He never complained.
Just curious, how many piston folks here do a mag check before engine(s) shut down? Not a mag drop check, just shut off the mags for a split second to check that the mags really are dead after the the engine(s) stop and the switches are turned off.
roncachamp
Final Approach
I made that a habit when I began using an Armstrong starter.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think sometimes people forget what it was like to learn to fly. If you do not teach a student from day one to run the after-landing checklist immediately they will struggle to remember to do any of the after landing tasks all throughout their training.
It's perfectly acceptable for a new pilot to spend 15 seconds running a checklist after they clear the runway before calling ground. As they gain experience the time spent will be less and less but initially you need to cut them a break. They're new.
If that was the reason the DPE provided for failing the student the DPE is unreasonable and wrong and you're damn right I would take it to the FSDO. It's my pass/fail rate. It's also my job to represent the student and to be their advocate.
It's perfectly acceptable for a new pilot to spend 15 seconds running a checklist after they clear the runway before calling ground. As they gain experience the time spent will be less and less but initially you need to cut them a break. They're new.
If that was the reason the DPE provided for failing the student the DPE is unreasonable and wrong and you're damn right I would take it to the FSDO. It's my pass/fail rate. It's also my job to represent the student and to be their advocate.
Flying Viking
Pre-takeoff checklist
Why would you stop on a taxiway and block traffic? I'm not arguing with you, I just don't understand why you would do the check list after landing and before talking to ground?
To ensure the items on the checklist get done. To listen and make sure you're not butting into an IFR readback or something on the ground frequency. To orient yourself if at an unfamiliar airport.
I've flown with four different instructors to at least at a dozen different towered airports, and no one has ever questioned or had problems with this.
Flying Viking
Pre-takeoff checklist
Exactly!!!!
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
The bolded comment is a very good point. I'm going to change my flow/checklist to set the radio FIRST so that I can quickly run through the other items while simultaneously making sure that the ground frequency is clear before making the call.
MAKG1
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Yup. Mustn't forget, to look around for taxiway signs and locate yourself on the diagram, so you can tell Ground where the F you are, and actually follow their instructions.
Some airports are real simple. Some are complex mazes. KSJC with its perpetual construction is an example. I once got a back-taxi clearance there with 8 turns, one of which was to taxi on an active runway! You had better be sure I got THAT one triple checked. I don't think a 172 would be much of a match for the nose wheel of a 737.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you are unsure, ask for progressive taxi instructions.....
MAKG1
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Of course.
But you still have to tell Ground where you are, and follow the progressive instructions.
ChrisK
En-Route
All of our CAP aircraft have both kinds :nod:
dtuuri
Final Approach
Haven't read where anybody yet has advised stopping the aircraft after crossing the hold line, immediately changing to ground, running the checklist while monitoring ground (that way you can hear, "Cessna uniform victor x-ray make an immediate left turn on the parallel and hold short of the next intersection!") and then contacting ground for taxi. Common sense would be to have a short essential items only after landing checklist (radar, strobes, boost pumps, etc.) and do the rest after reaching parking.
dtuuri
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Kayoh@190
My airline doesn't even have an after landing checklist - we each run a flow and that's it. After all, nothing that's done after we pull off the runway is going to get us killed if we forget to do it - maybe just a little ridicule:
"Hey jackass - clean up your wing!"
Me too. This is how I was taught and it's not hard at all, especially in a single-engine piston. I still believe in it. I think it's a potential problem to delay clearing the exit off an active runway.
And, oh, pilots that leave their planes blocking the self-serve gas pumps while they go on a lunch break... that's not cool either.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Missed it. Would've saved me a post.
The student did what he was taught. Crossed the hold line, stopped and did the after landing checklist. Then do whatever else you have to do. The DE, for whatever reason (and he probably had one, had talked recently to a controller or gone to a meeting where this came up, seen a close call, something like that) thinks the pilot should contact ground first, then do the after landing checklist. The FARS aren't clear, in my opinion as to which should be done first. I know that the student was taught to stop to do the checklist as opposed to doing it "on the roll". Its because if you do it on the roll, you tend to forget it. Make it a stop and do it thing, and you will remember it.
