Contacting Ground

roncachamp said:
It doesn't help the controller to have a pilot sit there going through the checklist blocking a runway exit.
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But I guess blocking a taxiway with a collision must be just fine.

Reread 14 CFR 91.3(a). No controller has the authority to override a negative safety decision.

Hey, I've been cleared for takeoff with another airplane in front of me before. Did I violate an instruction by not plowing into the other aircraft? I've also been instructed to turn base from a taxiway. That might have been interesting.

Controllers are not God and they are not PIC. There are certain things, like positive access to the runway, that they control. There are many more things they do not.
 
If the tower really had a issue they would just try him on tower freq if they couldn't reach him on ground. I believe applicants are too checklist heavy now days, but I see nothing wrong with what your student did, shy of it taking him 10minutes or something to run his list.


As for getting in trouble for IDing a VOR, sounds like you're DPE isn't too bright, so he'd have him just dial up and go, even if the VOR was out of service?

I think the DPE needs some re training, presuming everything you said is true.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
The AIM says to do so "immediately," which seems contradictory to what I've been taught, but maybe it's never been an issue because my post-landing checklist is so short:
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FYI, that AIM is out of date. A taxi clearance no longer clears you across all runways unless the clearance says so explicitly.
 
jordane93 said:
I've never gotten yelled for using a checklist.
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I've gotten reprimanded for using the wrong checklist by well meaning but misguided CAP instructors (if it ain't factory, it ain't legit, even if the factory checklist misses some things like extending flaps for preflight), but never for using a checklist. Ever. Even on the parallel on a busy day prior to calling Ground. Even at a busy Class C.
 
Its a test of character. If you fall off, or even if you get pushed off, get back on the horse and finish the ride. There might be some solace in "you aren't the only one".
Keep it professional, keep it positive, keep a smile on your face (even if it hurts) and get the job done.
 
MAKG1 said:
FYI, that AIM is out of date. A taxi clearance no longer clears you across all runways unless the clearance says so explicitly.
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Hi MAKG1, I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but I think that changed before my time.

The pictured 4-3-20 section is from the 2012 version of the AIM that I studied with, and this section is still exactly the same in the 2014 version.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Hi MAKG1, I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but I think that changed before my time.

The pictured 4-3-20 section is from the 2012 version of the AIM that I studied with, and this section is still exactly the same in the 2014 version.
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This is the note that is shown on the AIM dated 7/24/14 on the FAA website.

NOTE-
1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to advising the pilot to contact ground control.

2. Ground control will issue taxi clearance to parking. That clearance does not authorize the aircraft to “enter” or “cross” any runways. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0403.html
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with what the applicant did. DPEs are like everyone else and may have their own pet ideas which are not necessarily right or wrong and are merely technique. On the other hand, some DPEs have ideas which are clearly way out there, like the one I had for my ATP check ride who though the mighty Duchess was a "large or turbine powered airplane" and wanted the pattern flown at 1500 AGL. In that case it's cooperate and graduate or find someone else. Luckily my instructor warned me about this. It's good if the instructor knows about the idiosyncrasies of the examiner.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Hi MAKG1, I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but I think that changed before my time.

The pictured 4-3-20 section is from the 2012 version of the AIM that I studied with, and this section is still exactly the same in the 2014 version.
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No...actually my 2014 version says under Note 2:, "Ground control will issue taxi clearance to parking. That clearance *does not* authorize the aircraft to enter or cross *any runways*. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC."
 
There are always 3 sides to every story, his, yours and somewhere in the middle is the truth.

The knee jerk "call the FSDO and demand they do something!" is a bit out of line here. From what I've read from the OP so far a picture is developing of what took place, and really there is no need for hysterics.

The solution? Ask the DPE what he wants to recheck, prep the student and move on. If the OP or the student doesn't want to retest with the DPE, find another.
 
drgwentzel said:
No...actually my 2014 version says under Note 2:, "Ground control will issue taxi clearance to parking. That clearance *does not* authorize the aircraft to enter or cross *any runways*. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC."
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I stand corrected. I kept focusing on the first two notes. Thanks!

AIM_4-3-20_2012_versus_2014.jpg
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I was taught to spend a few seconds doing my post-landing checklist after clearing the runway and, when done, calling ground. I do it pretty quickly.
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I did my private training in a Cessna 150. The after landing checklist had two items; wing flaps - up, carburetor heat - cold. Never needed or used a checklist for them.


