Cleared to...

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
Recently while departing from a Class D I had the following scenario:

I filed VFR 5,500 to destination
Called CL Del on radio and was cleared 2,500 runway heading, expect 4,000 in 10 mins
ACK
read back correct
I called ground and taxied to hold short and performed runup
After runup at the threshold I called tower and was
Cleared to depart runway heading 4,000
ACK
During takeoff roll I was
Cleared on course 5,500
ACK

However because my course was obscured by a wall of clouds I wanted to continue on runway heading where it looked like I could get around before making my right turn to go in the general direction of the destination.

Tower made a second call repeating the amended clearance.
ACK turned on course

Was this an instruction or effectively same as 'own navigation' type clearance?
 
IMO you're VFR so you need to remain VFR legal, period. Since you are also in towers airspace, I would just request to hold runway heading for cloud cover. They will probably say, advise when on course, so they can put it in the computer.

No biggie.
 
I wouldn't assume "on course" or even "resume own nav" means wander around at your own discretion. Both imply following the previously assigned route.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Recently while departing from a Class D I had the following scenario:

I filed VFR 5,500 to destination
Called CL Del on radio and was cleared 2,500 runway heading, expect 4,000 in 10 mins
ACK
read back correct
I called ground and taxied to hold short and performed runup
After runup at the threshold I called tower and was
Cleared to depart runway heading 4,000
ACK
During takeoff roll I was
Cleared on course 5,500
ACK

However because my course was obscured by a wall of clouds I wanted to continue on runway heading where it looked like I could get around before making my right turn to go in the general direction of the destination.

Tower made a second call repeating the amended clearance.
ACK turned on course

Was this an instruction or effectively same as 'own navigation' type clearance?
Click to expand...

Usually a VFR departure doesn't get that kind of clearance, but once you accepted it.... Once you were outside the Class D, you could request to leave tower frequency as there's no need to talk to them.

Had I been in your position, I'd either make the request of what you want, or (if applicible) state that you'd be unable VFR with an immdiate turn and request straight-out departure.

Case in point: last week HEF was repainting 16R/34L & the taxiways for that runway. Traffic using 34L & R. They issued instructions to runup at the 16R runup area, then were going to have me taxi for takeoff on either 16L or 34R. With no traffic apparent for 34L/16R, I requested 16R, and was issued a takeoff clearance on 16R (saving the taxi time & simplifying the ground control). Sometimes you don't get unless you ask.
 
When you say "filed VFR" do you mean you filed a flight plan with FSS, or did you request flight following prior to departure? Normally the the tower is unaware of your VFR flight plan.
 
However because my course was obscured by a wall of clouds I wanted to continue on runway heading where it looked like I could get around before making my right turn to go in the general direction of the destination.
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You're VFR and expected to remain so.

If you've accepted a clearance, then you need to obtain an amended clearance, or advise unable. If you can't fly into the cloud, then do what you need to do and advise ATC of your intentions. You don't need a clearance to avoid an unsafe situation.

If you're simply departing Class D airspace, then your need to comply with ATC's instructions ends at the limits of the controlled airspace, while operating under VFR.
 
Jaybird180 said:
DUATS
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As in, you filed a VFR flight plan that is open and closed by FSS, or an SFRA flight plan where you file IFR to go in the ATC system but put a VFR altitude?

It sounds more like you got an IFR clearance, from what you describe. Whenever you are unsure of the clearance (i.e. fly runway heading versus proceed on course), ask.
 
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Jaybird180 said:
Recently while departing from a Class D I had the following scenario:

I filed VFR 5,500 to destination
Called CL Del on radio and was cleared 2,500 runway heading, expect 4,000 in 10 mins
ACK
read back correct
I called ground and taxied to hold short and performed runup
After runup at the threshold I called tower and was
Cleared to depart runway heading 4,000
ACK
During takeoff roll I was
Cleared on course 5,500
ACK

However because my course was obscured by a wall of clouds I wanted to continue on runway heading where it looked like I could get around before making my right turn to go in the general direction of the destination.

Tower made a second call repeating the amended clearance.
ACK turned on course

Was this an instruction or effectively same as 'own navigation' type clearance?
Click to expand...

None of this makes sense. The only thing you should be "cleared" for when departing VFR from an airport in Class D airspace is takeoff. What airport is this?
 
roncachamp said:
None of this makes sense. The only thing you should be "cleared" for when departing VFR from an airport in Class D airspace is takeoff. What airport is this?
Click to expand...

I think maybe the OP just didn't write it in the exact order, e.g. "cleared for takeoff, maintain runway heading, etc....
 
roncachamp said:
None of this makes sense. The only thing you should be "cleared" for when departing VFR from an airport in Class D airspace is takeoff. What airport is this?
Click to expand...
That is exactly what I was thinking.....why would you need to contact Clearance Delivery for a departure clearance out of Class D?
 
I'm guessing you were practicing IFR? That last statement was telling you to follow the clearance making the turn at your discretion and advising him when you had completed the turn and were on course.
 
