CO1404 off runway at DIA

I guess what's hard for some people to wrap their mind around is this concept of taking a plane into the air when you realize there is a problem.
I think that's because it's entirely contrary to what people learn when they originally start flying airplanes and it's not intuitive. People would instinctively rather be on the ground with a problem than in the air. However, that's been shown to be wrong when it comes to transport category airplanes because they are certified to take off and fly on one engine after they reach V1 and there is a whole lot more momentum involved when you try to stop. It takes a certain amount of training, or "indoctrination", as Tim called it, to reverse your earlier perceptions. Granted, if your wing falls off after V1 or there is some other reason why the airplane physically can't fly (unable to rotate, both engines fail in a twin) trying to stop is going to be your only option.
 
I think that's because it's entirely contrary to what people learn when they originally start flying airplanes and it's not intuitive. People would instinctively rather be on the ground with a problem than in the air. However, that's been shown to be wrong when it comes to transport category airplanes because they are certified to take off and fly on one engine after they reach V1 and there is a whole lot more momentum involved when you try to stop. It takes a certain amount of training, or "indoctrination", as Tim called it, to reverse your earlier perceptions. Granted, if your wing falls off after V1 or there is some other reason why the airplane physically can't fly (unable to rotate, both engines fail in a twin) trying to stop is going to be your only option.

Agreed. I suspect that if you offered the choice of flying with a known problem vs staying on the ground and running into the WallMart just past the airport boundary at 120 Kt, the "correct" choice might be more appealing to most pilots.

The fact that the distance required to stop increases with the square of the groundspeed further confuses the issue as human intuition is more linear.
 
However, that's been shown to be wrong when it comes to transport category airplanes because they are certified to take off and fly on one engine after they reach V1 and there is a whole lot more momentum involved when you try to stop. It takes a certain amount of training, or "indoctrination", as Tim called it, to reverse your earlier perceptions.
And it's really important to practice this a few times, even if you don't fly a commuter category airplane.

Some heavier light twins (those above 6,000 lbs) are certified to climb on one engine at max weight. I can imagine situations where that option might be preferable to the alternative. FAR 23 makes for an interesting read, and a good takeoff briefing every time helps a lot.

-Felix
 
And it's really important to practice this a few times, even if you don't fly a commuter category airplane.

Some heavier light twins (those above 6,000 lbs) are certified to climb on one engine at max weight. I can imagine situations where that option might be preferable to the alternative. FAR 23 makes for an interesting read, and a good takeoff briefing every time helps a lot.

-Felix

In a "heavier" "light" twin ( I suppose you are talking about piston powered) trying to takeoff with an engine failure at V1 isn't going to happen at max weight, much less a lower weight unless you have miles of runway and ideal weather conditions and a highly proficient pilot.

Your chances are slightly improved if the airplane is airborne and cleaned up when the failure occurs.
 
I think that's because it's entirely contrary to what people learn when they originally start flying airplanes and it's not intuitive. People would instinctively rather be on the ground with a problem than in the air. However, that's been shown to be wrong when it comes to transport category airplanes because they are certified to take off and fly on one engine after they reach V1 and there is a whole lot more momentum involved when you try to stop. It takes a certain amount of training, or "indoctrination", as Tim called it, to reverse your earlier perceptions. Granted, if your wing falls off after V1 or there is some other reason why the airplane physically can't fly (unable to rotate, both engines fail in a twin) trying to stop is going to be your only option.

When you think about it there is really hardly any situation in a transport category aircraft where you do reject the takeoff at or near V1. If you hit a flock of birds and wipe out your engines, it's pretty well over for takeoff anyway. As far as structural failure that in itself is a long shot of actually happening.

If I'm at 100KTS and accelerating I'm going flying.
 
I have a question for those of you that drive the big birds. What do you think of the taxi-into-the-air technique (using less than full power at takeoff if there's enough runway available)?

It would seem to me that using full power on EVERY takeoff would result in better chances should something catastrophic happen around V1, as you'd have more runway in front of you.
 
I have a question for those of you that drive the big birds. What do you think of the taxi-into-the-air technique (using less than full power at takeoff if there's enough runway available)?

It would seem to me that using full power on EVERY takeoff would result in better chances should something catastrophic happen around V1, as you'd have more runway in front of you.

What you are referring to is a "reduced" takeoff. Depending on the aircraft there are limitations on the reduction. On the B727 we can reduce to a max of .14 EPR with regards to runway/climb limits. Conditions such as anti-ice required, tail wind, wet runway, anti skid inop, pressure altitude, etc and we can't reduce. It's also Captain's discretion.

If you do have a failure during take off then you simply apply "Go Around" thrust and continue. By going max thrust at every takeoff does make it simpler, but the economics go down.
 
