Commute by Plane?

[StinkBug]

Here is the possible breakdown, as near as I can tell:

Home to airport: 5 minutes (no joke)
Walking to plane, prepping plane, taxiing: 10 minutes (?)
Flight time: 25 minutes
parking plane, egressing airport: 10 minutes (?)
airport to office: 10 minutes (assume average speed of 30 mph on thinly trafficked road with only 1 light)

total time door to door, 1 hour. The key point here, is that the home->airport and airport->office legs are really, really short and easy. Right now it's taking me minimum 2 hours drive if I work offset hours, often 2.5 if I brave peak traffic.

You're underestimating all the plane times. Preflight will take you at least 10 min and that's if you're really glossing through things. 15 if you actually wanna look the thing over reasonably well. Startup, clearance, taxi and runup are another 10 minimum. If you're flying 37miles it's gonna be at least 30-35min of flying since you're gonna have to climb, and work a flight pattern. Taxi and tie down and putting the plane away is more like 15.

In other words add 30min to what you just estimated at a bare minimum and that's if the plane is already fueled and everything goes smoothly and you dont have to wait for any other traffic at either airport.

Being so close on each end gives you the optimal setup to do this, but getting a plane ready and into the air takes a bit of time, and short legs like this dont really allow you to exploit the full speed of a plane, which is why guys are saying it doesn't matter how fast the plane is. You're gonna spend a lot of the flying time either climbing at reduced speed, or at reduced power and speed for the traffic pattern and descent to land.

 

[StinkBug]

PS: Any problems with experimentals and Class B airspace?

not if they have the required equipment, which they would need within the 30nm Mode C veil anyhow. I hear RV's going in and out of the SAN Bravo all the time.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Yes I have extreme flexibility. My schedule is not fixed at all, I come and go whenever I please. I know that sounds a bit ludicrous, but it's true. BART is not an option, the company runs private buses but again, it's just too slow.

Salesforce.com?

 

[comanchepilot]

The issue with Experimentals is that the operating limitations need to have a cleared for ops in Class Bravo airspace in the limitations - I know thats pretty common but its something you need to verify unlike a certified aircraft.

The time you forget about when flying is from engine start to take off and then again from landing to walking away. There is a lot more time sucked up in those activities than any of us want to admit. From Engine start to take off is ALWAYS at least 10 min - so its now 1hr and 10 - then its 10 min from shutdown to drive off - you need to shut down, secure the aircraft, chocks, tie down, bathroom, verifying the fuel you want to purchase, unlock the bike, etc etc etc. And thats about 10 min too - so now you are 1hr 20 min. Which is the real world ends up as 90 min or so - that prob your normal commute time with the 2 hour trip being the Thursday and Friday nite trip home.

If you intend to operate in the morning - your take off location is obviously outside the bay fog zone, right?

But how do you land at night 6 months of the year? Is the private airport lighted? Or do you have really short days?

I'm not saying don't do it - I just want you to understand that the time savings might be less than you think - the costs higher - but the convenience factors much higher! Definitely a better mood!

 

[James331]

Says me. I did the commute in a Pa28-140 and a comanche. Door-door 5min difference.

The 152 was called 'commuter' for a reason. You want a plane that any left handed 10 thumb mechanics apprentice can fix for couple of $$ in cash.




If

And buck per mile the W-10 will be less expensive than the 152, no matter what they call it.


Seen plenty of RVs and the like in bravo

 

[weilke]

And buck per mile the W-10 will be less expensive than the 152, no matter what they call it.

Sure, you gonna leave a wood wing and fabric plane sitting out for a couple of years, it's going to be really cheap. Maybe you can get something for the engine core.

 

[James331]

Sure, you gonna leave a wood wing and fabric plane sitting out for a couple of years, it's going to be really cheap. Maybe you can get something for the engine core.

You fly or own any rag wings, with modern fabric?

Leave any plane out in salty air for years and it's not going to be good, I've seen a plenty of metal aircraft with plenty of corrosion too, what's your point?

 

[hook_dupin]

Sure, you gonna leave a wood wing and fabric plane sitting out for a couple of years, it's going to be really cheap. Maybe you can get something for the engine core.

