Commute by Plane?

[mercurial]

Hi All,

I'm not a pilot (yet), but have always wanted to get licensed, and have sufficient discretionary income to do so. I live in the SF Bay Area, and traffic gets worse every year, and sometimes when it's really bad my commute is over 2 hours each way! it recently occurred to me that I am geographically situated to potentially fly a plane to work, perhaps 2-3 days a week.

I live about 1 mile from a decently sized private airport, and my destination airport is 37.5 miles away, but possibly traversing takeoff and landing flight corridors for OAK/SFO/SJC international airports. My destination airport is around 1-2 miles from my final destination, so I'd bring along a foldup bike (or maybe an electric skateboard ) for that final part. Would I be able to pull this off for $800-$1000 per month?

I'm guessing I would need to become a partial owner of a plane, and I'm sure that the feasibility of this is really dependent upon local conditions and airplane availability; but I'm curious if there are any obvious gotchas or concerns that I need to take into account? Any thoughts/added color is greatly appreciated.

 

[weilke]

You would have to own the plane outright.

Yes this has been done. The approach corridors etc. probably wont be an issue as you can remain below them. As long as you have the option of driving if the weather is bad, this can be done. I commuted 90miles to work as a fresh PPL, but I kept an old car at the work location which allowed me to drive home if the weather didn't cooperate. It was a lot of fun while I was able to do it.

I know bay traffic can be awful, but to beat a direct drive timewise, you will need to have the logistics in place to do this without any delay. A simple plane on a tiedown (like a C150 or 152), a car parked at the tiedown spot, a way to get in and out of the airport without having to wait for anyone to open a gate etc.

 

[mercurial]

You would have to own the plane outright.

Y

Can you elaborate on that? It seems to me like I would be using the plane for only part of the week, and probably during non-peak times of use. Is there a reason why I couldn't co-own a plane with 2-3 other pilots and make this work?

My days are flexible, just thinking 2-3 days M-F, with potentially different days for different weeks.

 

[evapilotaz]

Get one of those flying cars.

 

[rbridges]

Can you elaborate on that? It seems to me like I would be using the plane for only part of the week, and probably during non-peak times of use. Is there a reason why I couldn't co-own a plane with 2-3 other pilots and make this work?

My days are flexible, just thinking 2-3 days M-F, with potentially different days for different weeks.

he may be thinking about availability, and some places charge a minimum # of hours per rental day.

 

[NJP_MAN]

I think you could co-own. In fact I have commuted from Mesa Gateway to Scottsdale many times. It was fun being able to taxi up, pull the plane into the hangar and be at work.

 

[weilke]

Can you elaborate on that? It seems to me like I would be using the plane for only part of the week, and probably during non-peak times of use. Is there a reason why I couldn't co-own a plane with 2-3 other pilots and make this work?

Because:

- you would be flying about 5 times as much as any of your partners in a recreational plane
- there will be weekends when the plane is stranded at your 'work' airport because the bay was fogged in on thursday when you wanted to return and you didn't have time to retrieve it on friday
- when you get in the plane on tuesday, you want to have everything in exactly the place you left it on friday. If you have to start hunting for something one of your partners took out of your plane (like your headset), it gets old in a hurry.


In the bay area, your tiedown fees alone for two airports are going to eat a chunk of your stated budget. Financially, this will never make much sense.

 

[mercurial]

Thanks for the added color.

It seems like making it a Monday-Wednesday solution would at least partially address some of your concerns. Regarding tie-down fees, is that something you have to pay at both airports? I was hoping that my destination airport would have "guest" slots that I would be free to occupy, provided I left the same day. I have no problem leaving my crappy truck at the Palo Alto airport, but I do wonder if the airport would allow that. Re: 5x usage; are you basing that figure on flight time, or just time that the plane is simply not available to others? I honestly have no idea how often most people fly, but it seems like a crying waste of a capital asset if my ~ 220 weekly miles of flight are 5x everyone else's.

I know it doesn't sound like it makes financial sense, but consider this... Commuting by plane allows me to live in a $800k house that, closer to work, would probably cost twice as much.

