Fixed cost is already paid, just like the lexus. Proportional variable cost is all that counts. Fuel, oil, tires, overhaul reserves.
Commute by Plane?
- Thread starter mercurial
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Fixed cost is already paid, just like the lexus. Proportional variable cost is all that counts. Fuel, oil, tires, overhaul reserves.
MAKG1
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And repairs. Don't forget repairs. And the annual. While that may happen on a schedule, the depth of what it needs done and therefore its cost is determined by use.
The bulk of that factor of three is maintenance and overhaul.
If you think a used student trainer is only going to need oil and tires, you haven't thought this through.
Dav8or
Final Approach
Here's an outfit at your home base, KCCR.
Pacific States Aviation
Their intro flight is $120 as I guess it is a two hour lesson. One hour ground, one hour flight. They have a number of planes, but I would request either their Cessna 152, or their Cessna 150 Aerobat. (The Aerobat you can do loops in!) These planes would give you an idea of your commute environment.
If you're willing to go to another airport, I think Oakland flyers over at KOAK can do a cheaper deal in their 152. Like I posted before, I think it's only a half hour flight or so and minimal ground. I know nothing about Pacific States Aviation, but I do know Oakland flyers and I can highly recommend them.
You've done enough thinking and math, time to go fly!
Pacific States Aviation
Their intro flight is $120 as I guess it is a two hour lesson. One hour ground, one hour flight. They have a number of planes, but I would request either their Cessna 152, or their Cessna 150 Aerobat. (The Aerobat you can do loops in!) These planes would give you an idea of your commute environment.
If you're willing to go to another airport, I think Oakland flyers over at KOAK can do a cheaper deal in their 152. Like I posted before, I think it's only a half hour flight or so and minimal ground. I know nothing about Pacific States Aviation, but I do know Oakland flyers and I can highly recommend them.
You've done enough thinking and math, time to go fly!
And the same applies to cars. Few people drive cars as far into their useful life as they fly planes, as a result we dont see much in terms of ongoing maintenance cost. The depreciation alone on the smallest lexus used for that length of a commute is 5k/year. I can buy a lot of magneto overhauls and even replace a rivet or two for that kind of money.
Trainer aircraft have high maintenace cost because they are flown by hamfisted student pilots supervised by instructors who dont own the planes. Flat-spotted tires, riding the brakes, hard landings that wear out gear parts. He is going to fly his own plane and within a couple of weeks will be able to put it right on the 31 displaced threshold at stall speed and turn into the first taxiway and the tiedown field without ever touching the brakes.
A factory rebuilt O235 is $27000. The TBO is 2400hrs, in his usage (several times a week, long enough to get oil to 180F) this engine will go much longer than that. His engine reserve is going to be $10/hr.
I used to own a 10,000hr former flying club trainer. Yeah it needed some $160 exhaust stacks at one point and a $340 Chrysler alternator.
It's not the space shuttle or a Bonanza for that matter :wink2: .
James331
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A Acura, infinity and Lexus are just a dressed up honda, Nissan and Toyota anyways.
Lol, Porsche only two cars, the 911 and the not a 911.
Besides who would want a crappy tin unibodied overblown VW anyways. Smart money is, and always will be, on Vettes. New Porsches only impress people who don't know much about cars, a 90s 911 turbo is cool, but still...
C6, 30MPG highway, aluminum frame with a glass body, easy to wrench on, not much mx, huge high performance parts availability and not too pricy, stupid fast, low and wide and makes ridiculous power and they hold their value.
mercurial
Pre-Flight
I went to the aviation school to pick up my flight school books today. Couldn't do an intro flight today, fully booked. The rental rates are quite expensive: $100/hr for a 150/2, which seems kinda high. One of the flight instructors mentioned that they can assist in finding a plane for me, estimating a 0 MSOH 150/2 would be ballpark $25k-30k. He was real keen on an engine with 300 hours or less on it, although that would raise my initial investment vs. a slightly more well worn one. What do you guys think? Also it seems like finding me a plane would be a headache for them; what's their angle here (likely commission, etc?) Is buying a plane just like a car; caveat emptor?
rbridges
En-Route
I would argue to get one with at least 2-300 hours. Most major engine issues happen in the first few hundred hours and after TBO. They may offer it as a courtesy to help attract students i.e. goodwill but keep your eyes open. If you decide to pull the trigger on it, run it by on this thread. Tons of unbiased info here.