This seems consistent with the PTS comments re "Single-Pilot Resource Management (SRM)," which presents "Situational Awareness" as one of the six areas of SRM and explicitly says you should keep your "workload to a minimum during taxi operations" in order to increase your awareness during taxiing.
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I suppose it's a good thing it's limited to taxiing. If it wasn't instructors and examiners would have pilots pulling out the checklist for every takeoff and landing. Touch and goes would be eliminated.
 
dell30rb said:
So i'm rolling out and the tower says "exit next left, proceed on taxiway Alpha, left on Bravo to the FBO, monitor this frequency to the ramp"

I have my hands completely full and don't acknowledge. Maybe i'm a student. Or maybe there is a wicked crosswind and i'm rolling out in a taildragger. I take the exit, stop after the hold short line and ask the tower to repeat taxi clearance.

Is that some kind of non-compliance?
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Yes.

Have I violated some regulation?
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Yes.
 
drgwentzel said:
Steven,

I teach my students that if the tower provides instructions while taxiing and it is only to exit the runway and taxi to the ramp via a single taxiway or two, then they can read it back, exit the runway, do the checklist, then taxi to the ramp as instructed.

However, if it's a long winded taxi instruction with hold short stuff, yattie yattie, then I advise them to tell the tower to standby, that they will exit where instructed and then they will re-contact them for the instructions when they are ready to copy them down. I also tell them it never hurts to throw in there that they are a student pilot if it's a solo.

Gene
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Gene,

You should teach your students to ask for permission before doing anything that may be unexpected by the tower. Blocking a runway exit after having been issued taxi instructions is unexpected.

Steve
 
Flying Viking said:
This is how I was taught as well. Full stop after the hold short line, do the after-landing check-list and then contact ground.
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Why would you stop on a taxiway and block traffic? I'm not arguing with you, I just don't understand why you would do the check list after landing and before talking to ground? :dunno:
 
roncachamp said:
Gene,

You should teach your students to ask for permission before doing anything that may be unexpected by the tower. Blocking a runway exit after having been issued taxi instructions is unexpected.

Steve
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Exactly! :yes:
 
drgwentzel said:
It's the pilot's responsibility to perform the after-landing checklist. It's the controller's responsibility to deal with traffic flow as it presents itself.
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So controllers must assume every landing aircraft will block a runway exit for some period of time and space traffic accordingly. It's good that controllers are paid by the hour and not per operation. Rather frustrating for the majority of pilots that don't stop to run after landing checklists though.
 
Skyscraper said:
I was never taught to use a checklist after landing until I am already in my parking spot and prepping to shut down, carb heat and flaps up is automatic. I have had tower give me clearance to my spot right after clearing the runway, telling me to taxi no delay and simply to monitor ground.
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+1

Stopping on a taxi way to perform any check list doesn't seem right to me. :no: Contacting ground should be the highest priority to ensure you can get instructions for other traffic behind you. :dunno:
 
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MAKG1 said:
But I guess blocking a taxiway with a collision must be just fine.
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I have no idea what you're trying to say there and I don't think you do either.

Reread 14 CFR 91.3(a). No controller has the authority to override a negative safety decision.
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We're not talking about negative safety decisions.
 
roncachamp said:
So controllers must assume every landing aircraft will block a runway exit for some period of time and space traffic accordingly. It's good that controllers are paid by the hour and not per operation. Rather frustrating for the majority of pilots that don't stop to run after landing checklists though.
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The only time I stop after clearing a runway is when I can't get a word in edgewise with ground and haven't already received instructions from the tower guy. And depending on the airport, I may keep going anyway because they seem to get rather annoyed if we do stop to wait and talk to them. (DEN would be one that comes to mind)

As others have mentioned, how many of those after landing items are really critical enough to demand stopping to do them right NOW? Why can't they wait until in the parking area, or do a flow and do the checklist in the parking area? I have 13 items on my after landing checklist, and none of them have to be done immediately clearing the runway.
 
Speed said:
The only time I stop after clearing a runway is when I can't get a word in edgewise with ground and haven't already received instructions from the tower guy. And depending on the airport, I may keep going anyway because they seem to get rather annoyed if we do stop to wait and talk to them. (DEN would be one that comes to mind)

As others have mentioned, how many of those after landing items are really critical enough to demand stopping to do them right NOW? Why can't they wait until in the parking area, or do a flow and do the checklist in the parking area? I have 13 items on my after landing checklist, and none of them have to be done immediately clearing the runway.
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Exactly!

