Completing kits for others.

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
The cost of a Van's RV-8A is near $35k, what would a completed kit be worth built as delivered. that is riveted together and ready to finish by the customer.
 
What would an amateur built aircraft that is not amateur built be worth?
 
Tom-D said:
The cost of a Van's RV-8A is near $35k, what would a completed kit be worth built as delivered. that is riveted together and ready to finish by the customer.
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Not quite sure I understand what you are asking. How much finishing by the customer do you envision?

There is, or was, a guy by the name of Lyle Hafel in Dubuque, IA that built RVs. He basically built one and flew it while he built another and sold the first one. Several times over. He does, or did excellent work.
 
Think any A&P could make a wage doing it?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Irrelevant question. Any aircraft not built by the factory is amateur built.
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The issue is certification. The rules for certification as Experimental Amateur-Built require the majority of the aircraft be constructed for education or recreation. The FAA may decide the for-hire homebuilt does not qualify, and thus it must be certified as other than Experimental Amateur-Built.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
The issue is certification. The rules for certification as Experimental Amateur-Built require the majority of the aircraft be constructed for education or recreation. The FAA may decide the for-hire homebuilt does not qualify, and thus it must be certified as other than Experimental Amateur-Built.

Ron Wanttaja
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Who is to say Tom is NOT doing it for his recreation? Especially if he flies it himself for a period of time before he sells it?

Now granted, if someone comes to Tom and hires him to build it, that might raise some eyebrows.
 
There seem to be two flavors of this:
- 'builder assistance' where one or more people do the work but the owner of the kit certifies that everyone worked under his supervision and claims the work as his own.
- 'serial builders' who buy kits, build them, register and test-fly them with their own name as the builder and sell once they are completed.

As to whether you can make a living doing it ? As a serial builder you are going to be much faster than the amateurs. You'll have a set of jigs and wont waste time on trying to figure out a particular step in the process. You wont have to wait for some part or tool to be shipped because you already have them in stock from your last build. With some practice, you can probably shave a lot of hours from the manufacturers estimates. You have to be comfortable with planes flying around that have you listed as the manufacturer, it probably helps to not own anything of value.

Now, I have never met you in person, so I may be completely off on this. But your 'online persona' is that of being a somewhat cantankerous older guy who isn't too much into the listening to others thing. You probably won't be too happy to provide 'builder assistance' to someone else. Otoh if you get into serial building, you can work at your own pace and the only time you have to talk to a customer is when you have them select the paintjob.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Who is to say Tom is NOT doing it for his recreation? Especially if he flies it himself for a period of time before he sells it?
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Tom has already put it on record, in another thread either here or on the Red Board, that he won't do it unless he's paid. Even his OP in this thread indicates that he wants to get paid. That ain't recreation, it's vocation, and from what I can tell Tom isn't interested in education.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Who is to say Tom is NOT doing it for his recreation? Especially if he flies it himself for a period of time before he sells it?
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Tom has already put it on record, in another thread either here or on the Red Board, that he won't do it unless he's paid. Even his OP in this thread indicates that he wants to get paid. That ain't recreation, it's vocation, and from what I can tell Tom isn't interested in education.
 
What it's worth is whatever the eventual owner is willing to pay. We all know there are quite a few people in the, ahem, "business" of building kits for others. Probably especially popular in the Van's world as RVs are the closest alternative to a factory built plane. Legal? Probably not, depending on the amount of work done by the pro and by the "builder". If not too blatant, I suspect the FAA turns a blind eye to the practice knowing that the plane is likely better built than if done by an inexperienced builder lacking the skills or interest to do it correctly. But if you hang your shingle out advertising kit build services, they may find it impossible to ignore.
 
By the time you add engine, avionics, interior and paint, you're looking at 80-90K. So after a couple of years of hard work, you might make 10 grand on the thing.
 
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Another thread where guys with no E-AB experience quote their interpretations of what the regulations mean. Oh, joy!
 
Tom-D said:
The cost of a Van's RV-8A is near $35k, what would a completed kit be worth built as delivered. that is riveted together and ready to finish by the customer.
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About $35k. RV's sell for the sum of the parts cost.
 
I know several people who build kit planes just to sell for a living or side job and do very well. Not sure how much profit there is though in selling half completed projects as most of those go for a discount over buying it from Vans.
 
Tom-D said:
The cost of a Van's RV-8A is near $35k, what would a completed kit be worth built as delivered. that is riveted together and ready to finish by the customer.
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Do you mean how much does a completed kit cost? If so, check Barnstormers, Trade-a-Plane, etc.