The rental rate is roughly 15-20/hour higher than here, but that's to be expected given your area. Considering they were booked for flights, it's probably about right for your location.
The rental rate is roughly 15-20/hour higher than here, but that's to be expected given your area. Considering they were booked for flights, it's probably about right for your location.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
That rental rate is right in line with what similar planes are going for around here. Since median income and cost of living in the bay area are even higher than San Diego I'd say they aren't out of the ballpark at all.
As for them helping you buy a plane, they would be very friendly doing so, but it's in their best interest for you to rent from them. Personally I'd not want a plane with less than a couple hundred hours on a major overhaul, and not more than 1300 or so. The first because as mentioned most problems come up in the first 2-300 hours and the second so I'd have plenty of hours left before needing to invest a bunch in the next overhaul.
The rest of this conversation only brings this to mind. If we're gonna talk about comparing Porsches, we might as well discuss the Porsche of the sky too
As for them helping you buy a plane, they would be very friendly doing so, but it's in their best interest for you to rent from them. Personally I'd not want a plane with less than a couple hundred hours on a major overhaul, and not more than 1300 or so. The first because as mentioned most problems come up in the first 2-300 hours and the second so I'd have plenty of hours left before needing to invest a bunch in the next overhaul.
The rest of this conversation only brings this to mind. If we're gonna talk about comparing Porsches, we might as well discuss the Porsche of the sky too
Attachments
I would consider between 300 & 500 hrs SMOH optimal because it gets you past the high rate of failure infant mortality phase and has you at the earliest phase of engine use, so you will get the most low risk hours out of it and it should be several years before you incur a major engine expense (outside of a magneto, they are really the big reliability wildcard with aircraft engines, but they are not grossly expensive either).
Do not use engine hours as your primary determining value point though. There are three key factors of cost in an airplane, and they have varying residual values. In order of least residual value per dollar spent are Airframe, Avionics, & Engine.
Any money you spend on airframe repair is lost money, and in fact can be a compounded factor as those repairs may devalue the market value of the plane.
Avionics upgrades and additions have a residual value of between 10¢ and 30¢ on the dollar depending on if it it is current generation IFR 'glass' technology with WAAS GPS (30¢) or older "6-pack" and VOR/ILS/DME-VHF based technology (10¢...maybe). Any avionics upgrades should be done with the understanding that the only value that can be counted on is usage value.
Engine overhauls and upgrades though always hold the greatest residual value. A straight up overhaul will retain a near perfect prorate value of the engine cost to 75% TBO value, then drop to core value. This means the time that you operate an engine past 75% TBO are the most economically efficient hrs you get out of an engine.
The only thing about doing this is that you will end up owning and operating a new engine through the first 250 hrs eventually, and those are the most failure prone hours statistically.
What I would look for first of all is a 152 that has spent most of its life in a hangar and has been a private commuter, as you intend to use it. You want a clean, corrosion free, airframe with the best panel possible (more likely in a commuter than a basic trainer, a 430w in the panel will do a lot for you.) Personally unless it already had the Sparrowhawk conversion done, I would be looking for one with a 1700 hr O-235 and fly that as long as I could, then do the Sparrowhawk when I decide to go through the engine.
If I wanted a really good plane for the mission, and planned to use it for many years doing what you want, and had the money to splurge, I'd find the cleanest 152 Aerobat airframe I could find, put a Garmin G-500 w/SVT and GNS-750 in the panel with an SL-30 backup, and a fresh 125hp Sparrowhawk engine in it. You'll wind up with $75k in it, but you will have the most awesome IFR 152 out there that you can put through some aerobatics as well for fun.
0 SMOH means it needs a break in which is not what a student pilot does in terms of flying. It also means a new untested motor which is not necessarily a good thing for a student who will solo soon.
