confirm you have....

jaybee

jaybee

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jaybee
seem to have a recent bout of "confirm you have..." from clearance and approach lately... what's going on with that ?

examples -

"clearance, 12345 is a cessna one five two with kilo vfr to south practice area "
"12345 remain vfr at or below 3 thousand, departure 123.45, squawk 0102, confirm you have kilo"

or

"approach, 12345 is 10 to the south full stop with xray"
"12345 squawk 0203 ident and confirm you have xray"

It's getting to be like, why do I even bother telling them I have it ?
 
I know your pain. I've noticed it a lot too. Probably 75% of the time I check in I have to confirm the ATIS.
 
Sometimes pilots talk so fast the ATC doesn't get everything. Maybe controllers should identify themselves as "student controllers" so we'll talk slower. ;)
 
First time you call up he's probably trying to make sure he's got your callsign right, after that anything you say is questionable. Writing, finding you on the scope, etc
 
When your in busy airspace,the controller usually is busy just getting your number and type right,so he can fit you in with the traffic. I'm getting used to confirming the atis more than once.
 
I've seen it on propilot forums in the past too.
"are they not listening?" "why do we even bother?"
"I say, 'And. With. Atis. Ex-er-ay.' -but they still ask again!"
.....are typical comments.
ATCers have no particular answer or solution...but point out similar pilot shortcomings!
 
I respond, Mr. Air Traffic Approach Control for Podunk Metropolitan Airport, I do indeed have and have listened to the ATIS broadcast nominated NO-VEM-BER, yessireebob. Gotcha:) Actually I usually say affirmative and shorten callsign, no big deal.
 
It is my perception that it doesn't happen any more frequently now than it did in the past.
 
It DOES seem however, that more and more airports are changing the ATIS every five minutes. I get ATIS, check in with approach, and it's already old. It changes twice more before landing.
 
Kritchlow said:
It DOES seem however, that more and more airports are changing the ATIS every five minutes. I get ATIS, check in with approach, and it's already old. It changes twice more before landing.
Click to expand...
Do you think that has something to do with the digital ATIS? I've noticed those changing more frequently than the manual ones.
 
They're doing more than you think when you first call in. Be cooperative.
 
Kritchlow said:
It DOES seem however, that more and more airports are changing the ATIS every five minutes. I get ATIS, check in with approach, and it's already old. It changes twice more before landing.
Click to expand...

This time of year with the wind gusts changing and again during monsoon season in the summer, we'll make quite a few an hour. It isn't fun for the controllers either. With the new computerized digital ATIS, they can get real finicky on what it will "take" when you type it in. There is a backup microphone to record it but it takes more time.
 
I run into that a lot, too. I now say, "...with INFORMATION Xray" Adding "information" seems to help but it's still not 100%.

I guess it's like when a controller gives me a heading, altitude, and frequency change all in one transmission. Sometimes I can only remember two of the three long enough to read them back.
 
I wonder if it might get pilots a bit better on the radio if they sit on the other side for a few minutes.

I did this for CAP, and it was quite the eye opener. I think I was probably the fastest radio operator in the room (I was the only pilot -- it makes a HUGE difference), but I was still very aware of just how fast pilots were rattling off stuff.

Cut the guys a little slack. It's A LOT harder than you think it is to get every last detail of some mumbling pilot blasting his radio call at supersonic speed.

And you might get better results if you did it in order. "With X-ray" is last.
 
Question here: I've always thought it was best, when first cold-calling and approach controller, or enroute ATC, I should just say something like, "Seattle approach, Skyhawk 1234 request" and wait for them to get back to me before launching into the full spiel. Is this not common?

I was told this gives them a chance to realize you're a new player and not a hand-off, so they're ready to listen to your request.
 
Maybe a bit of pressure is being applied from the top. They'll even say something like, "I need you to confirm X-Ray with your call sign", after having just given it. I repeat it a bit slower, and make sure the two are close together. 'Sucks when they say it with a bit of attitude though, I don't like being scolded for no reason.
 
In my case it's always a handoff. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't. Sometimes I forget to say it. It's also not necessarily clear when they want to know. In the US I think it's on your first handoff from center to approach. But there's an airport in Canada where I know that center will say "information Kilo is current" way out there, like when we cross the border 150 miles out.
 