In a "heavier" "light" twin ( I suppose you are talking about piston powered) trying to takeoff with an engine failure at V1 isn't going to happen at max weight, much less a lower weight unless you have miles of runway and ideal weather conditions and a highly proficient pilot.

Your chances are slightly improved if the airplane is airborne and cleaned up when the failure occurs.
I wasn't talking about taking off, was I?

Anyways, it is feasible to take off in many off those planes with an engine failure at V1. If you take the published start-go distances and add 50% for safety, you still end up with tolerable conditions. That's at max gross. Below, it's even better. I suggest you try it in the sim.

-Felix
 
I wasn't talking about taking off, was I?

Anyways, it is feasible to take off in many off those planes with an engine failure at V1. If you take the published start-go distances and add 50% for safety, you still end up with tolerable conditions. That's at max gross. Below, it's even better. I suggest you try it in the sim.

-Felix

Now think about your statement. Why would you continue a takeoff at Vr (rotation) in a piston twin with marginal engine out performance when you have 50% additional runway built in for error??? You would be far better off aborting.

An aircraft weighing 7,000 pounds will decelerate rapidly compared to one weighing 195,000 pounds.

I suggest you try it in the sim.

-Felix

I suggest you get some real experience. :rolleyes:
 
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Do those "heavy" light piston twins even HAVE a published V1 speed? If they do, then they should have the rest of the balanced field stuff too, and "going" at V1 will be the same no-brainer it would be in any other transport airplane.

If they don't have balanced-field stuff, then they don't have a V1 speed. At best they have a rotation speed.
 
Do those "heavy" light piston twins even HAVE a published V1 speed?
No, even "heavy" light turboprops don't have a V1 speed. The BE-20 didn't and that's as about as heavy (12,500 lbs) as you can get while still being "light". Depending on the airplane, I think some people use rotation as the decision point and others use gear retraction. However, with light twins, there is no guarantee that they are going to climb out at all on one engine and it is better in that case to find the best place to land. This is why you can't really make too many comparisons between Part 23 and Part 25 airplanes.
 
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No, even "heavy" light turboprops don't have a V1 speed. The BE-20 didn't and that's as about as heavy (12,500 lbs) as you can get while still being "light". Depending on the airplane, I think some people use rotation as the decision point and others use gear retraction.

The Beech 99 I flew years ago had charted V1 speeds. It grossed around 10500 to 11000 if I remember correctly. The 99 was essentially an unpressurized A100 King Air.
 
Do those "heavy" light piston twins even HAVE a published V1 speed? If they do, then they should have the rest of the balanced field stuff too, and "going" at V1 will be the same no-brainer it would be in any other transport airplane.

If they don't have balanced-field stuff, then they don't have a V1 speed. At best they have a rotation speed.

Light twins use accelerate/stop charts.
 
I have a question for those of you that drive the big birds. What do you think of the taxi-into-the-air technique (using less than full power at takeoff if there's enough runway available)?

It would seem to me that using full power on EVERY takeoff would result in better chances should something catastrophic happen around V1, as you'd have more runway in front of you.

We use RTOP (Reduced Take-off Power) in the Q. It's not used for every takeoff, and we can't always reduce the same amount, it's all based on the current conditions (as R&W explained). Even at reduced power, we still have enough excess power to get out of almost any potential problem situation. NTOP (Normal T/O Power) is 96% Torque. The most we can reduce is to 83% Torque. Anything less than about 7000 feet of runway, any contamination on the runway, or if we're launching into icing conditions and we'll probably be at NTOP. There's still a more than decent safety margin built in to reduced power take offs.

If an engine fails, even if we're using reduced power, the computer automatically bumps the operating engine up to MTOP (Max T/O Power) at 100% Torques. If that's still not enough, at any time, we can push the power levers into the over-travel range (aka the oh $h!T range) and get up to 106% Torque.

Long story short, reduced power takeoffs are still using a lot of power, and we always have the option of more at a moments notice. What's more, they save gas and increase the service life of the engine.

If you want to see a truly intense reduced power t/o, watch the MD-80s at LGA. When they use derated thrust, they don't rotate until they've passed the 1000 footers on the far end of the runway. But even if they used MTOP, on such a short runway, a late abort would put them either in the drink or in the Bronx.
 
And it's really important to practice this a few times, even if you don't fly a commuter category airplane.

Some heavier light twins (those above 6,000 lbs) are certified to climb on one engine at max weight. I can imagine situations where that option might be preferable to the alternative. FAR 23 makes for an interesting read, and a good takeoff briefing every time helps a lot.

-Felix

Ask Doc Bruce what he thinks of this.
 
I have a question for those of you that drive the big birds. What do you think of the taxi-into-the-air technique (using less than full power at takeoff if there's enough runway available)?