I would look for one with 100-1000 SMOH. 25k-30k is high for a 150, possibly not for a 152. For point of reference, when I bought mine it was a 1969 150 with 400 SMOH and I paid 14k. Granted, it was not pretty, in fact it was kinda ugly, but it ran great, burned no oil, required no maintenance, etc...
sixpacker
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Maybe they are interested in a leaseback situation?
NNNOOOOO!!!!! Do not get involved in that, nope, nada, zero; completely bad idea for you.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
This was my first thought. Move farther out of the Bay area and commute in.
Or better yet, move to Texas and leave the insanity of CA behind completely.
ClimbnSink
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Greg
Maybe they are just cool pro aviation folks. If they are busy the instructors don't need to side hustle they are counting the days to get the next job.
rbridges
En-Route
It could also be that planes are scarce relative to students. If the OP couldn't fly that day b/c they were booked, they may have scheduling issues for flying.
KLRDMD
Pre-takeoff checklist
No, not really. The annual is an INSPECTION only. That's pretty much a fixed cost. Many people put off maintenance until the airplane is already opened up for the annual inspection, but those repairs truly are not part of what would be considered an annual, they are simply deferred maintenance that gets done at the same time as the annual inspection.
StinkBug
Cleared for Takeoff
It certainly may be that they have more students and instructors than planes, and as such taking on a student with their own plane would be helpful to them. They may also just be nice people, I've certainly met a bunch of those in aviation. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they have any sinister motives, but generally speaking they will make more money by renting you a plane and instructor. If they are eager to help you buy your own plane they may have some other reasons behind that, such as hoping for a leaseback, but even that isn't a terrible thing as far as motives go. Worst case scenario they are looking to make a few bucks by selling you flying lessons. Best case they are looking to help you get a good plane and make a few bucks selling you flying lessons.
MAKG1
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No, that's only slightly high.
Lowest I've seen around the Bay is $90/hour for a 150 or 152.
Earlier in this thread, I said the total cost of operation is about three times the fuel cost, excluding glass panels. Look around the region and find the various rental costs of a 152, and compare it to the cost of fuel at the same airport. Use 6 GPH for a 152, 8.5 GPH for a 172. That factor of three will pop out everywhere, though there is a lag at the moment due to rapidly dropping fuel prices. As a rule, no one makes money renting trainers; if they are real good, they break even.
At $5/gallon and 6 GPH, that's $30/hour in fuel. With the factor of 3, that's $90 wet Hobbs. For a 172, you get $127.50. For a 182 with its 13 GPH, it's $195. Look around and see what they really cost, and you'll find it comparable. If you go further out from the Bay, the fuel gets cheaper, but do you really want to commute to Tracy for flying lessons?
You're underestimating what it costs to fly.
The really late models command a premium and cost even more. IMO, for paltry benefit; the old ones fly exactly the same (actually, a little better as they weigh less).
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Dav8or
Final Approach
Yes!! 100 x more. Buying a plane is more like buying a house, only in the case of the plane, if you don't do your due diligence and buy the wrong one, the FAA can come by and render your plane worthless. You seem like a smart guy and one that is not afraid of some research. I would recommend you buy the plane yourself and not depend on a broker, the nice guys at the fight school.
You already have the first part figured out! You know what your mission is. The second step is to figure out which plane best fits your mission and which one you just like the best.
After that comes the obsessive research. Learn all there is to learn about the type. Join any clubs, forums, or news groups that cater to the type. Pick those people's brains. Don't worry, type enthusiasts love to share knowledge. Find out who the experts are in your type and talk to them. Go fly, or at least sit in any prospective plane and see if it fits you OK.
Once shopping, don't be afraid to travel to inspect and get your plane. It is far better to get the right plane than it is the most convenient plane. Get a pre purchase inspection from a shop, or mechanic of your choosing. Do not skip this step just because the plane comes with a "fresh annual". There are lots kinds of annuals and some them are absolutely worthless.
Any plane you want to buy, get the full logs before going to see it and go over them with a fine comb. Do a search online for the N number, the NTSB records and the FAA records to see if there is any damage history. Do a title search. Great insurance and they will turn up all the records the FAA has on the plane.
Remember, all used planes are sold as is with no warranties. If it breaks on the way home, it's all your problem. If the next annual inspection turns up something that makes it unairworthy, it's all your problem. So yeah, buyer be very aware.
