Constant Speed Prop use in traffic pattern

That seems like a debatable statement, but others are discussing that with you.

What I don't understand is the issue with pushing the prop lever up earlier? I've seen several comments about it being a problem, or the mark of a newbie.

When I'm on downwind between midfield and abeam the numbers, my prop goes full forward. I'm not fast enough or producing enough power for an increase in RPM - so what's wrong with doing it early? One less thing to fiddle with later, and you are prepped for the go around.

What is it about that practice that would make you say - hold on, don't do that until on final because you are missing...

Tim

For me, that's perfectly acceptable. When I am no longer making enough power to increase the RPM that's when I will go full forward with the prop. The reason I wait until then (and for me it's on base to final when that happens) isn't for safety, engine preservation, etc. It's simply for courtesy of airport neighbors. We already have enough issues with people complaining about airport noise. No reason to go from 2000-2300 up to 2700-2900 RPM and give the br-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-ap sound that just gives people one more thing to complain about. Same reason I don't floodlight my back yard and shoot 300 rounds of ammo at 2am. Is it legal? Yep. Is it safe? Yep. Is it me being an a-hole? Yep. Don't be an a-hole. In your case, you aren't since you aren't getting that louder RPM noise. For those that do, well, you're an inconsiderate prick. Might as well go put some glass packs on your car and slam the gas pedal to the floor at 5am when you pull out of your driveway every morning while you are at it.
 
Just to throw in my .02, here's how I manipulate my blue knob -
On takeoff roll and initial departure, full forward (of course.. or is there debate about that, too?)
About 500' or 600' AGL or so, I pull the blue knob back to 2500. Yes, the MP is full forward. I know... I know... It's oversquare and will cause space/time rifts that will dis-integrate my airplane and all around it. Hasn't happened yet.
If I'm leaving the pattern climbing out, MP stays as high as it'll go. Staying in pattern, pull MP back to... around 20"
Abeam numbers, gear/first flaps/mp back to around 16 or 17. Push on the knob... hand is already there, so why not give that blue knob a quick nudge? At that point it doesn't do anything for performance and RPM doesn't go up (much) On short final, do a red/blue/green check to make sure mixture full rich, blue knob is all the way forward, gear is down.

Flying an approach, don't touch blue knob until descent at the faf when I'm at 15 or 16" mp.

I fly an F35 Bonanza

Is it just me or does anyone else like the sound of a Bo with prop at high RPM? For some reason it sounds aggressive and nasty in a good way. Sounds like... victory. (EDIT - I don't live near an airport and I don't advocate ****ing off neighbours, but damn it does sound cool)
 
Just out of curiosity, what's the concern?

Are you worried that on a go-around, the pilot will fail to recognize the difference between 2400RPM and 2700RPM? Or are you worried that the pilot is unable to take their hand off the throttle? Or is it that the few seconds it takes to push in the blue knob is critical?

I am a firm believer that people eff up. Also, it is human nature to make mistakes. I discussed this with my primary CFI at one point and I decided to follow the guys on BT who said leave the mixture and prop alone till landing.

Here is a scenario that can easily happen, take a pilot and plane from the flat land, with the plane setup for summer heat in the flats. The pilot follows the suggested technique of prop and/or mixture left at cruise. Now land come in to land at a high altitude airport on a cold fall day and "abort" the landing as the wheels touch. Pilot grabs the wrong handle, and pushes the mixture forward, engine starts to flood and stumble, pilot pushes the throttle forward missing the prop lever, engine dies. I was lucky, I was still fast enough the second engine on the Aerostar carried me aloft long enough I could restart the second engine.
Now, I had only a few hours in the Aerostar at that point and I still had a CFII right seat with me and this was only a training flight simulating a go around.

In aviation, you often see two battling concepts. One mistake is all it takes and you are a statistic; however we then read NTSB reports and the Nall report and constantly talk about the accident chain. And how it was not just one mistake but a series of decisions that allowed that one mistake to become fatal. This is same type of issue; when you are in the airport vicinity this is a high workload environment, potentially high stress, and it is easy to miss something. Does not matter how many times you have done it, one day you will miss something.

The next argument I have heard is that I am proficient, and I have muscle memory to protect me, so I can easily push all three levers forward, or I can push prop, then mixture than throttle... Often their is an associated claim of muscle memory. However, most people fail to understand both how procedural memory (the correct term for muscle memory) and task saturation work in the human mind. procedural memory can only follow a route procedure that does not involve any conditional data points. If you need to make a decision, you are then utilizing declarative memory which requires active concentration. Where procedural memory helps with task saturation is the effective off loading of tasks to predefined routines that do not require conscious thought; a great example is walking. You can walk while deep in though about something else because the process is predefined and requires basically no thought beyond general direction.
With task saturation, the mind is unable to process additional information or manage additional tasks. Some via natural talent, others via training learn how to "prioritize" tasks while in this situation to then get the best outcome. When task saturated, tasks will often be missed/forgotten or done later. So when a pilot is faced with suddenly needing to make full power and the plane is low and slow with minimal energy, which pilot do you think is less likely to make a mistake? The pilot who already has his/her hand on the throttle and has a single lever to push, or the pilot has two or more levers and may have to consider the sequence of the levers? Which has more time to focus outside the window? Which has more time to react?