This is the problem with independent instructors using DE's that are independent as opposed to a school that is run by a DE and has everyone on the same page. If the DE wants the student to talk to ground first, that's the way it gets taught.
Its REALLY UNFORTUNATE that the student PAYS for the mistake, not only with money, but with a fail on his record. If you call the DE, make sure you point this out to the DE. The student did what he was taught to do and is paying for it, in more ways than one. Sometimes the DE can find a way to help him out, seeing as how he got a bit of a raw deal. After all, we are all human aren't we?
This is the problem with independent instructors using DE's that are independent as opposed to a school that is run by a DE and has everyone on the same page. If the DE wants the student to talk to ground first, that's the way it gets taught.
Its REALLY UNFORTUNATE that the student PAYS for the mistake, not only with money, but with a fail on his record. If you call the DE, make sure you point this out to the DE. The student did what he was taught to do and is paying for it, in more ways than one. Sometimes the DE can find a way to help him out, seeing as how he got a bit of a raw deal. After all, we are all human aren't we?
woodchucker
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I'm a little confused here. I'm a fairly new pilot and did my training at KSLC. Once on the runway the tower always gave an exit instruction something like: "Exit RW 35 at K4 and contact ground on .9er"
I realize different airports are configured differently, but I was taught to go ahead and stop the aircraft after the hold short line, complete the after landing checklist (which takes about 5 seconds tops so again I'm confused on the biatching going on about it here), and then switch over to ground. It's not time consuming, you aren't holding up traffic, there are other off-ramps if needed. I just think it is silly to rush a student pilot or a new pilot even, especially a pilot on a check-ride.
The only thing my DPE requested of me regarding checklists was to not use it during pre-flight, but just review it after pre-flight to make sure I got it all.
I realize different airports are configured differently, but I was taught to go ahead and stop the aircraft after the hold short line, complete the after landing checklist (which takes about 5 seconds tops so again I'm confused on the biatching going on about it here), and then switch over to ground. It's not time consuming, you aren't holding up traffic, there are other off-ramps if needed. I just think it is silly to rush a student pilot or a new pilot even, especially a pilot on a check-ride.
The only thing my DPE requested of me regarding checklists was to not use it during pre-flight, but just review it after pre-flight to make sure I got it all.
Shawn
En-Route
I do that same thing...cross the hold short line, come to a COMPLETE stop then open the cowell flaps (which I have to reach down for), flip off all the unnecessary lights (which I have to look behind my yoke for), and raise the flaps (which I only try and do at full stop as to not get in the bad habit once I fly complex). All of which takes me 10 seconds tops but not something I wanna do in motion if I do not have to, especially at an unfamiliar airport. THEN I contact ground for taxi instructions.
If the tower says "without delay"...different story otherwise they can reach me on tower frequency during those 10 seconds if I had not made the switch yet if they need me or I am in the way.
I am baffled by those advocating that a student pilot should not use a checklist for ALL phases of flight or they should configure the plane in motion. Once you are a grumpy old seasoned pilot...sure, but not for a low time pilot.
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StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
I'm totally with you. I had so many days in the air with my instructor cramming info into my ears and giving instruction all the way down that when I passed the hold short lines I couldn't remember the ground frequency much less anything on my checklist. Now that I have a bit more time I can do that list on the roll without looking or even really thinking about it. It's a workload issue, and students are often overloaded doing things that more experienced pilots dont even think about.
During my instruction we always stopped. Only exception was if the airport was really busy and my instructor would say "go ahead and taxi, I will do the after landing checklist". This made sure that I was paying full attention to safely moving the airplane, and kept us moving, while not skipping any steps.
I have never had a controller get mad at me for stopping. It's safer to stop than to go when you aren't ready to go.
PROVES NOTHING. Always treat mags as they are hot. I could switch my mags to off and let the engine die, remove the key and at least one of the mags would be ungrounded. Aircraft ignition switches are by and large crap.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Nothing? If you switch your mags to off and the engine does not die there's no proof of a problem?
OK, let me rephrase that: It doesn't prove your mags are not hot in the OFF position. But even in your scenario, my underlying advice to ALWAYS TREAT MAGS AS HOT still applies.