Confused about taxie terms.

B

bahama flier

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
143
Location
Deland, Florida
Display Name
Display name:
bahama flier
I was taxiing for departure and got to my holding position and was told to position and hold on the runway. I did.

Next trip I was again taxiing for departure, got to a line also waiting,, and I advised I was lined up and waiting, and was told line up and wait was done on the runway.

I have been off the flying circuit for a while, battling for my medical after a cancer fight, and I am rusty please someone tell me what and where the correct phrase is used for being in line and holding on the runway.

I thought I knew but obviously I don't. Thanks
 
Cessna 12345 holding short of runway XX.

Happy to hear you are doing well.!!
 
Old: "Position and hold"
New: "Line up and wait"

Both are on the runway.

Glad to hear you are doing ok.
 
"Line up and wait" is the current phraseology. It replaced "position and hold" around 2010. We did it here to be more inline with ICAO.
 
bahama flier said:
I was taxiing for departure and got to my holding position and was told to position and hold on the runway. I did.
Click to expand...

To address this first, ATC should have used the current term "Line up and wait" instead of "Position and hold." Both mean the same thing, to line up on the runway and wait for your takeoff clearance.

bahama flier said:
Next trip I was again taxiing for departure, got to a line also waiting,, and I advised I was lined up and waiting, and was told line up and wait was done on the runway.

I have been off the flying circuit for a while, battling for my medical after a cancer fight, and I am rusty please someone tell me what and where the correct phrase is used for being in line and holding on the runway.
Click to expand...

Now to this question. First, if you are in line behind multiple aircraft waiting to takeoff, you normally don't contact tower until you are number 1 in line. At that point you call "NXXXX holding short of Runway XX ready for takeoff." If you call when you are not number 1, you may confuse the tower operator as to who is next in line.
 
Yup, new phraseology. The 'new' term minimizes confusion between "position and hold" and "hold position."

'Position and hold' means the same as 'line up and wait' just different lingo.

Happy to hear you are well! Fly safe!

:)
 
midwestpa24 said:
Now to this question. First, if you are in line behind multiple aircraft waiting to takeoff, you normally don't contact tower until you are number 1 in line. At that point you call "NXXXX holding short of Runway XX ready for takeoff." If you call when you are not number 1, you may confuse the tower operator as to who is next in line.
Click to expand...

Disagree with this. Even if I am #3 in line, I call up tower when I'm waiting in line. Why?

One example I can give you is where I had a jet in front of me and tower let me cut in front of them using a taxiway a bit further down the runway as an intersection departure. If they didn't know I was ready I'd be sitting there still waiting on the jet to move.

If there are a lot of folks in front of me, yeah I'll wait. But 2-3, nah, I check in and let them know I'm there and ready to go. Occasionally I will say #2 or #3, but most times I don't because the order is entirely the tower's discretion, not mine.
 
korben88 said:
I thought line up and wait was what we did in the Army :p
Click to expand...

It was, as it was in the Air Force, although we also had a lot of "hurry up and wait" too.
 
Last edited:
midwestpa24 said:
Now to this question. First, if you are in line behind multiple aircraft waiting to takeoff, you normally don't contact tower until you are number 1 in line. At that point you call "NXXXX holding short of Runway XX ready for takeoff." If you call when you are not number 1, you may confuse the tower operator as to who is next in line.
Click to expand...
I do pretty much the same as @Caramon13. Unless the runway is blocked by aircraft I let them know when I am ready to go. If I have run up before calling Ground, I will even let them know I'll be ready to go as soon as I get to the runway. There are many reasons ATC might let you go ahead of others. The student pilot who is taking forever on the run-up; the corporate jet waiting for IFR release.

These guys can handle multiple aircraft taking off, landing, arriving and departing from and to multiple directions on multiple runways. I'm not too worried about their ability to sequence airplanes on the ground.
 
This one of those that has no "pat" answer. It changes from airport to airport, time to time and situation to situation.
 
If LC keeps their strips in order and has a basic understanding of aircraft types, they shouldn't have a problem sorting who's who in the hold short area.

Call when you're ready for takeoff.
 