It would seem to me that using full power on EVERY takeoff would result in better chances should something catastrophic happen around V1, as you'd have more runway in front of you.

We call it "Reduced Thrust Takeoffs." They save a tremendous amount of money on maintenance and fuel and there has not been a documented case of engine failure when using the procedure, as far as I know.

There is a lot of safety margin built in. It really isn't unsafe, as it would seem to indicate. It is done all the time.
 
Light twins use accelerate/stop charts.

That I believe, but with no guarantee of "go" performance in an accelerate/go chart, you really don't have the same sort of V1. All you get is the ability to calculate a runway that should let you almost take off and still stop.
 
We call it "Reduced Thrust Takeoffs." They save a tremendous amount of money on maintenance and fuel and there has not been a documented case of engine failure when using the procedure, as far as I know.

There is a lot of safety margin built in. It really isn't unsafe, as it would seem to indicate. It is done all the time.

Greg,

I was just thinking that with all of this discussion of things happening at V1, that to have V1 happen earlier in the takeoff roll would leave more runway in front of you and allow for a safe stop if something truly catastrophic happened even slightly after V1.

Do you have charts that would indicate an approximate difference between the ground roll between a full-power takeoff and a reduced-thrust takeoff? If it's 100 feet, then the benefits are clear - If it's 1000 feet, then I'm not sure I'm convinced yet.
 
Greg,

I was just thinking that with all of this discussion of things happening at V1, that to have V1 happen earlier in the takeoff roll would leave more runway in front of you and allow for a safe stop if something truly catastrophic happened even slightly after V1.

Do you have charts that would indicate an approximate difference between the ground roll between a full-power takeoff and a reduced-thrust takeoff? If it's 100 feet, then the benefits are clear - If it's 1000 feet, then I'm not sure I'm convinced yet.

We don't have real detailed charts. Like I said before, we deal in weights. At full thrust we can get off the runway under these conditions with X amount of weight. If we use reduced thrust, we can get off with x-y amount of weight.

Like I said, there has never been a documented case of engine failure using reduced thrust that I am aware of. And EVERY airline does it. So convinced or not, it is what it is.
 
Greg,

I was just thinking that with all of this discussion of things happening at V1, that to have V1 happen earlier in the takeoff roll would leave more runway in front of you and allow for a safe stop if something truly catastrophic happened even slightly after V1.

Do you have charts that would indicate an approximate difference between the ground roll between a full-power takeoff and a reduced-thrust takeoff? If it's 100 feet, then the benefits are clear - If it's 1000 feet, then I'm not sure I'm convinced yet.

AFaIK the real reason behind "reduced thrust" takeoffs is that the manufacturers provide the option of really abusing the engines in order to meet certification requirements under the more challenging conditions. With the exception of contaminated runways (where the effects of the contamination vary and are difficult to quantify) there already is some margin in the balanced field requirements. Also, I'm not sure but I think that takeoff power isn't reduced to the point where the balanced field length has increased to match the available runway on most of the runways used.

That said, if the SOP is to never reject a takeoff beyond V1, there really wouldn't be much advantage in using more power than needed unless there was some reason the aircraft didn't accelerate normally. I have often wondered why the FAA doesn't require something to indicate that the airplane is performing well enough to reach V1 within the expected distance to eliminate that particular risk.
 
Greg,

I was just thinking that with all of this discussion of things happening at V1, that to have V1 happen earlier in the takeoff roll would leave more runway in front of you and allow for a safe stop if something truly catastrophic happened even slightly after V1.

Do you have charts that would indicate an approximate difference between the ground roll between a full-power takeoff and a reduced-thrust takeoff? If it's 100 feet, then the benefits are clear - If it's 1000 feet, then I'm not sure I'm convinced yet.

The data we use for takeoff takes in consideration for runway performance and climb performance. It's based upon weight and temperature, along with other factors. There is no breakdown as far as distance traveled (i.e. "feet") to V1. Essentially if you are at a given weight and temperature, along with various runway conditions then you have the performance to use the runway.

When you hear the term "reduced thrust takeoff" you are only reducing power by a few %. In the terms of thrust available it's negligible. In the B727 it changes V1 by a couple of Knots.
 
I have often wondered why the FAA doesn't require something to indicate that the airplane is performing well enough to reach V1 within the expected distance to eliminate that particular risk.

Because it's not an issue. The performance data for transport category aircraft is extremely accurate.
 
Because it's not an issue. The performance data for transport category aircraft is extremely accurate.

When everything is working as expected, yes, but that's not my point. Consider a takeoff with dragging brakes, deep slush that wasn't accounted for, engines not providing the expected thrust, etc. Your distance to V1 could be considerably longer than the figure the data was based on.
 