 

[mercurial]

he may be thinking about availability, and some places charge a minimum # of hours per rental day.

Yes, that was my concern if I were to go the route of a larger flight club. But if you co-own a single plane with a small group of people, it seems like the rules would be whatever you and your fellow owners want them to be?

 

[ronnieh]

What everybody is trying to gently tell you is that anything is possible. The chance of it working short of outright ownership is on par with the proverbial snowball's chance ...
Owning the plane outright could be made to work but, you could probably own the $1.6 million house cheaper.

 

[weilke]

Regarding tie-down fees, is that something you have to pay at both airports?

If you want a place to park your car right on the airport, you are going to need that second tiedown. Also has your tiedown ropes at the right length just laying there and you are buttoned up within 5 minutes of landing.

I was hoping that my destination airport would have "guest" slots that I would be free to occupy, provided I left the same day.

Some airports or fixed base operators charge for daily parking, many dont.

I have no problem leaving my crappy truck at the Palo Alto airport, but I do wonder if the airport would allow that.

I dont know about Palo Alto, but at many airports in resort areas, there is a whole row of cars with out of state plates parked in the tall grass waiting for the absentee owners to fly in.

Re: 5x usage; are you basing that figure on flight time, or just time that the plane is simply not available to others?

Flight time. You do that on 150 work days per year, you are going to fly 200hrs for that use alone. Many recreationally used planes dont see more than 50 hrs/year per user.

I honestly have no idea how often most people fly, but it seems like a crying waste of a capital asset if my ~ 220 weekly miles of flight are 5x everyone else's.

It is. But rather than going in as partners with someone, consider allowing someone to use your plane for a specified contribution to your fixed and variable expenses (non-equity-partner). That way you retain scheduling priority and control over the plane but you can reduce your fixed expenses somewhat.

I know it doesn't sound like it makes financial sense, but consider this... Commuting by plane allows me to live in a $800k house that, closer to work, would probably cost twice as much.

You are already displaying the required ability to lie to yourself that is required to be a pilot or aircraft owner. You'll fit in just fine

 

[mercurial]

Haha fair enough. Well I appreciate all the input anyway, even if it does burst my bubble a bit. I was sort of hoping that I could work something out that allows me to sneak into my plan with minimal upfront overhead, but it sounds like that's a pipe dream.

 

[weilke]

It seems like making it a Monday-Wednesday solution would at least partially address some of your concerns.

Sure, about 3 months in, your partner had to leave the plane in Truckee on sunday because the winds were too high to return. You dont find out until monday morning when you look at the empty tiedown because it was 1am until he got home in the one way rental and forgot to call you.

 

[weilke]

Haha fair enough. Well I appreciate all the input anyway, even if it does burst my bubble a bit. I was sort of hoping that I could work something out that allows me to sneak into my plan with minimal upfront overhead, but it sounds like that's a pipe dream.

Your minimal overhead for doing this alone is going to be something like a Grumman trainer for $18,000.

Ongoing cost:

- tiedown Palo Alto
- tiedown whereveritisyouareliving
- $800/year for insurance
- 200hrs on a 2400hr engine (approx 2000/year)
- $1000 for annual inspection
- 1200Gal of Avgas =$6,600

That is absolute minimum if nothing breaks and you fly this VFR without the need to maintain a IFR capable plane.

Pipe dreams are what propel aviation.

 

[DesertNomad]

I know it doesn't sound like it makes financial sense, but consider this... Commuting by plane allows me to live in a $800k house that, closer to work, would probably cost twice as much.

Move to Reno and that same house is $200K. You could buy a brand new C182 for the difference.

 

[rbridges]

In the bay area, your tiedown fees alone for two airports are going to eat a chunk of your stated budget. Financially, this will never make much sense.

Owning the plane outright could be made to work but, you could probably own the $1.6 million house cheaper.

agree with both of you guys 10,000%, but if you're going to own a plane anway, it may not be a bad idea. Planes very rarely make financial sense, but the idea of staying out of rush hour traffic sounds like it might save some money with therapy.