Can't say I've seen a trend with ATIS Nazis. Checked into PDK tower a couple days ago and forgot to tell him I had the ATIS. Controller didn't say a word.
 
wilkersk said:
Question here: I've always thought it was best, when first cold-calling and approach controller, or enroute ATC, I should just say something like, "Seattle approach, Skyhawk 1234 request" and wait for them to get back to me before launching into the full spiel. Is this not common?
Click to expand...

You do not want to give you life story on the initial contact, but recommendation per AIM:

4-2-3. CONTACT PROCEDURES
a. Initial Contact -
1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
(a) Name of the facility being called;
(b) Your FULL aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed under Aircraft Call Signs below;
(c) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short, and
(d) the word "Over" if required.
EXAMPLES:
"NEW YORK RADIO, MOONEY THREE ONE ONE ECHO."
"COLUMBIA GROUND, CESSNA THREE ONE SIX ZERO FOXTROT, IFR MEMPHIS."
"MIAMI CENTER, BARON FIVE SIX THREE HOTEL, REQUEST VFR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES."
 
MAKG1 said:
I wonder if it might get pilots a bit better on the radio if they sit on the other side for a few minutes.

I did this for CAP, and it was quite the eye opener. I think I was probably the fastest radio operator in the room (I was the only pilot -- it makes a HUGE difference), but I was still very aware of just how fast pilots were rattling off stuff.

Cut the guys a little slack. It's A LOT harder than you think it is to get every last detail of some mumbling pilot blasting his radio call at supersonic speed.

And you might get better results if you did it in order. "With X-ray" is last.
Click to expand...

Wow, way to make a lot of assumptions.

I didn't talk bad about controllers I asked "what's going on with that ?"

This is the sub forum to ask controllers just that kind of question.

"With X-ray" is last.
Click to expand...
Good thought, got a reference for that ?
 
jaybee said:
Wow, way to make a lot of assumptions.

I didn't talk bad about controllers I asked "what's going on with that ?"

This is the sub forum to ask controllers just that kind of question.


Good thought, got a reference for that ?
Click to expand...

And I answered your question. Try this: set off your alarm clock, and talk on the phone with your significant other. Then turn on LiveATC and write down the next incoming transmission. THEN you can tell me my "assumption" that your copy will not be verbatim is wrong.

What's "up" with it is that it's a LOT harder than you think. So, cut the controllers a bit of slack.
 
MAKG1 said:
And I answered your question. Try this: set off your alarm clock, and talk on the phone with your significant other. Then turn on LiveATC and write down the next incoming transmission. THEN you can tell me my "assumption" that your copy will not be verbatim is wrong.

What's "up" with it is that it's a LOT harder than you think. So, cut the controllers a bit of slack.
Click to expand...
Not really... you made a lot of assumptions. Where did I give anyone a hard time ? When did I ever say their job wasn't hard ? on top of all that you assume I rattle my transmission off at auctioneer speed in a slurred language. This isn't an isolated event its been consistently occurring to pretty much everyone on frequency for a long enough while to take notice of it happening. Lastly, you state that "info xray" should be at the end as if it was a fact - do you have a reference for that ?

take your own advice, cut some slack and quit making assumptions - its your type of condescending assumption based posts that make coming here a total drag.
 
jaybee said:
Not really... you made a lot of assumptions. Where did I give anyone a hard time ? When did I ever say their job wasn't hard ? on top of all that you assume I rattle my transmission off at auctioneer speed in a slurred language. This isn't an isolated event its been consistently occurring to pretty much everyone on frequency for a long enough while to take notice of it happening. Lastly, you state that "info xray" should be at the end as if it was a fact - do you have a reference for that ?

take your own advice, cut some slack and quit making assumptions - its your type of condescending assumption based posts that make coming here a total drag.
Click to expand...

Pot, meet kettle. No one ever said you were unusual. TRY THE EXERCISE. Then, you'll understand. For now, you don't.

jaybee said:
It's getting to be like, why do I even bother telling them I have it ?
Click to expand...

That's not a hard time? Whatever.
 
When you know it's the last controller before tower, or non flight following/IFR initial call to tower, "Cessna 123 inbound with Alpha"

Always works well, sometimes if I forget they'll ask if I have the current weather notams and I'll respond "we have alpha".

Inbound leaving the atis freq on monitor is a good method, once you get close enough you'll start hearing the weather.
 