A lot of people will steer you to the Cessna 150, or 152 and there is nothing wrong with them. A good solid little plane with lots of part supply and well known throughout the aviation world by pilots and mechanics alike. It's what I got my PPL in.
However, I would strongly suggest you check out the Piper Tomahawk for your mission. Same price range, same engine and prop, but a much more comfortable cabin IMO, better panel layout and it has better visibility too. Since you plan to spend so much time in the plane, I think these things will really pay off.
The only downsides to the Tomahawk AFAIK, is there are less to choose from, and airframe parts are likely a little more to buy, but I'm not sure about that. There are a lot of old OWTs about the type, so do your homework so you can ignore all the noise you'll get online. You will have to endure people constantly calling it a "Traumahawk" though.
The Piper Tomahawk-
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Three times the cost of fuel was a number we used back when fuel was below $2 a gallon, it doesn't hold that true anymore. The increase in fuel cost far outstripped the increase in maintenance and insurance, and the cost of acquisition and capital has actually fallen. Now a days it's more like 1.5x the cost of fuel.
The only downsides to the Tomahawk AFAIK, is there are less to choose from, and airframe parts are likely a little more to buy, but I'm not sure about that. There are a lot of old OWTs about the type, so do your homework so you can ignore all the noise you'll get online. You will have to endure people constantly calling it a "Traumahawk" though.
The main downside to the Tomahawk is that they are hard to sell once you are ready to upgrade.
For a commuter, I would prefer a 150/152. Doesn't get as hot in the summer, ability to leave the windows open right up to takeoff roll, wont get the interior soaked if you land in the rain.
That's pretty much it with a T-Hawk, as a plane there is nothing particularly wrong with them, but they have bad tales behind them making them tough to sell in today's market.
If Diamond would make an IFR DA-20 it would take the "ultimate urban commuter plane" title from the 150/152, but sadly it remains VFR only.
Shawn
En-Route
Remember he is doing this to save time...not save money.
Go get your PPL in a trainer and rent. That will give you a MUCH better idea of what kinda plane you will want to own as you learn more about aviation through the process...plus you will have an opportunity to fly more than one plane rather than buying one for training. A 150/152 will be fine for your commute mission, but you may ultimately want more. You don't know what you don't know yet.
Ballpark for training seems to be that 50% of the cost goes to instructor, 25% to fuel, 25% to plane so the savings in not that extreme. (awaiting counter arguments as to what that is not correct in areas OTHER than bay area!)
Once you get your PPL, THEN buy the plane for your commute and IFR training.
Go get your PPL in a trainer and rent. That will give you a MUCH better idea of what kinda plane you will want to own as you learn more about aviation through the process...plus you will have an opportunity to fly more than one plane rather than buying one for training. A 150/152 will be fine for your commute mission, but you may ultimately want more. You don't know what you don't know yet.
Ballpark for training seems to be that 50% of the cost goes to instructor, 25% to fuel, 25% to plane so the savings in not that extreme. (awaiting counter arguments as to what that is not correct in areas OTHER than bay area!)
Once you get your PPL, THEN buy the plane for your commute and IFR training.
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Thing is, regardless what other plane he may want/own, the 152 is still going to do the commute best, and by such a factor, that it makes it worth having two.
LuisO
Pre-takeoff checklist
mercurial, huh? and you work for Google you say? so you guys use "hg" for source code repository? just curious
I'm a low time (180 hrs) instrument rated private pilot. Took me exactly 1 1/2 years to get here (from zero to Instrument Private)...and I'm an IT guy also (Java), so our professional lives have some similarities.
This is my advice: do you have a family? If you do, once you get your Private Pilot Certificate (it's not a license, btw, there's a difference) you will want to take your family up for trips and such. You NEED to have at least 50 hrs of cross country time (>50 nautical mile trips) in order to get your Instrument Rating, which I hear is necessary on the SF bay area for fog, and what best way to use those trips than to go with the family for lunches, weekends and such. That's what I did and we all enjoyed it (and still do).