Tim
 
Sounds like your screw up started before you even got into the plane and had nothing to do with advancing or not advancing the prop. Perhaps that should be looked at moreso than your misguided focus on the prop knob being the safety issue.
 
About 500' or 600' AGL or so, I pull the blue knob back to 2500. Yes, the MP is full forward. I know... I know... It's oversquare and will cause space/time rifts that will dis-integrate my airplane and all around it.
Lycoming says differently.
upload_2021-6-2_18-5-49.png
 
Lycoming says differently.

"But I was told to always reduce MP before reducing RPM! Always MP first!! Climb at 25" and 2500 RPM.. Those pressures! Or something... I was told to do it that way...."

Yep, I was being sarcastic.
 
Funniest thing about the chart is the max allowable MP is at 2400 RPM, and less MP is allowed at 2700 RPM.
I think what it's saying is that they don't expect the engine to pull more than 29" of MP at sea level no matter how hard you cram the throttle.
 
Sounds like your screw up started before you even got into the plane and had nothing to do with advancing or not advancing the prop. Perhaps that should be looked at moreso than your misguided focus on the prop knob being the safety issue.

Not at all. You missed the message and the point I was making. Oh well.

Tim
 
Not at all. You missed the message and the point I was making. Oh well.

Tim
Guess so, there was so much incorrect and rambling about that post I have no idea what the point was and why everything was the opposite of what should be done.
 
I think what it's saying is that they don't expect the engine to pull more than 29" of MP at sea level no matter how hard you cram the throttle.

Sure it will, just put a turbo on it. :)
 
So you can **** off airport neighbors? Awesome. Way to be an Ambassador!
Ain't going to make a lot of noise unless you've got the black knob in as well.
 
Ain't going to make a lot of noise unless you've got the black knob in as well.
Indeed. I even know instructors who teach putting the prop full forward and just flying RPM in the pattern as though it were a fixed pitch prop. Not my thing but I've tried it and it works. Arrow and Cherokee. Skyhawk and Cutlass. Same power settings.
 
RPM full on decent to pattern, use MP as needed to keep the speed down. Never touch RPM again until on the ground and shutting down the engine. In the pattern, the RPM comes down by itself when the MP is pulled back. I only mess with MP in pattern so I am ready for a go-around with just MP. I already have to also work the gear and the flaps on a go-around, why complicate it more by worrying about RPM. Throttle forward, positive clime, gear up, flaps up, airspeed, radio, same as normal take-off. (Not in the original question, but on climb-out, at about 500 feet, cut the RPM and establish Vy and reduce noise. Use MP until at the firewall, then RPM from then until decent.)
PA32R-300
 
RPM full on decent to pattern, use MP as needed to keep the speed down. Never touch RPM again until on the ground and shutting down the engine. In the pattern, the RPM comes down by itself when the MP is pulled back. I only mess with MP in pattern so I am ready for a go-around with just MP. I already have to also work the gear and the flaps on a go-around, why complicate it more by worrying about RPM. Throttle forward, positive clime, gear up, flaps up, airspeed, radio, same as normal take-off. (Not in the original question, but on climb-out, at about 500 feet, cut the RPM and establish Vy and reduce noise. Use MP until at the firewall, then RPM from then until decent.)
PA32R-300
Yeah, I agree. There’s no compelling reason to be fooling with the blue knob in the pattern.
 
Yeah, I'm not on idle on downwind.
You don't have to be at idle. Just throttled back. Except when I'm doing one of my "best forward speed" approaches to Dulles, I'm down to the range where the prop tips aren't going supersonic.
 
O470 powered 182 - I'm usually coming out of governing range on downwind and bump the prop knob to full RPM, of course there is no RPM change or a very little change occurs.

Flying circuits, I usually just leave in full RPM at little airports with no traffic, but use the prop at the home field with bigger patterns and ATC wanting extended downwind or crosswinds
 
You don't have to be at idle. Just throttled back. Except when I'm doing one of my "best forward speed" approaches to Dulles, I'm down to the range where the prop tips aren't going supersonic.

Yes, just because prop control is firewalled it does not mean prop will be at max RPM. It takes almost full power on most small planes for that to happen.
 
I’m usually trying everything to slow down to gear or flap speed anyway, so prop forward is helpful there.
 
Yes, in the Mooney my speed brakes are wonderful. It’s a chore to get the thing down to gear speed some times.
 
You don't have to be at idle. Just throttled back. Except when I'm doing one of my "best forward speed" approaches to Dulles, I'm down to the range where the prop tips aren't going supersonic.
I already stated where I can futz with the blue knob without ****ing off neighbors. Fun fact:
 
Back
Top