A little common sense goes along way here. :yes:
 
Speed said:
The only time I stop after clearing a runway is when I can't get a word in edgewise with ground and haven't already received instructions from the tower guy. And depending on the airport, I may keep going anyway because they seem to get rather annoyed if we do stop to wait and talk to them. (DEN would be one that comes to mind)

As others have mentioned, how many of those after landing items are really critical enough to demand stopping to do them right NOW? Why can't they wait until in the parking area, or do a flow and do the checklist in the parking area? I have 13 items on my after landing checklist, and none of them have to be done immediately clearing the runway.
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Agreed.

The last information manual I purchased, Cherokee Arrow III, didn't even have an after landing checklist. The "Approach and Landing" checklist was followed by the "Stopping Engine" checklist. Some of the things on the "Stopping Engine" checklist I'd do while taxiing. I expect some folks here will be absolutely horrified by that.
 
I think you should contact ground as soon as asked to do so. Many a time I was forced to go around because a situationally unaware pilot would stop on a towered runway while 3 other planes were behind in the pattern. Spending too much time at a turnoff can have the same effect forcing a landing AC to stay on the runway rather than turnoff quickly into the space you are occupying.
 
So i'm rolling out and the tower says "exit next left, proceed on taxiway Alpha, left on Bravo to the FBO, monitor this frequency to the ramp"

I have my hands completely full and don't acknowledge. Maybe i'm a student. Or maybe there is a wicked crosswind and i'm rolling out in a taildragger. I take the exit, stop after the hold short line and ask the tower to repeat taxi clearance.

Is that some kind of non-compliance? Have I violated some regulation?
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Steven, you're telling me this is a FAR violation or safety hazard? This scenario plays out all the time.
 
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Geico266 said:
Exactly!

A little common sense goes along way here. :yes:
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Yup.... Planes are for efficient and fast travel...

Keep it moving....... I cannot think of any certified plane that needs to come to a complete halt after leaving the runway to perform a checklist.... Just taxi to the tie down area, away from ALL the traffic and run the checklist there...IMHO...
 
I believe the discussion has changed from discussing a student pilot on a check ride vs. those of us with many hours and a lot more experience. Keep perspective on the specific situation at hand.
 
pilot_dude said:
I believe the discussion has changed from discussing a student pilot on a check ride vs. those of us with many hours and a lot more experience. Keep perspective on the specific situation at hand.
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Then the discussion should be.........

Why are instructors teaching methods that are NOT needed..... and border on a safety issue..:dunno::dunno:
 
N801BH said:
Then the discussion should be.........

Why are instructors teaching methods that are NOT needed..... and border on a safety issue..:dunno::dunno:
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So the student can pass the check ride. My DPE (~8 years ago) was a very practical and pragmatic pilot. I learned several useful things form him. But some of the others in our area have particular areas they wished to see, period. Among those are checklist sticklers. Before takeoff, after landing (even for a taxi back and another pass), start up, run up, pre landing, etc. There are 6 (IIRC) for the C-172C I fly now, not counting emergency procedures. Today, I have no problem using them as an after check to make sure I didn't forget anything. For my check ride I was instructed and prepared to use them religiously in case I wound up with a different examiner.

Maybe the examiners shouldn't be that way, but, at least when I was prepping, some were.

John
 
I know my local controllers have complained about the way some CFIs deal with this. Depending on the airports and rwy, there may only be one exit that doesn't require either a long taxi or a 180. Some CFIs will use the exit (off the rwy, but not yet on the taxiway) as a convenient place to debrief the landing or take extra time to clean up flaps or whatever. Our controllers have problems with that when they have another plane landing and no place to exit, or the have another plane on the taxiway that now has to give way or make other arrangements. I can see where that could set up bad habits.
 
N801BH said:
Then the discussion should be.........

Why are instructors teaching methods that are NOT needed..... and border on a safety issue..:dunno::dunno:
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You do realize the "pull levers on the move" is how GA airplanes fold gear on the ground right? :dunno:


--break break---


There's no authoritative reason to keep the speed of ground operations up. That flow is a product of experience and proficiency. From a training environment perspective it might be inconvenient for the knuckleheads in the tower to have to endure deviations from that expectation, but it is not wrong. I can 'stand by for after landing checks' away a taxi instruction and otherwise stop for safety of flight to accomplish any ******** checklist I want, all day. As long as I'm not stopping on an active runway as part of a crossing clearance, there's nothing incorrect about it. That's why there's 'cancel crossing clearance' calls from ATC too.