The most easily remembered items among a list spoken aloud, as in the case of a call to tower or approach, are the first and last items in the list. Therefore if you include the ATIS code at the end of your transmission on initial contact, it is more likely to be heard and remembered than when it is thrown into the middle of the transmission.

I attached two examples. The first is an exchange with Indy Approach and the second with Lafayette Tower. In neither case was I asked about receiving the weather again. In both cases I included the ATIS code at the end of the transmission.

Note if I were in something other than a C150 Commuter, I would state the model name to save time, avoiding the "Say type aircraft" exchange. Unfortunately in the midwest we have an operator called CommutAir which is often too easily confused with this C150's model name.
 

Attachments

  • ATIS-at-end Examples.zip
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MAKG1 said:
Pot, meet kettle. No one ever said you were unusual. Really ? "some mumbling pilot blasting his radio call at supersonic speed"


TRY THE EXERCISE. Then, you'll understand. For now, you don't.

Yea, I only fly out of Daytona, the busiest Class C in America on a daily basis as a commercial pilot. If you hadn't had the pleasure, you don't understand. Your exercise would be child's play in comparison to the radio chatter here.


That's not a hard time? Whatever.
Click to expand...

No, its called a question. That's why there is that little thing at the end of the sentence called a question mark.

Reread the first post, example 2 used had Info Xray at the end and example 1 was to clearance - both formatted to recommended standards for Daytona. The only bit of your advice that was even usable is already being used...
 
Common sense people common sense. Controllers at times have a lot going on. So what if you have to repeat informing them you have the latest ATIS. Not a big deal.
 
mscard88 said:
Common sense people common sense. Controllers at times have a lot going on. So what if you have to repeat informing them you have the latest ATIS. Not a big deal.
Click to expand...
You are expecting way too much (assuming there is such a thing as "common sense").
 
Just got the "confirm you have ATIS..." twice a few days ago. First with approach and then with ground. Gave it at the end of my transmission as well.

Need to make sure the pilot has the current landing / approach information but this might be a bit of over kill. Or at least, just lack of awareness on the controller's end. Even if the pilot didn't get the ATIS, runway, wind, altimeter and what approach to expect are probably going to be given anyway.
 
mscard88 said:
Common sense people common sense. Controllers at times have a lot going on. So what if you have to repeat informing them you have the latest ATIS. Not a big deal.
Click to expand...

Not a big deal at all. Just seemed to be happening more frequently recently. Just curious if there was a reason on the other side such as policy change. For example - it is now policy (at Daytona at least) to readback which taxiway you are crossing the runway at. "clear to 7R via Echo Sierra clear to cross 16 at Sierra". This is the sub-forum to ask controllers just these kinds of question is it not ?
 
Last edited:
Ground control would never say the word "clear" in that instance.

It would be more like "Taxi to runway 7R via echo sierra, cross runway 16 at sierra."
 
Yes, thanks.

I didn't have a question about policy change on taxi clearances, however I was originally curious if there was a policy change on "confirm you have info..." as it seemed to happen more regularly than normal.

That is all. Never said controllers weren't busy or were lazy. Never said it was a big deal. Just asked a stinking question out of curiosity. I'll be danged if in between charter flights and teaching students on the side that I try and further my knowledge to better answer my students questions.
 
Welcome to the world in internet forums Jeff. Be glad someone didn't hijack your thread into the best recipe for Bundt cake.

I made a comment that during my first annual that all of my fuel lines needed changed. More than one person said that it should have been caught on the pre-buy inspection. Yeah....that doesn't really....

Just roll with it Jeff and don't expect the answer you want because a lot of times you won't get it.
 
jaybee said:
Not a big deal at all. Just seemed to be happening more frequently recently. Just curious if there was a reason on the other side such as policy change. For example - it is now policy (at Daytona at least) to readback which taxiway you are crossing the runway at. "clear to 7R via Echo Sierra clear to cross 16 at Sierra". This is the sub-forum to ask controllers just these kinds of question is it not ?
Click to expand...

It's actually been going on for a long time. I think controllers just have a lot going on that you're not aware of, and just plain miss that a pilot said it the first time. Not trying to avoid answering your query, just what I think is going on. Your mileage may vary however. :D
 
exps4457_RX1577C47B.jpg


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