SO...do NOT get a 150/152. They are the equivalent to a small commuter ****box (chevy aveo and such) where only 1 passenger fits. Get something like a Piper Archer II that has plenty of useful load for you and your family and it's also on the economical side. IF you have the determination to become a pilot, and finish it, you will wish you had the right airplane to go with the family on the weekends and still commute during the week.
Just my 2 cents...a 150/152 sounds like a shortsighted advice to me.
Best of luck,
Luis.
I'm a low time (180 hrs) instrument rated private pilot. Took me exactly 1 1/2 years to get here (from zero to Instrument Private)...and I'm an IT guy also (Java), so our professional lives have some similarities.
This is my advice: do you have a family? If you do, once you get your Private Pilot Certificate (it's not a license, btw, there's a difference) you will want to take your family up for trips and such. You NEED to have at least 50 hrs of cross country time (>50 nautical mile trips) in order to get your Instrument Rating, which I hear is necessary on the SF bay area for fog, and what best way to use those trips than to go with the family for lunches, weekends and such. That's what I did and we all enjoyed it (and still do).
SO...do NOT get a 150/152. They are the equivalent to a small commuter ****box (chevy aveo and such) where only 1 passenger fits. Get something like a Piper Archer II that has plenty of useful load for you and your family and it's also on the economical side. IF you have the determination to become a pilot, and finish it, you will wish you had the right airplane to go with the family on the weekends and still commute during the week.
Just my 2 cents...a 150/152 sounds like a shortsighted advice to me.
Best of luck,
Luis.
152 to commute, Bonanza to fly the family.
LuisO
Pre-takeoff checklist
That's 2 planes man...there's something in the middle of those 2. The guy is not a millionaire or he wouldn't be thinking about a 152.
Shawn
En-Route
agreed...but gonna be the worst choice when he suddenly realizes that he wants to take a few buddies to Vegas for a weekend on a moments notice!
That is why the plane purchase for his situation is premature at THIS point in his journey.
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Seriously, it'll end up a better deal to have a commuter and a traveling machine than one that does neither particularly well. The 152 was designed to optimize that task, it was even badged as Commuter II in IFR trim. He has a 250 hour per year commuting mission for a plane. That is enough usage that you allow that mission to dictate what plane to get for it. It's also enough usage that having a family hauler as a back up becomes a good point. That's a plane better to have partners in anyway.
I know a millionaire that commuted around SoCal in a 152. Sam Walton used to fly an old 182 to observe traffic patterns. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you don't choose the right tool for the job.
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MAKG1
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If that were true, there would be lots of outfits around making 50% profit margins on rentals.
A quick look around shows a very different environment.
Dav8or
Final Approach
If Diamond would make an IFR DA-20 it would take the "ultimate urban commuter plane" title from the 150/152, but sadly it remains VFR only.
And also way more expensive. They have a long way to go before they are in 150/152 price ranges.
Is the DA-20 any cooler in the summer time than the Tomahawk? My guess is no.
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Not a major,problem in the Bay Area. The advantage it brings is glide range, the DA-20 has an incredible glide compared to a 152.
No need to own the family hauler outright. Before 2 years are up, he will have 500hrs and little problems to rent a Bonanza or get a non-equity deal where he can use someones travel plane for 25hrs/year (also, everyone and their brother will know 'the little guy who commutes in a 152').
warthog1984
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I love how you guys are setting him up with the ultimate aviation dream.
To the OP: Setup I time with a local flight school in a 152 or similar, tell them you want to do a dry run of your aerial commute. Do it. Enjoy the flight back.
After you get home, ask yourself if doing that 4-5 days/week is something you'd risk $7K on for a year or so. Make sure you're onboard with the fact that occasionally you'll need to keep the plane on the ground- whether for MX, weather, or just because you're not "all there" that day. Double your assumed operating cost.
Than, make the decision that you're either going to try it or not. If you do go for it, look for a well-maintained 60s-80s vintage plane (152/Piper or even a recent homebuilt). Engine should be <1000 hrs, but doesn't have to be brand-new. Buy it and train in it.
Look back after a year and see if you want to continue.
To the OP: Setup I time with a local flight school in a 152 or similar, tell them you want to do a dry run of your aerial commute. Do it. Enjoy the flight back.