Of do you mean how much would a builder pay for someone else to do the work?

If that's it, there are a number of "builder assistance" type companies around. Check with them and that would give you a starting point.
 
Stewartb said:
Another thread where guys with no E-AB experience quote their interpretations of what the regulations mean. Oh, joy!
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The regulations are really pretty straightforward. The builder signs an affidavit that the aircraft was built for education and/or recreation; if he or she lies, it's perjury. The odds against getting caught are extremely low, which is the only thing that matters to some people.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Guys who are building need to talk to their DARs. That's what matters. Being a guy well into an E-AB project I have a good grasp on the subject.
 
wanttaja said:
The regulations are really pretty straightforward. The builder signs an affidavit that the aircraft was built for education and/or recreation; if he or she lies, it's perjury. The odds against getting caught are extremely low, which is the only thing that matters to some people.
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Doing is learning. Serial builders learn something new on every build. That's education, is it not? Also, some businesses are deemed to be hobbies by the IRS. A hobby business would be easily construed as recreation.

Parsing the regulations is a fun exercise all of it's own.

Now, the question of value of the completed plane is quite different. The price will be more than the sum of the parts, but is it worth the labor as a business model? Not likely.

Some people enjoy the build more than the flying, most enjoy the flying more than the build. The first group turn into serial builders and the other group get high time RV's. Both fine persuits. Then there's the group I fall in - I bought mine flying and all the work is done by an A&P. I'm not alone.
 
Tom-D said:
The cost of a Van's RV-8A is near $35k, what would a completed kit be worth built as delivered. that is riveted together and ready to finish by the customer.
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I hear a guy can make a small fortune doing this.....o_O
 
Brad Z said:
What would an amateur built aircraft that is not amateur built be worth?
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Probably more than a non amateur aircraft built by an amateur...
 
Tom, anytime you want to come over to Mount Vernon and critique my RV-8 build, I'll buy lunch and gas money!
 
Anymouse said:
Tom has already put it on record, in another thread either here or on the Red Board, that he won't do it unless he's paid. Even his OP in this thread indicates that he wants to get paid. That ain't recreation, it's vocation, and from what I can tell Tom isn't interested in education.
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I don't read the Red Board, but from what I see here, he hasn't committed that far yet.

It boils down, I think, to whether he takes money *in advance* of the kit purchase. If he buys the kit himself, builds it, and sells it, he can then legitimately claim to have built the plane for recreational purposes. He'd be little different from many serial builders, such as Tony Bingelis.

In other words, I think he can build it "on spec" with little certification problems.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
I don't read the Red Board, but from what I see here, he hasn't committed that far yet.

It boils down, I think, to whether he takes money *in advance* of the kit purchase. If he buys the kit himself, builds it, and sells it, he can then legitimately claim to have built the plane for recreational purposes. He'd be little different from many serial builders, such as Tony Bingelis.

In other words, I think he can build it "on spec" with little certification problems.

Ron Wanttaja
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I can preform any service the owner wants and it is legal.
I can also buy a kit put it together to any extent I choose and sell it, and it is legal.
What I can not Do, is manufacturer a completed aircraft and sell it as a new one. Or complete a kit for you.

And Yes I am allowed to make a profit doing it.
 
wanttaja said:
The regulations are really pretty straightforward. The builder signs an affidavit that the aircraft was built for education and/or recreation; if he or she lies, it's perjury. The odds against getting caught are extremely low, which is the only thing that matters to some people.

Ron Wanttaja
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As long as the owner supervises the build, they can claim the builder status. there is no rule that says other wise.
 
I often bounce ideas off you guys, So don't make any assumptions about my intentions.
 
Tom-D said:
Show me a cheap Glass-Air lll retract
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There is a high time GAIII on barnstormers right now for like 75k. I would call that cheap considering the kit almost cost that much. There is also an un started kit on BS for like 25k which is a bargain.
 
wanttaja said:
I don't read the Red Board, but from what I see here, he hasn't committed that far yet.

It boils down, I think, to whether he takes money *in advance* of the kit purchase. If he buys the kit himself, builds it, and sells it, he can then legitimately claim to have built the plane for recreational purposes. He'd be little different from many serial builders, such as Tony Bingelis.

In other words, I think he can build it "on spec" with little certification problems.

Ron Wanttaja
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Found it! And you responded in that thread as well...

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/im-looking-for-another-project.46447/
 
Grum.Man said:
There is a high time GAIII on barnstormers right now for like 75k. I would call that cheap considering the kit almost cost that much. There is also an un started kit on BS for like 25k which is a bargain.
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There's two opportunities to spend a 100K
 
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