 

[FORANE]

As others are hinting at, this is not like just getting in a car and going.

Are the 2-3 days a week you are planning to fly set days and times? Could you decide at the last minute to not go that day or show up a couple hours late? There will be days the weather will not cooperate. There will be days you will be tempted to fly in lousy conditions. This sort of pressure doesn't always end well.

How much time will it take to get to the airport, secure your ride to the airport, do preflight planning, get a legal weather briefing, preflight the airplane, untie the plane, contact ground, taxi, contact tower, line up and wait, get airborne out of your departure field, get vectored, contact departure, fly to destination, get ATIS, contact approach, get vectored, contact tower, land, contact ground, taxi to parking, call the tower because they said possible pilot deviation and gave you a phone number, tie down the plane, get your ride to work, etc...

You will have fees at 2 airports for either hangar or tie downs. You will spend thousands getting licensed. You may need to pass a medical. You will need to buy a plane, and I agree you will need to own it outright or there will likely be scheduling issues at the very least. You will spend thousands on annual inspections. There will be unforeseen 4-5 figure maintenance bills that pop up from time to time.

Driving sucks, I understand. I use my plane to commute though it is not a daily commute. In your case the benefit just doesn't seem to outweigh the risk and cost. Isn't there a BART or something else that would be an option?

 

[mercurial]

My commute is sometimes breaching 2.5 hours, each way. And get this, it's still often 2 hours if I leave work at 7:30 PM!

Looks like Palo Alto 4-8 hours tie-down is $4, so $50/mo. Tie-down at Buchanon for taxi-in outside parking is around $100/mo. "Landing fee" is $16 so $192/mo (is this for real?! wtf!) Weilke taking your numbers with these, that's $14,500 per year! That's right on target! almost!

Desertnomad I hear your logic, but unfortunately I just don't think I could do Reno. Sorry, I'm just too much of a California **** to be able to handle that.

 

[mercurial]

As others are hinting at, this is not like just getting in a car and going.

Are the 2-3 days a week you are planning to fly set days and times? Could you decide at the last minute to not go that day or show up a couple hours late? There will be days the weather will not cooperate. There will be days you will be tempted to fly in lousy conditions. This sort of pressure doesn't always end well.

<snip>

Yes I have extreme flexibility. My schedule is not fixed at all, I come and go whenever I please. I know that sounds a bit ludicrous, but it's true. BART is not an option, the company runs private buses but again, it's just too slow. I want more of my life back! And while I'm at it, if I want to come home by flying up the coast, I damn well want to do that, too!

An upfront cost of $40k for plane+training is not what I'd prefer, but I can digest it, if necessary. I'm only 33 so medical won't be an issue. One point you and Weilke make is the time to get into the air; you're right, that's a concern, and I don't know what to expect there. But I do live about a mile away from the airport and it won't take me more than 5 minutes to get there.

 

[weilke]

If you are based at the airport, there is not going to be a landing fee. Parking the car at Palo Alto may be an issue if you dont have a tiedown there.

Doesnt look like PAO allows you to leave a car at the tiedown. Check with them whether youcan leave one in the lot. Or get a plane big enoughto carry a fold up scooter .

 

[pericynthion]

While living in Berkeley and working in Santa Cruz, I commuted in my VariEze from OAK to WVI two round trips a week, for a few months. It was pretty fun. In terms of door-to-door time, it was about equal to driving, mostly because both airports were some distance from home/work. But much more satisfying than sitting in traffic.

 

[FORANE]

Yes I have extreme flexibility. My schedule is not fixed at all, I come and go whenever I please.

So how about schedule 3 consecutive days per week. Is there a hotel walking distance from work? You will need a hotel for 2 nights per week. Work a deal with the hotel for a discounted rate, take the money you would spend on all this transportation and eliminate your commute. You can get up later and be more refreshed / relaxed.

 

[flyingron]

I knew a guy who commuted by plane from somewhere east into RHV I think every day.

There's at least one board member here that commuted to work at ORD in a Cessna 140 everyday.