I've never understood why "line up and wait" was used to begin with. To me, it implies that you are getting in line behind someone, which isn't something that one would to on the runway. In fact, at my home field, they quit issuing position and hold instructions (as 'line up and wait') after the change in phraseology - probably because too many people were getting confused.
 
As Velocity alluded to in his "strips in order" comment, call up when you're ready regardless of who's ahead of you. Don't try to get all cute and give them holding #2 or #3 because it doesn't matter, the tower decides that anyway. The tower will move your "strip" in the order that you called up ready for take off, departure, blast off...doesn't matter but it is usually first come first served when you call up ready to go.
 
Velocity173 said:
If LC keeps their strips in order and has a basic understanding of aircraft types, they shouldn't have a problem sorting who's who in the hold short area.

Call when you're ready for takeoff.
Click to expand...

Yep, that.

There are a couple airports I've flown out of where local procedure is to only call when #1. Been a while...trying to remember one, I think it was in southern California somewhere. That instruction was given me by the ground controller.(Camarillo, maybe?)

But that just doesn't work at many airports. Good luck figuring out when you're #1 at my home, Palo Alto. There's three run-up bars and one taxi-back bar. They are routinely all full, with aircraft waiting behind, too. Local custom here is to not move from the holding T unless you're clearly the only aircraft or instructed by tower.

EDIT: Oh, also, I've been told by my CFI (thought I should verify it) that the proper phraseology changes to "<tower>, <tail> ready at <runway> in sequence" if you're not clearly in line for the hold short bar.
 
I was flying VFR out of Memphis several months ago and was told to "line up and wait". Caught me off guard. Admittingly I don't fly into towered airports often. The controller got pretty ****y with me after just a few seconds when he noticed I was "lined up and waiting" short of entering the runway. Anyway, learned something that evening.

I still don't understand why the hell they would want me on that runway sitting still. I mean if I'm holding short of the runway and they "clear me for departure, I'm going to taxi out and start making airspeed. What's the benefit (for them) of getting me out there and sitting still?
 
arkvet said:
I was flying VFR out of Memphis several months ago and was told to "line up and wait". Caught me off guard. Admittingly I don't fly into towered airports often. The controller got pretty ****y with me after just a few seconds when he noticed I was "lined up and waiting" short of entering the runway. Anyway, learned something that evening.

I still don't understand why the hell they would want me on that runway sitting still. I mean if I'm holding short of the runway and they "clear me for departure, I'm going to taxi out and start making airspeed. What's the benefit (for them) of getting me out there and sitting still?
Click to expand...
They want you ready to go once they clear you for takeoff. Line up and wait is not something new or unusual.
 
arkvet said:
What's the benefit (for them) of getting me out there and sitting still?
Click to expand...

Timing. When you "line up and wait" is is assumed you are gonna start pushing that throttle in as soon as you are cleared for takeoff vs from the hold short line where you still may need to close the window, note your time, adjust your visor, check your hair and pick your nose before you actually start rolling.
 
Shawn said:
Timing. When you "line up and wait" is is assumed you are gonna start pushing that throttle in as soon as you are cleared for takeoff vs from the hold short line where you still may need to close the window, note your time, adjust your visor, check your hair and pick your nose before you actually start rolling.
Click to expand...

There are times that I'm glad I didn't get a line up and wait though, as having the option to abort is nice. For example, those times when I get a "cleared for departure, please expedite, traffic on 1 mile final". In that situation I can decide, do I really want to rush or just abort?

That's probably happened to me when I get a line up and wait as well, but hey, I can't see what's back there and they usually don't tell me...ignorance is bliss eh?
 
At Phoenix Sky Harbor don't call the tower when you are ready to go, they will yell at you. Instead wait until they call you. Seems to work just fine.
 
arkvet said:
I was flying VFR out of Memphis several months ago and was told to "line up and wait". Caught me off guard. Admittingly I don't fly into towered airports often. The controller got pretty ****y with me after just a few seconds when he noticed I was "lined up and waiting" short of entering the runway. Anyway, learned something that evening.

I still don't understand why the hell they would want me on that runway sitting still. I mean if I'm holding short of the runway and they "clear me for departure, I'm going to taxi out and start making airspeed. What's the benefit (for them) of getting me out there and sitting still?
Click to expand...