I have both a Citabria and a Champ. The hanger on my Citabria runs almost $530 a month. I'm almost convinced that if I tied it down and invested the savings, I'd have enough funds for a recover and any fuselage repair in 10 years' time.

 

[mercurial]

Yes, take-off is outside the bay fog zone, thankfully. Looking at a website, here are the lights for my home airport:

Actvt MALS Rwy 19r 2200-0600 - 119.7. VASI Ry Ry 01l, 19r and 32r Oper Continuously. REIL Ry 01l Off When ATCT Clsd

I don't know what that means, but as far as private airports are concerned, I think it's actually on the bigger side.

http://www.aopa.org/airports/KCCR

Maybe the frequency of the trips will lead to some additional efficiencies (ground staff at Palo Alto knows my habit and just refill accordingly, as weilke suggests, towers clear me quickly because I'm a regular fixture, etc?)

I lie to myself and others and say that my commute is 90 minutes to make me feel better, but it's actually an honest minimum of 2 hours each way off-peak hours, even on the lighter days. Peak is 2.5, and Thurs/Fri off-peak is closer to 2.5 hours also. So there is also some value in being able to leave at 5 PM, instead of waiting and killing time until 7:30 PM.

 

[weilke]

I have both a Citabria and a Champ. The hanger on my Citabria runs almost $530 a month. I'm almost convinced that if I tied it down and invested the savings, I'd have enough funds for a recover and any fuselage repair in 10 years' time.

At that price for hangar-space and relative to the price older experimentals go, you could buy one every five years, wait until the wing rots off, discard what is left and get a different one.

 

[KLRDMD]

I'm not a pilot (yet), but have always wanted to get licensed, and have sufficient discretionary income to do so. I live in the SF Bay Area, and traffic gets worse every year, and sometimes when it's really bad my commute is over 2 hours each way! it recently occurred to me that I am geographically situated to potentially fly a plane to work, perhaps 2-3 days a week.

I commute to work via my airplane regularly but my commute is a bit different than your potential one. Two to three times a month I fly from Tucson (KAVQ) to Los Angeles (KSMO). I work in LA three to five days at a time and then fly home. My house is in Tucson and I have an apartment in Marina del Rey. I have been doing this for the last few months in a Twin Comanche, an airplane that I bought specifically for this commute. But a couple of months ago I decided I should downsize, pick up true airspeed and lower fuel burn at the expense of losing one engine and a bunch of useful load.

For my commute, just me with one small bag, it made sense to downsize. [My Twin Comanche is now for sale] I bought a Lancair 235/320 for the commute and tomorrow will be my first day flying that airplane to SMO. It will be a tad over two hours to LA and a bit under two hours (with vectors, on the low altitude airways, etc.) coming home. And I'll do it on less than 20 gallons (less than $100 in fuel) each way.

I have a hangar at AVQ and I pay a nightly tie down at SMO ($10/night, first night fee waived with any fuel purchase). I could have a monthly tie down for a few dollars more a month. An Uber from SMO to my apartment is about $7.

In the event of bad weather, there's always Southwest. It works for my needs.

 

[weilke]

Yes, take-off is outside the bay fog zone, thankfully. Looking at a website, here are the lights for my home airport:

Actvt MALS Rwy 19r 2200-0600 - 119.7. VASI Ry Ry 01l, 19r and 32r Oper Continuously. REIL Ry 01l Off When ATCT Clsd

I don't know what that means, but as far as private airports are concerned, I think it's actually on the bigger side.

You would have a localizer approach down to 440ft at a visibility of 3/4 mile.

That would probably a good day to drive.

Or stay at a hotel to stay away from the fools on the road.






Of course, all that only means something if you get your instrument rating. To fly this route on instruments, you need to budget for a more expensive aircraft, chart and database subscriptions and a lot longer flight times while performing the flight under instrument rules.

 

[James331]

At that price for hangar-space and relative to the price older experimentals go, you could buy one every five years, wait until the wing rots off, discard what is left and get a different one.

Lol

Dude its rain/mist not battery acid and nails falling from the sky.

PLENTY of folks in AK seem to do just fine leaving their rag wings out, and they ain't scrapping perfectly good airframes ever couple years

Same with older AG planes (cats, Pawnees, braves etc), and they are around considerably more damaging fluids then ocean mist.