In practicality, outside of rushed class Bravo ops, there's not one ground controller I've encountered that has much of any heartburn about stopping for checks after clearing the runway. None. So this issue is rather moot ime. Granted, I only have a limited sampling experience in this matter, as a military instructor pilot for a living and a CFII/piston owner on the weekends. :rolleyes: I come to POA to get my occupational facts straight you know....:rofl:

[/rant]

Now let's talk about a real-world operating trend issue, for once, in this thread: If you're doing overnuggets and your airplane can't do 2-1/2 bills minimum on the break, you're just an idiot.:yesnod: There isn't a FAR for that either, but there oughtta' be..... :D
 
Matthew said:
I know my local controllers have complained about the way some CFIs deal with this. Depending on the airports and rwy, there may only be one exit that doesn't require either a long taxi or a 180. Some CFIs will use the exit (off the rwy, but not yet on the taxiway) as a convenient place to debrief the landing or take extra time to clean up flaps or whatever. Our controllers have problems with that when they have another plane landing and no place to exit, or the have another plane on the taxiway that now has to give way or make other arrangements. I can see where that could set up bad habits.
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Our tower wants all landing aircraft OFF the runway and on the taxiway side of the hold short line to clear the next landing aircraft.......

Some will say just clearing the runway edge is good enough.. I say,, just cross the hold short line, with a plane that is landing... And you will get smacked with a "Runway Incursion" charge....:rolleyes:
 
dell30rb said:
So i'm rolling out and the tower says "exit next left, proceed on taxiway Alpha, left on Bravo to the FBO, monitor this frequency to the ramp"

I have my hands completely full and don't acknowledge. Maybe i'm a student. Or maybe there is a wicked crosswind and i'm rolling out in a taildragger. I take the exit, stop after the hold short line and ask the tower to repeat taxi clearance.

Is that some kind of non-compliance? Have I violated some regulation?


If the tower issues a clearance and asks that I proceed with no delay, and I acknowledge that is another story. You either acknowledge and follow the instructions or declare unable, and then follow whatever comes next.
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roncachamp said:
Yes.

Yes.
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The times I stop after clear of the runway in situations such as described above I am not stopping to do a checklist. Rather, I am stopping to get my bearings as to where exactly I have been cleared to taxi so as to avoid an incursion situation. I have been chewed out for stopping after clearing the runway in just a situation such as this and I hadn't stopped for long.

Would you prefer we state unfamiliar, request progressive rather than stop for even a moment to orient ourselves?
 
Ron Levy said:
That sounds like a training issue.
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Meh, for me it's about practicality, in my C150 it's nothing but flaps and carb heat, two items for me does not necessarily warrant checklist usage.

I'm not saying using one is a bad idea, but flaps and carb heat I can operate without looking therefore increasing my situational awareness outside the plane and reducing the chance of runway incursion.

I use the same exact operation for touch n go (flaps up, reduce carb heat), I don't need a checklist for that, why is it okay to make that operation without a checklist during touch n go but it's a "training issue" if I do it without one after clearing the runway :dunno:

Is there a regulation I'm not aware of that requires checklist usage once the runway is clear?
 
N801BH said:
Our tower wants all landing aircraft OFF the runway and on the taxiway side of the hold short line to clear the next landing aircraft.......

Some will say just clearing the runway edge is good enough.. I say,, just cross the hold short line, with a plane that is landing... And you will get smacked with a "Runway Incursion" charge....:rolleyes:
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Actually, just clearing the runway edge when exiting is good enough as long as further progress across the hold short lines is not stopped.
 
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N801BH said:
Our tower wants all landing aircraft OFF the runway and on the taxiway side of the hold short line to clear the next landing aircraft.......

Some will say just clearing the runway edge is good enough.. I say,, just cross the hold short line, with a plane that is landing... And you will get smacked with a "Runway Incursion" charge....:rolleyes:
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Yeah - in my post what happens is: The a/c exits the rwy, crosses the hold-short line and stops. There is enough room at the intersection that the plane is not interfering with the taxiway. The problem is the exit is now blocked and the airport(s) with the controllers that have complained are very busy with students at certain times of the day and want to get the next a/c off the rwy as soon as possible. When the controller sees the exit blocked, he has to consider the a/c that is still on the rwy will have to either do a 180 or a long taxi to the next available exit.

A lot comes down to situational awareness on the part of the pilot.
 
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