The reason you are told to line up and wait is because they can't clear you for take off right away. Reasons can range from waiting for someone who just landed to exit the runway, vehicle to get off the runway, radar release or because of wake turbulence or radar separation from a previous departure. In any case, it is just to expedite traffic. Say I had someone on final and someone just landed. Rather than make you wait until the guy on final lands (and approach could put someone else right behind that guy so you're waiting forever) I'll put you on the runway to "wait" until the guy who just landed gets off the runway so I can clear you for takeoff before the guy on final lands.
 
Caramon13 said:
There are times that I'm glad I didn't get a line up and wait though, as having the option to abort is nice. For example, those times when I get a "cleared for departure, please expedite, traffic on 1 mile final". In that situation I can decide, do I really want to rush or just abort?

That's probably happened to me when I get a line up and wait as well, but hey, I can't see what's back there and they usually don't tell me...ignorance is bliss eh?
Click to expand...

They are required to tell you about landing traffic within 6 miles of the runway.
 
Caramon13 said:
Disagree with this. Even if I am #3 in line, I call up tower when I'm waiting in line. Why?

One example I can give you is where I had a jet in front of me and tower let me cut in front of them using a taxiway a bit further down the runway as an intersection departure. If they didn't know I was ready I'd be sitting there still waiting on the jet to move.

If there are a lot of folks in front of me, yeah I'll wait. But 2-3, nah, I check in and let them know I'm there and ready to go. Occasionally I will say #2 or #3, but most times I don't because the order is entirely the tower's discretion, not mine.
Click to expand...

I do not understand how tower will let you cut in front of jets to take an intersection departure.
I always thought that intersection departure has to be planned ahead of time and let the ground know when you are requesting taxi clearance.
 
blueskyMD said:
I do not understand how tower will let you cut in front of jets to take an intersection departure.
I always thought that intersection departure has to be planned ahead of time and let the ground know when you are requesting taxi clearance.
Click to expand...

Not for me..sometimes I'll be midway taxiing and ground will call me up and ask if I can take an intersection departure. Most times the answer is "yes".

I think to @midlifeflyer 's point, the jet in front of me was probably waiting on release for an IFR plan or something else. Doesn't happen often, but it did that time. Being ready and letting the tower know about it sometimes has its perks :).

Timbeck2 said:
They are required to tell you about landing traffic within 6 miles of the runway.
Click to expand...

And they do, I think it's more of a "visual thing". I hear 1 mile final and yeah that might be a while for a C162/172 however, there is sometimes a sense of urgency that (unless you're prepared for it) can mess with you.

I'm always ready at the end of the runway but there have been times when it's hot and I have the windows open, mixture leaned and I'm just trying to keep cool. In those situations a call like I mentioned can really slap you in the face. When you're actually ON the runway and waiting you can't exactly do the same thing since they expect you to go go go...
 
blueskyMD said:
I do not understand how tower will let you cut in front of jets to take an intersection departure.
I always thought that intersection departure has to be planned ahead of time and let the ground know when you are requesting taxi clearance.
Click to expand...

Not always. I just flew out of SJC and I was given an intersection departure with a line up and wait without request which allowed me depart before other departing and arriving big iron...then would also have to wait for wake turbulence. Another single ahead of me declined intersection and requested full length departure and I was wheels up well before he was. It was on a few hundred feet on 11,000' runway.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I've never understood why "line up and wait" was used to begin with. To me, it implies that you are getting in line behind someone, which isn't something that one would to on the runway. In fact, at my home field, they quit issuing position and hold instructions (as 'line up and wait') after the change in phraseology - probably because too many people were getting confused.
Click to expand...

Wasnt there a change as well about having to have enough people in the tower to allow a "into position and hold" (line up and wait). I mentioned it to my CFI last year and he said they need 2 (maybe more) people in the tower to make sure you dont screw up, etc. At KRYY it sounds like usually there is only 1 guy there. So no more "into position and hold". (yes its the old phraseology, but eff that euro line up and wait crap. 'Merica)
 
Zeldman said:
At Phoenix Sky Harbor don't call the tower when you are ready to go, they will yell at you. Instead wait until they call you. Seems to work just fine.
Click to expand...