 

[dans2992]

Pick up a C152. Probably less than $20k and cheap as hell to operate. You'll want to get your instrument rating also given the Bay Area fog...

 

[James331]

Sure, get the right plane for it though, something like a wittman (W-8 or W-10), cheap to buy, cheap to operate and FAST

Buy one for +/- 20k, 150hp, go 140kts

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittman_Tailwind

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepTailwind.html

I would invest in a instrument rating and a GNS430W for it though, if you're going to be using it day to day for commuting. Maybe put in a dynon skyview too.

 

[FORANE]

Sure, get the right plane for it though, something like a rearwind (W-8 or W-10), cheap to buy, cheap to operate and FAST

Buy one for +/- 20k, 150hp, go 140kts

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittman_Tailwind

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepTailwind.html

I would invest in a instrument rating and a GNS430W for it though, if you're going to be using it day to day for commuting. Maybe put in a dynon skyview too.

If he got the plane in the pic for daily commuting it would not be long before he needed a new prop too.

 

[weilke]

On a 17min flight, speed is irrelevant. A 152 or grumman a1b is as good as any.

Do this for 3 months and twr will give you 'the usual' the moment they see your prop turning.

 

[James331]

speed is irrelevant

Said no pilot ever

Besides why not get more for the same money?


If he's going to bother buying a plane, might be nice to have something that can go a tolerable speed if he ever moves, or decides to use the plane for a little trip. Also being a experimental he can put something in like a dynon and have a AWSOME panel for very little money.

Everything he needs to know right on one big screen

 

[cirrusmx]

this commute sounds like the job for a robinson!!!

many airports dont charge you to park as long as you constantly buy fuel for them

 

[flyingron]

The W-8 and W-10 are Wittman Tailwinds.

You're confusing the name with the Rearwin Speedster (not rearwind), a 30's era certificated aircraft.

 

[mercurial]

Thanks for all the comments guys, keep it coming. What's the deal with buying an experimental plane? In practical terms, is that signifier more of a technicality, than anything else?

Forane, I tried doing the rent a room thing awhile ago. Unfortunately, it's like being on a business trip every week, which sucks, with the addition that it's on your own dime. I want to sleep in my own bed and see my kids/wife every night, and I'd like to have a new hobby and be able to turn my commute into something I look forward to.

 

[weilke]

this commute sounds like the job for a robinson!!!

Sure, at 6 times the capital investment, multiples in insurance and an airframe overhaul every 10 years, sounds like a real winner on a 12k/year budget

Does google offer a shuttle to pick up employees at kpao ? How much is a cab ? For a daily fare, your cabby is going to wait at the back gate.

 

[mercurial]

Sure, at 6 times the capital investment, multiples in insurance and an airframe overhaul every 10 years, sounds like a real winner on a 12k/year budget

Does google offer a shuttle to pick up employees at kpao ? How much us a cab ? For a daily fare, your cabby is going to wait at the back gate.

I could try to use the campus pickup service, or maybe an Uber. But it might make sense to buy an electric folding bike.

http://www.nycewheels.com/a2b-kuo-electric-folding-bike.html

I could just leave it in the plane. To get from PAO to my building, I just need to follow a sparsely used frontage road for a few miles.

 

[comanchepilot]

I'm thinking hoverboard. . . .

But seriously - the flying part is simple- but will you really save any time? I run down to Sandy Eggo regularly. Its about 2 hours from my house to the hotel - by car. Pretty reliable since there is always traffic somewhere - so its about 2 hours. From the time I get in my car, until I get to the hotel flying is about 1 hr 45 min. Now, is it completely less stressful to do it by air? Absolutely - but the time savings is negligible.

Go do it for a month. You'll need a close by IFR approach so you can scud run to the private airport, assuming the owner lets you use it.

If you have the spare cash, you can prob afford a scooter - use that for the 'last mile' transport - or a motor cycle. I'd recommend a motorcycle because when you have the inevitable unreliable dispatch you can still get home. or, leave a bag with a change of clothes and preferred toiletries in the airplane for that eventuality.