When everything is working as expected, yes, but that's not my point. Consider a takeoff with dragging brakes, deep slush that wasn't accounted for, engines not providing the expected thrust, etc. Your distance to V1 could be considerably longer than the figure the data was based on.

Slush is accounted for, it's in the runway contamination table. A dragging break creates heat, and you will know taxiing that a brake is dragging.

Engine parameters are checked each flight via engine trend monitoring, and cross checked via EPR (if applicable) N1, N2, EGT, fuel flow.

The data is extremely accurate.
 
I know that there is nothing unsafe about it, and that the reserve of power needed for an appropriate safety margin is all there, but when we flew to Tahiti, that full-up A340 was (I swear) saying, "I think I can, I think I can..." as we ambled down the runway to takeoff. It was the only time, in a commercial airliner, when I truly felt uncomfortable.

Having no qualification of any kind to comment, I nonetheless contend that plane was a slug!
 
For those that may be curious as to what runway analysis looks like... This is for a dry runway. You'd also have the same repeated for rain, slush, snow, etc. We do not have flex thrust available.
 

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Having no qualification of any kind to comment, I nonetheless contend that plane was a slug!
Return trip, ditto. Papaete to JFK: 6289 mi. great circle distance. Good thing the obstacle clearance departure procedure from Papaete was: once you reach 10ft ASL you are good to go.....
 
FWIW, any 4 engine airplane is going to seem a bit sluggish compared to a comparable sized twin engine airplane.
 
FWIW, any 4 engine airplane is going to seem a bit sluggish compared to a comparable sized twin engine airplane.
Why is that?

I have to admit to never thinking about it. But the 777 does seem a bit more sports car like than the 747-400, but I attributed that more to gross weight issues.

Is there a relation to total available thrust per weight that explains this?
 
Why is that?

I have to admit to never thinking about it. But the 777 does seem a bit more sports car like than the 747-400, but I attributed that more to gross weight issues.

Is there a relation to total available thrust per weight that explains this?

Sort of. I will give you a few minutes to figure it out. It is pretty simple when you think about it.
 
Sort of. I will give you a few minutes to figure it out. It is pretty simple when you think about it.
Ok Obi-wan, I will give it some thought. Probably will bring it up with Grant, Mike and Pj tonight as well. But off the cuff, something to do with how fast you can get two turbine engines up to power than four?
 
Ok Obi-wan, I will give it some thought. Probably will bring it up with Grant, Mike and Pj tonight as well. But off the cuff, something to do with how fast you can get two turbine engines up to power than four?

A transport category airplane is required to be able to get off the ground with AN engine failure. One. Lose one on a 4 engine plane and you have lost only 25% of your thrust. Lose one on a 2 engine plane and you have lost HALF the thrust. A two engine plane needs that extra thrust on takeoff in case one fails. The remaining engine needs to be able to get the airplane off the ground. That is why a two engine airplane will seem to have more pep than a 4 engine plane of the same weight. That is because it DOES have more pep.
 
A transport category airplane is required to be able to get off the ground with AN engine failure. One. Lose one on a 4 engine plane and you have lost only 25% of your thrust. Lose one on a 2 engine plane and you have lost HALF the thrust. A two engine plane needs that extra thrust on takeoff in case one fails. The remaining engine needs to be able to get the airplane off the ground. That is why a two engine airplane will seem to have more pep than a 4 engine plane of the same weight. That is because it DOES have more pep.

I like that pep. I remember the first time I flew out of SNA (John Wayne) in a 757, and it was light to boot- hot-rod takeoff, climb like an elevator, then felt almost weightless as they complied with the noise-abatement procedures. Good fun!
 
How does that non-producing engine now creating more drag than thrust figure into the equation?

If you lose the inboard engine on a 74, you have less drag on one side than you would a complete loss of one engine of a 77.
 
Since Vmc in Part 25 is also based on a single engine failure, that's probably why the rudders on Widebody twins are larger then they are on widebody quads of similar size.... I think.
 
How does that non-producing engine now creating more drag than thrust figure into the equation?

If you lose the inboard engine on a 74, you have less drag on one side than you would a complete loss of one engine of a 77.

True. Which reinforces my point.
 
Greg, I've been under the impression that a failed engine's drag is negligable as long as it is still windmilling since the airflow through the engine is following a natural path. If the engine seizes, however, that is a different story.
 
Greg, I've been under the impression that a failed engine's drag is negligable as long as it is still windmilling since the airflow through the engine is following a natural path. If the engine seizes, however, that is a different story.



Well, I am not into the aerodynamics, but it doesn't make sense that a windmilling turbine would create little or no drag. I mean, a windmilling prop creates a ton of drag.

Be that as it may:

I DO know that with a twin, you have a BUNCH of excess thrust both engines running as opposed to a 4 engine airplane with all engines running.
 
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