I have encountered that at MSP myself. Once you make the initial call to CD, each frequency change comes with the phrase monitor ground/tower/etc. They will call you when they are ready. Actually expedited our departure greatly. We were airborne very quickly after leaving the FBO ramp.
 
ChemGuy said:
Wasnt there a change as well about having to have enough people in the tower to allow a "into position and hold" (line up and wait). I mentioned it to my CFI last year and he said they need 2 (maybe more) people in the tower to make sure you dont screw up, etc. At KRYY it sounds like usually there is only 1 guy there. So no more "into position and hold". (yes its the old phraseology, but eff that euro line up and wait crap. 'Merica)
Click to expand...


There is no requirement to have more than one controller to allow LUAW procedures. :nonod:
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have encountered that at MSP myself. Once you make the initial call to CD, each frequency change comes with the phrase monitor ground/tower/etc. They will call you when they are ready. Actually expedited our departure greatly. We were airborne very quickly after leaving the FBO ramp.
Click to expand...
Pretty standard at every big airport. At the smaller outstations sometimes I'll call holding short of the runway but most of the time they are ready for us and clear us without us asking.
 
Line up and wait is common at OSH. Once the aircraft ahead has started their turn out, they clear you for takeoff. Then, they cancel your takeoff clearance, you stomp on your brakes, look up to see an aircraft fly overhead and land in front of you! :eek:
 
ChemGuy said:
Wasnt there a change as well about having to have enough people in the tower to allow a "into position and hold" (line up and wait). I mentioned it to my CFI last year and he said they need 2 (maybe more) people in the tower to make sure you dont screw up, etc. At KRYY it sounds like usually there is only 1 guy there. So no more "into position and hold". (yes its the old phraseology, but eff that euro line up and wait crap. 'Merica)
Click to expand...

That I don't know.
 
Caramon13 said:
Not for me..sometimes I'll be midway taxiing and ground will call me up and ask if I can take an intersection departure. Most times the answer is "yes".
Click to expand...
Same here. Many times. At airports with l-o-n-g runways, we little pistons will often be asked if we want to sneak out ahead of the pack.

(Uh-oh! We may have started another war on the evils of intersection departures with only 7,000' of runway ahead of you!)
 
You should never do an intersection departure. Like the runway behind you...
 
midwestpa24 said:
I have encountered that at MSP myself. Once you make the initial call to CD, each frequency change comes with the phrase monitor ground/tower/etc. They will call you when they are ready. Actually expedited our departure greatly. We were airborne very quickly after leaving the FBO ramp.
Click to expand...
I think at the big ones, with all the airline traffic they are just used to aircraft not needing to run up after calling for taxi. Jets don't and there is often a run-up area located on the ramp for pistons. You are expected to be ready to go by the time you get onto the taxiway leading to the departure point. Even at towered airports with a lot of piston traffic, that's been SOP just about every time my runup was complete before taxi and I told Ground "we'll be ready to go at the end."
 
We're almost ready for "Ready to go IN SEQUENCE." ;)
 
When I get the "line up and wait" call I check final and move slower than normal. I usually get to the line when the tower clears me for takeoff so I don't have to stop.

When I contact ground for taxi instructions I tell them if I have completed my run-up (usually in the summer) and will be ready to go at the runway or I tell them I need to feed some heat to the engine and will do the run-up at the runway (usually in the winter).
 
luvflyin said:
There are some restrictions requiring an extra set of eyeballs between sunset and sunrise
Click to expand...

I thought it was for simultaneous daylight LUAW ops?
 
Ryanb said:
Yup, new phraseology. The 'new' term minimizes confusion between "position and hold" and "hold position."

'Position and hold' means the same as 'line up and wait' just different lingo.

Happy to hear you are well! Fly safe!

:)
Click to expand...
Nice thing about "line up and wait" over "taxi into position and hold" is you dont have to come to a full stop on the runway. Just keep it rolling and then step on the gas when they say "cleared." Best to communicate this though. "line up and wait, [runway number] I'll be rollin and ready, [call sign]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top