Plane I leaned to fly in was a a rag wing with a wood spar, it had a t hangar (just a roof no walls, in the PNW. It has been hangared that way since before you were probably born, its flown almost everyday and seems to be doing just fine on 100hr and annual inspections, think the fabric has a decade or two on it and is just fine.

I could go on.

 

[weilke]

PLENTY of folks in AK seem to do just fine leaving their rag wings out, and they ain't scrapping perfectly good airframes ever couple years

They usually wreck the plane way before corrosion could take hold.

Same with older AG planes (cats, Pawnees, braves etc), and they are around considerably more damaging fluids then ocean mist.

Who is talking ocean mist ? Neither of these airports is anywhere close to surf.

It is not the fabric or the tubes I would worry about, it is the wooden spars.

 

[James331]

What's your rag wing / wood spar experince?

Lots of em in AK that have been around longer than ether of us, the plane in the PNW is in a wet climate and its been doing fine since it was new in the late 40s.

 

[weilke]

What's your rag wing / wood spar experince?

Lots of em in AK that have been around longer than ether of us, the plane in the PNW is in a wet climate and its been doing fine since it was new in the late 40s.

You are telling a prospective pilot that an obscure hard to find (and hard to sell) experimental is just the ticket for him to cut his teeth commuting to work. Makes perfect sense, if you dont think about it.

That or a helicopter....

 

[weilke]

What's your rag wing / wood spar experince?

Helping someone to remove the carcass of his plane after a wet snow took off the wings after it had been parked outside for a couple of years.

 

[James331]

Uh huh, so have you ever owned and maintained a fabric plane?




I'm saying for someone to commute, a 140kt plane that burns less per nm than a cessna 150, a plane that can be worked on for less and upgraded easily and cheaply due to it being experimental, that makes sense.

The guy isn't looking to flip the plane, but... I've also never seen a W-10 on the market for very long, should he decide to sell it, I doubt he'd have much trouble.

 

[DesertNomad]

ome to airport: 5 minutes (no joke)
Walking to plane, prepping plane, taxiing: 10 minutes (?)
Flight time: 25 minutes
parking plane, egressing airport: 10 minutes (?)

To preflight and taxi is going to be more than 10 minutes. Figure more like 20. I figure 30 minutes from first stepping onto the ramp to wheels up.

 

[pericynthion]

The issue with Experimentals is that the operating limitations need to have a cleared for ops in Class Bravo airspace in the limitations - I know thats pretty common but its something you need to verify unlike a certified aircraft.

No such language is needed in the op limits. If there were a restriction in the op limits *preventing* you from flying in Bravo, you'd have to obey it - but I've never heard of that. Perhaps you are thinking of something to do with Phase I?

@OP: One annoyance with your particular proposed commute is that when you have to do it IFR, they will route you *way* out of the way due to conflicts with SJC, OAK and SFO traffic flows. I have flown OAK to PAO in literally 7 minutes flight time VFR, and I have had it take just shy of an hour IFR.

 

[Henning]

Hi All,

I'm not a pilot (yet), but have always wanted to get licensed, and have sufficient discretionary income to do so. I live in the SF Bay Area, and traffic gets worse every year, and sometimes when it's really bad my commute is over 2 hours each way! it recently occurred to me that I am geographically situated to potentially fly a plane to work, perhaps 2-3 days a week.

I live about 1 mile from a decently sized private airport, and my destination airport is 37.5 miles away, but possibly traversing takeoff and landing flight corridors for OAK/SFO/SJC international airports. My destination airport is around 1-2 miles from my final destination, so I'd bring along a foldup bike (or maybe an electric skateboard ) for that final part. Would I be able to pull this off for $800-$1000 per month?

I'm guessing I would need to become a partial owner of a plane, and I'm sure that the feasibility of this is really dependent upon local conditions and airplane availability; but I'm curious if there are any obvious gotchas or concerns that I need to take into account? Any thoughts/added color is greatly appreciated.