After you get home, ask yourself if doing that 4-5 days/week is something you'd risk $7K on for a year or so. Make sure you're onboard with the fact that occasionally you'll need to keep the plane on the ground- whether for MX, weather, or just because you're not "all there" that day. Double your assumed operating cost.
Than, make the decision that you're either going to try it or not. If you do go for it, look for a well-maintained 60s-80s vintage plane (152/Piper or even a recent homebuilt). Engine should be <1000 hrs, but doesn't have to be brand-new. Buy it and train in it.
Look back after a year and see if you want to continue.
Dav8or
Final Approach
Uh oh... here comes the mission creep...
Pretty soon your ideal airplane will be either a FIKI Piper Seneca, Baron, or a Pilatus PC-12. People here on the internet will always up sell you. It's not their money. Trading planes isn't the end of the world.As long as you don't dump too much money into the first plane, or fly the engine out, you should get most, if not all your money back when you sell. Stay on target...
LuisO
Pre-takeoff checklist
Says the guy in the Mooney....
152 to an Archer II is hardly an upsell PLUS good luck finding an IFR 152. After he finds a decent 152 he has to dump another $25k to make it IFR and for that he can get a decent IFR Archer.
Let him take a ride in a 152 and see what he thinks LOL
152 to an Archer II is hardly an upsell PLUS good luck finding an IFR 152. After he finds a decent 152 he has to dump another $25k to make it IFR and for that he can get a decent IFR Archer.
Let him take a ride in a 152 and see what he thinks LOL
mercurial
Pre-Flight
So many choices. I just talked to a close friend who is an airline pilot for Spirit, and was trained long ago out of the same airport. He joked that you don't fly a 152, you wear it, and said it will be an adventure to handle it in some of the winds that whip through my route. Of course he would say these kinds of things because he's used to flying a huge ass airbus 
I really don't know how to buy an airplane and I don't want to get stuck with a dud. It's going to be difficult to buy one with true confidence until I get some experience. Also, finding the right plane is going to take a little time and patience, and I'd rather get in the air immediately and start advancing my training goals. So I guess I'll rent for the new few months until I'm not a complete moron, and then if the 152 doesn't completely freak me out and just feels good, I'll try to find a nice one.
By the way, the airport has avgas at over $4.50. I guess no one remembered to tell them that crude is in free fall right now? Is this how the FBOs make their money, a natural pricing lag, or just a general pattern of refineries squeezing a small market?
I really don't know how to buy an airplane and I don't want to get stuck with a dud. It's going to be difficult to buy one with true confidence until I get some experience. Also, finding the right plane is going to take a little time and patience, and I'd rather get in the air immediately and start advancing my training goals. So I guess I'll rent for the new few months until I'm not a complete moron, and then if the 152 doesn't completely freak me out and just feels good, I'll try to find a nice one.
By the way, the airport has avgas at over $4.50. I guess no one remembered to tell them that crude is in free fall right now? Is this how the FBOs make their money, a natural pricing lag, or just a general pattern of refineries squeezing a small market?
warthog1984
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LanCA'r
$4.50 IS the free-fall price. A few months ago, $7.50 per gallon would be normal/cheap in the Bay Area.
It's leaded gas, so it's a environmentally-horrible niche fuel.
As for buying a plane- get a good mechanic and treat it like buying a used car from Honest Eddie's savings lot. Pitfalls are about the same, other than air-worthiness items. Good starter planes are the Cessna 150/152/172, Piper Cherokees, or an experimental if you want to use auto gas.
mercurial
Pre-Flight
mercurial, huh? and you work for Google you say? so you guys use "hg" for source code repository? just curious
Good eye, total coincidence because no, AFAIK we do not use hg, it's a proprietary version of perforce. Also I'm not an engineer, more of a data analyst/mining expert, and only rarely check in code. The kind of code that gets what I need done, but makes all the real engineers roll their eyes.
The Piper Archer II looks like a sweet plane. Unfortunately, I had some major family-related expenses recently that took a big lump of flesh out of my savings, and I can't afford an $80k plane unless I push myself a little harder than I want, or give up my stubborn vow to always own my toys outright.