Cut a deal with the FBO at the destination spot for fuel and parking. Make sure the guy whose private airport you fly from also get goodies from you regularly.

 

[comanchepilot]

PS: Any problems with experimentals and Class B airspace?

 

[mercurial]

Here is the possible breakdown, as near as I can tell:

Home to airport: 5 minutes (no joke)
Walking to plane, prepping plane, taxiing: 10 minutes (?)
Flight time: 25 minutes
parking plane, egressing airport: 10 minutes (?)
airport to office: 10 minutes (assume average speed of 30 mph on thinly trafficked road with only 1 light)

total time door to door, 1 hour. The key point here, is that the home->airport and airport->office legs are really, really short and easy. Right now it's taking me minimum 2 hours drive if I work offset hours, often 2.5 if I brave peak traffic.

 

[jordane93]

I'm thinking hoverboard. . . .

But seriously - the flying part is simple- but will you really save any time? I run down to Sandy Eggo regularly. Its about 2 hours from my house to the hotel - by car. Pretty reliable since there is always traffic somewhere - so its about 2 hours. From the time I get in my car, until I get to the hotel flying is about 1 hr 45 min. Now, is it completely less stressful to do it by air? Absolutely - but the time savings is negligible.

Go do it for a month. You'll need a close by IFR approach so you can scud run to the private airport, assuming the owner lets you use it.

If you have the spare cash, you can prob afford a scooter - use that for the 'last mile' transport - or a motor cycle. I'd recommend a motorcycle because when you have the inevitable unreliable dispatch you can still get home. or, leave a bag with a change of clothes and preferred toiletries in the airplane for that eventuality.

Cut a deal with the FBO at the destination spot for fuel and parking. Make sure the guy whose private airport you fly from also get goodies from you regularly.

This is what I was thinking as well. It probably won't save you much time

 

[weilke]

Said no pilot ever

Besides why not get more for the same money?

Says me. I did the commute in a Pa28-140 and a comanche. Door-door 5min difference.

The 152 was called 'commuter' for a reason. You want a plane that any left handed 10 thumb mechanics apprentice can fix for couple of $$ in cash.




If

 

[StinkBug]

All you guys saying that a partnership is impossible might be overstating things a bit. IMHO it's just a matter of finding the right partner. Most working folk like to fly on the weekends, which is opposite of his schedule. Find someone who just wants to fly weekends and it can be worked out. Yeah there may be a time or 2 when the plane gets stranded because of weather, but it's probably gonna be a very rare occurrence and shouldn't be a deal breaker. He's gonna get stuck by weather himself at some point no matter what. It happens. If an alternate mode of transportation is available and the hours are flexible, I dont see a huge issue here. There are negatives to having a partner for sure, but if you're on a budget you just have to weigh for yourself if the positives and negatives put you in a better place than being in it solo.

The hard part is finding the partner who is on the same page. That wont be easy, but it is possible.

I agree with the guys that say it wont save much time. Probably 15min at the most if you're lucky, but I think everyone here will agree that flying is more fun than sitting in traffic in a car so the tradeoff is enjoyment and lower stress level. If I lived and worked that close to 2 airports I'd try to make it work just to make life more enjoyable.

 

[rbridges]

Here is the possible breakdown, as near as I can tell:

Home to airport: 5 minutes (no joke)
Walking to plane, prepping plane, taxiing: 10 minutes (?)
Flight time: 25 minutes
parking plane, egressing airport: 10 minutes (?)
airport to office: 10 minutes (assume average speed of 30 mph on thinly trafficked road with only 1 light)

total time door to door, 1 hour. Right now it's taking me minimum 2 hours if I work offset hours, often 2.5 if I brave peak traffic.

the time you spend at the airport will probably be longer. I don't know how long it takes to get clearance and taxi to position before you actually hit the skies. Is your route direct from airport to airport?

Personally, I'd rather spend 2 hours prepping/flying than 2 hours driving. I know I'd be in a better mood when I got home that night. As long as you can justify the expense.