The only wild card to doing it at the dollar figure you suggest is the fees at the airports, some places in your area have stupid high prices, and you'll be paying at both ends. As for the commute itself, if you discount paying $30,000 for a nice little IFR equipped 152 or Tomahawk, the $800-$1000 to operate 8-10 hrs a month is pretty reasonably in line with what you can expect to pay. You will have to own the plane to make this feasible.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Now that we've given up ever getting a hangar on the island (and have bought a sweet multiplane hangar at KTFP, an airport on the mainland) we are starting to shift our focus to that area as a place to buy a home.

This would leave us with the unenviable task of riding the ferry to work every day, or...

...commuting by air!

Let's see. In July the wait can be 2+ hours to board the ferry. Or, a 9 nm flight.

Hmmm...

Given the price difference between homes on the island, and homes on the mainland, I can buy a castle AND another plane for Mary to use for the same price as a double-wide on stilts out here.

Okay, I exaggerate a tad. But I'm starting to like this idea...

 

[weilke]

I'm saying for someone to commute, a 140kt plane that burns less per nm than a cessna 150, a plane that can be worked on for less and upgraded easily and cheaply due to it being experimental, that makes sense.

Per nm figures dont really matter if the plane spends most of its time idling on the ground waiting for an intersection takeoff. Did you look at how far he wants to go ? 31nm.

At 95kts that is 19min en route
At 140kts it is is 14min en route

With 10min taxi and runup, 3min climb and 5min to taxi to his tiedown, the difference is what, 10% ?

Experimental is great if you built it and it is your thing to tinker with it.

The guy isn't looking to flip the plane,

Of course he is. After a couple of months of doing this he is either going to grow sick of it and stop chasing this fantasy or he is going to use his bonus* to buy an older SR20 because his wife refuses to get into 'his little deathtrap'.









*he is going to make a big bonus this year because cutting his commute in half and arriving relaxed and refreshed makes him 100% more productive

 

[James331]

Re-read and think about the parts of my post you DIDN'T quote

 

[John221us]

I am surprised none of the Bay Area flyers have chimed in. CCR is not a private airport. It is a public airport with a tower.. Palo Alto has a tower, too. Palo Alto gets socked in a lot, especially in the summer. I agree it would be fun, but probably not a time saver.. Palo Alto is a busy airport, but we have quite a few members here that are based there and could give better advise.

 

[Henning]

I am surprised none of the Bay Area flyers have chimed in. CCR is not a private airport. It is a public airport with a tower.. Palo Alto has a tower, too. Palo Alto gets socked in a lot, especially in the summer. I agree it would be fun, but probably not a time saver.. Palo Alto is a busy airport, but we have quite a few members here that are based there and could give better advise.

Note he is not yet a pilot, by "private" I was assuming he was refering to "non-commercial, private aircraft" airport rather than "privately owned"

I think it will definitely be a time saver if he has to commute during rush hour, but it will require an instrument rating to be reliable. This is actually one of the places and situations I think an IR can really be useful in a 'low capability' plane as most of the IMC one finds there is quite docile and typically a pretty thin marine layer.

 

[Shawn]

I was just talking about this today with one of my employees. I got my PPL and plane for fun but having it as a transportation tool for work has become a large part of my flying. I am in Nor Cal and make frequent trips to LA, Sacramento and Fresno....Heck, even other parts of the Bay Area during rush hour.

What it buys is freedom. It is never cheaper than flying commercial to say So Cal...defiantly not cheaper than driving...but it buys me time...not even so much of a savings of time by time you figure out door to door times with preflight and ground transportation and such, but rather a savings of time in not having to schedule around a commercial take off time or plan around rush hour traffic. I can come and go as as I please when I WANT to go. No rushing to the commercial airport only to sit there, no cutting things early to beat traffic. Efficiency and effective use of my time is what it buys me. I can make a meeting in Sacramento and miss no more than one meal at my house. Plus it is just damn fun.

In reality as mentioned you would need a PPL at $9-12K in the Bay Area PLUS your instrument rating which is another $9-$12K. I know a guy that commutes from the Central Valley to the Bay Area daily in a 152 for the same reasons you want to. The airspace is busy but easy.

 

[Henning]

I was just talking about this today with one of my employees. I got my PPL and plane for fun but having it as a transportation tool for work has become a large part of my flying. I am in Nor Cal and make frequent trips to LA, Sacramento and Fresno...All over CA really.

What it buys is freedom. It is never cheaper than flying commercial to say So Cal...defiantly not cheaper than driving...but it buys me time...not even so much of a savings of time by time you figure out door to door times with preflight and ground transportation and such, but rather a savings of time in not having to schedule around a commercial take off time or plan around rush hour traffic. I can come and go as as I please when I WANT to go. No rushing to the commercial airport only to sit there, no cutting things early to beat traffic. Efficiency and effective use of my time is what it buys me. I can make a meeting in Sacramento and miss no more than one meal at my house. Plus it is just damn fun.

In reality as mentioned you would need a PPL at $9-12K in the Bay Area PLUS your instrument rating which is another $9-$12K. I know a guy that commutes from the Central Valley to the Bay Area daily in a 152 for the same reasons you want to. The airspace is busy but easy.

If you buy the plane first, the cost of the ratings decreases dramatically as much of that $18-$24k is absorbed into the purchase price and fixed costs of ownership. Figure about $2.5-$3.5k for the instructor, another $3500 in fuel above the fixed costs to get both ratings done in 100hrs, plus another $1000 in misc expenses of examiner fees, both pilot and medical, given a no hassle medical.

 

[Shawn]

And just a point of reference...I am currently in a tie down. If I am solo, don't need to gas up, bladder is empty, it is a clear VFR day and there is not any other airplane traffic I can be wheels up in 20 minutes from driving through the airport gate without cutting corners.

Then again I have sat for 20 minutes waiting for an IFR clearance on a not so great weather day.

 

[flibmeister]

As Ron mentioned, I commuted to work at O'Hare for almost twenty years, divided pretty evenly between a Cessna 140, a Warrior, and a Bonanza. Rarely had a problem, and with a little foresight, even those problems were minor:

1. While it's easy to depart VFR from ORD at any time of day, arriving during the afternoon could be... troublesome. So, generally, I didn't. I'd fly in for the two day shifts of my work week (7am-3pm) and single midnight shift (11pm-7am), but drove in for the two afternoon shifts (2pm-10pm or 3pm-11pm). Which wasn't bad since I didn't have to deal with rush hour traffic when driving in for an afternoon shift.

2. Problem number 2 at O'Hare is that there were no tiedowns. Anywhere. Solved that one by becoming very friendly with the FBO staff-- if I saw on our radar that there was weather headed our way, I'd call the FBO and they'd used fuel trucks and buses to create a makeshift windbreak. Worked ALMOST every time-- one time, Scott Hartwig had his 140 parked next to mine and it went up high enough to touch his wing tip, but didn't do any major damage. The line guys were great--they'd meet me at the airplane and drop me at the tower (often ignoring a bizjet or two full of bigwigs in the process....)

3. Grease the skids with anybody that matters. I got our tower chief to write a letter to the City of Chicago explaining that I often flew into work to provide familiarization flights for non-pilot controllers (which I did do, a lot), showing that I had a permanently assigned transponder code specifically for that purpose, and asking in return that all landing and parking fees be waived. The City agreed, gave me a letter exempting me from all city and FBO fees, and I made thousands of round trips into ORD without ever paying a dime.

Other than that, I had a ball. Rarely went straight home from work, because with an airplane sitting there, always seemed like someplace better to go. For the first ten years, I had to drive 11 miles (in the wrong direction) to get to the airport, so I didn't save much time compared to driving, but had fun anyway. Then I had a house built on a runway only 20 miles southwest of ORD, with a hangar in the backyard, even had a three-way switch in the house so I could flip on the preheater from the house-- that was a time saver, I could literally walk out the door 30 minutes before shift (instead of 90 minutes) and be to work on time.

Costwise? No comparison, the airplanes were enormously more expensive. But wifey worked, and didn't mind seeing most of her income disappear into thin air.

Interesting experiences were many, here's just one: I flew into work for the midnight shift, then flew out to Midway during the middle of the shift, picked up a few bags of White Castles for the tower and FBO folks, then flew back to ORD. Got back, found Sting (fresh off a concert at the Rosemount) sitting in the FBO. He took a whiff of the White Castles and wanted to know what the hell that was . He'd never experienced a "slider" before, not sure he ever will again-- but I'll always know that his first was on me (figuratively, not literally.....).

 

[RichNY]

I think merurial, the OP, is Benthepilot or checkmysix or whoever he calls himself this week.

 

[FORANE]

I commute to work via my airplane regularly Two to three times a month
I bought a Lancair 235/320 for the commute

This is me. Same mission, same plane.

 

[1600vw]

When living in Roseville CA. and working in West Sacramento, that drive was over an hr each way and its just across town.

I thought California traffic sucked. Then last year I drove through Texas. Its not so much the traffic in Texas even though that is bad, it's how they set up the roads and how wide the are or lack of width. Pull a trailer and you need two lanes. The trailer tires will be riding the white lines on both sides.

Look for a private grass strip someone might let you tie down on. We let a man come here and tie down at my home field for free. He does this in the summer months only to visit family.

The owner of this airpark even let a man put his airplane in a hangar for a few days, it was a brand new airplane, and he never charged one penny. It was nice having strangers around for a while and talking aviation.

Tony

 

[weilke]

I think merurial, the OP, is Benthepilot or checkmysix or whoever he calls himself this week.

Dont think so. Hasn't started to argue with people yet.

 

[Brad Z]

I think any basic trainer with IFR capability would fit the bill for the mission. A 150/152 is cheap to buy, cheap to insure, cheap to maintain, and cheap to fly. No need to take on a partner.

If the experiment doesn't work, he can sell it easily, or upgrade if he decides he wants a more capable aircraft.

Speaking of experimentals, he really needs to wait until after he's been in this flying thing a bit to decide he wants to go that route. For what he's trying to do, the most basic, simple airplane will do.

A note about time needed on the ends. A pilot who is familiar with his plane can safety conduct a preflight in 5 minutes easily on a simple airplane like a 150. Alternatively, I've watched pilots take 25 minutes to pre-flight. I suspect the latter aren't flying the same plane several times a week.

A towered field doesn't necessary slow things down. You need to warm the engine oil anyway so whether you're spinning the prop at your tie down, or on a long taxiway, it doesn't make a lot of difference. As a regular, they'll start to anticipate your operations and offer intersection departures and the like to get you in and out quickly.

Back when I used to fly a 152 for a traffic watch operation, I could show up to the airport at 5:50am and be in the air, on the air with the studio at 6:00am. Not rushing, not skipping anything, just efficient use of time. To further save time, I'd set my computer to run a weather briefing right as my alarm went off. The FBO handled fueling, so after shutting down I just had to tie down, log my time, and walk away. Routinely I did touchdown to hopping in my car in less than 10 minutes.

 

[John221us]

When living in Roseville CA. and working in West Sacramento, that drive was over an hr each way and its just across town.

I thought California traffic sucked. Then last year I drove through Texas. Its not so much the traffic in Texas even though that is bad, it's how they set up the roads and how wide the are or lack of width. Pull a trailer and you need two lanes. The trailer tires will be riding the white lines on both sides.

Look for a private grass strip someone might let you tie down on. We let a man come here and tie down at my home field for free. He does this in the summer months only to visit family.

The owner of this airpark even let a man put his airplane in a hangar for a few days, it was a brand new airplane, and he never charged one penny. It was nice having strangers around for a while and talking aviation.

Tony

Sacramento area traffic doesn't hold a candle to Bay Area or L.A. Area traffic. I grew up in Orange County/L.A. And have lived in the Roseville/Rocklin area for the last 22 years. Here in Sac, rush hour literally lasts an hour. In Silicon Valley, if I am not on the road by 2:00, it will take me close to four hours to make it back home. With no traffic (well normal traffic), it is just over two hours.

Concord to Palo Alto goes through a pretty messy area, but flying it is still going to be at least an hour and a half with commute, preflight, taxi, run up, climb, maneuvering in the pattern, taxi to parking, securing the plane and the commute to office. If you need fuel, add another 15 minutes. With a tie down, vs a hangar, things like adding oil and air to the tires can also add another 15 or 20 minutes. Still, I'll take flying any day, but without an IFR rating, be prepared to scrap at least half your flights or be able to wait for the marine layer to lift (often around 10:00 or 11:00 or so, if it ever does).

 

[mercurial]

Holy moly, you guys are just ridiculously helpful.

Henning, intriguing idea on buying the plane first, would those cost savings equally apply to flight hours while earning the basic license? If c150/2 prices have a pretty tight bid/ask spread, I have no problem risking a couple thousand bucks to save 10k+, since at a minimum I know I want to at least fly occasionally, for leisure.

RichNY, I don't know who those guys are, garden variety internet trolls? I'm just a regular guy with a decent job, who has an idea.

Weilke, I really like your logic on my bonus. Are there any further angles that might justify an even better plane? Although in all seriousness, I'm still young and I don't think I'll feel financially comfortable investing in a $100k+ airplane for quite some time. Maybe if I didn't have kids.

 

[Henning]

Holy moly, you guys are just ridiculously helpful.

Henning, intriguing idea on buying the plane first, would those cost savings equally apply to flight hours while earning the basic license? If c150/2 prices have a pretty tight bid/ask spread, I have no problem risking a couple thousand bucks to save 10k+, since at a minimum I know I want to at least fly occasionally, for leisure.

RichNY, I don't know who those guys are, garden variety internet trolls? I'm just a regular guy with a decent job, who has an idea.

Weilke, I really like your logic on my bonus. Are there any further angles that might justify an even better plane? Although in all seriousness, I'm still young and I don't think I'll feel financially comfortable investing in a $100k+ airplane for quite some time. Maybe if I didn't have kids.

The cost savings will apply as long as you are using the aircraft regularly. The thing you want to be careful about is purchasing the correct airplane. 150/152s range between $12k & $35k. You want to find the one in the best airframe condition first, and equipped with the best avionics suite second. (you will be flying in IMC quite regularly on your intended mission, so make sure the plane is properly equipped with what makes you comfortable) Those are the two highest cost factors with the least financial return on investment when you need to repair/upgrade. Engine time is usually best valued at purchase around mid time. Engine overhauls hold pro-rata value very well until about 3/4 time where people start calculating them as run outs.

 

[FORANE]

If you are going forward with the plan, I would buy a 150.

Find a CFI who will come to you and train you for FREE in exchange for occasional use of your plane. Buy a C-150 with less than 1000 SMOH for around 15K. Get your certificate in it, then fly it a little for experience, then sell it for about what you paid for it. You will come out ahead in both experience and cost.

It worked quite well for us. C-150's are easy to sell and cheap unlike much in aviation. Even if you did choose to quit you could get your money back provided you did not overpay when buying in; involving the CFI in the purchase / plane selection process would be recommended.

We paid 14k for our 1969 150 with 400 SMOH and sold it after 2 years for the same. We had 2 years of insurance for about $700 annually. We had 2 annuals for about $400 each. We bought some tires and misc maintenance totaling around $200 annually. We tied down for free. We had a fuel cost of about $5/gal. We had a fuel burn of about 6 gph. So for $30/ hr fuel burn, at total hours of around 100 we had a $3,000 fuel total. All in we paid about $2,600 other cost plus $3,000 fuel for a total of $5,600. Compare that to the rental rate of likely $100 / hour or more x 100 hours = $10,000, plus instructor cost of what $35 / hour x ?25 hours = $875, plus renters insurance of ?...

A big added benefit of buying your own is the ability to take it on a real cross country. An owner will learn more about the plane also.

 

[John221us]

Holy moly, you guys are just ridiculously helpful.

Henning, intriguing idea on buying the plane first, would those cost savings equally apply to flight hours while earning the basic license? If c150/2 prices have a pretty tight bid/ask spread, I have no problem risking a couple thousand bucks to save 10k+, since at a minimum I know I want to at least fly occasionally, for leisure.

RichNY, I don't know who those guys are, garden variety internet trolls? I'm just a regular guy with a decent job, who has an idea.

Weilke, I really like your logic on my bonus. Are there any further angles that might justify an even better plane? Although in all seriousness, I'm still young and I don't think I'll feel financially comfortable investing in a $100k+ airplane for quite some time. Maybe if I didn't have kids.

Look at a Cherokee 140. They have four seats, decent useful load and can be had for under $25k. I bought one when I was about 10 hours into my training. You will probably want something more after a couple of years, but it is an excellent starter plane and can easily fly two people with pretty much all the luggage you can stuff in there. I have hauled camp gear, bikes, etc. a two seater will be pretty limited in what you can do with it after training.