I was cleared for takeoff on a runway heading out of Monterey (Class C) a couple of weeks ago and would have ended up in the clouds, I requested a left cross wind to avoid clouds and it was immediately granted. When I depart RHV (busy Class D), they typically dictate my heading and my turnout (you are usually heading directly at SF Class B.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I think maybe the OP just didn't write it in the exact order, e.g. "cleared for takeoff, maintain runway heading, etc....
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The altitude assignments don't make sense either, especially the "expect 4,000 in 10 mins". How far outside of Class D airspace will he be in ten minutes?
 
roncachamp said:
The altitude assignments don't make sense either, especially the "expect 4,000 in 10 mins". How far outside of Class D airspace will he be in ten minutes?
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Yeah, 4,000 is an IFR altitude. I'd bet that they had him pegged as an IFR flight, either because they misunderstood or because there was an error in the DUATS filing.
 
gprellwitz said:
Yeah, 4,000 is an IFR altitude. I'd bet that they had him pegged as an IFR flight, either because they misunderstood or because there was an error in the DUATS filing.
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I get even '000' altitudes from ATC quite frequently VFR if they are asking for an altitude. I consider them 'ATC assigned' altitudes rather than IFR.
 
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I'd be willing to bet one of two things, knowing where he's based....

1) He flew from a certain airport that sometimes has trainee controllers and/or ones that are not always the sharpest knives in the drawer (I was given 3 botched clearances in the last 10 days at said airport, including a clearance to "right downwind" to the wrong runway.)

2) He flew from a certain airport that has a new tower, where the tower controllers are not yet up to speed.

Just a wild guess.

By the way, operating VFR in the SFRA, you will NOT get a clearance unless you're cleared into the Bravo airspace. You'll get "transponder observed" or "transponder observed, proceed on course", but not even "radar contact" unless requesting flight following or IFR.
 
roncachamp said:
None of this makes sense. The only thing you should be "cleared" for when departing VFR from an airport in Class D airspace is takeoff. What airport is this?
Click to expand...

So I made it all up???

Fearless Tower said:
That is exactly what I was thinking.....why would you need to contact Clearance Delivery for a departure clearance out of Class D?
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Because I have previously been instructed to by Ground at KRDU IIRC, which is Class C - or perhaps this same airport during another occasion, not sure. I don't fly to controlled fields often so I duplicated previous behavior. I hadn't thought about it since until I was starting up and about to call ground.

Brad Z said:
As in, you filed a VFR flight plan that is open and closed by FSS, or an SFRA flight plan where you file IFR to go in the ATC system but put a VFR altitude?

It sounds more like you got an IFR clearance, from what you describe. Whenever you are unsure of the clearance (i.e. fly runway heading versus proceed on course), ask.
Click to expand...

Nope. I just went back into Foreflight and verified that i filed VFR. My filed plan was KPHF to W95 via KFFA. When asked destination I told them FFA. Apparently someone amended my plan because when handed off to Norfolk center, they had FFA as destination when I picked up flight following. I never activated on 122.2.

roncachamp said:
The altitude assignments don't make sense either, especially the "expect 4,000 in 10 mins". How far outside of Class D airspace will he be in ten minutes?
Click to expand...
Not sure if they meant 10mins from 'now' or after takeoff.


wsuffa said:
I'd be willing to bet one of two things, knowing where he's based....

1) He flew from a certain airport that sometimes has trainee controllers and/or ones that are not always the sharpest knives in the drawer (I was given 3 botched clearances in the last 10 days at said airport, including a clearance to "right downwind" to the wrong runway.)

2) He flew from a certain airport that has a new tower, where the tower controllers are not yet up to speed.

Just a wild guess.

By the way, operating VFR in the SFRA, you will NOT get a clearance unless you're cleared into the Bravo airspace. You'll get "transponder observed" or "transponder observed, proceed on course", but not even "radar contact" unless requesting flight following or IFR.
Click to expand...

See above
 
John221us said:
I was cleared for takeoff on a runway heading out of Monterey (Class C) a couple of weeks ago and would have ended up in the clouds, I requested a left cross wind to avoid clouds and it was immediately granted. When I depart RHV (busy Class D), they typically dictate my heading and my turnout (you are usually heading directly at SF Class B.
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The last time I departed Monterey I had to request an early crosswind for the same reason, with the same result as you got. (For those who haven't departed VFR out of there, normally they instruct you not to turn crosswind until crossing the freeway, which I assume is for noise abatement purposes.)

I get the impression that the controllers there are used to it, because it's very common for the stratus to hang off the departure end of the runway, and pilots often can't tell exactly how far off the end until they get in the air.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Tower made a second call repeating the amended clearance.
ACK turned on course
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I gather you were past the clouds by that time?

If the clouds were still preventing turning on course at that point, I would just say "I'll need to fly straight out a little longer due to clouds."
 
I could turn in that general direction, but if not prompted I would have continued before turning. Clouds look easier to weave around when they're far away and I'm still learning to judge distance. Those clouds were larger than I thought before takeoff.
 
Oh, PHF. Their Class D overlaps 2 others. May have been something arriving or departing from Langley and they wanted to keep you clear. Don't know what the arrangements are between the three towers down there.

Still, the clearance is not typical of a VFR departure clearance.
 
If there is a clearance delivery freq listed at a towered airport, vfr or ifr, i call clearance delivery first.

Jay is right, departing vfr at krdu you will get scolded if you call ground before clearance delivery!

I dont regularly file vfr flight plans. They're clunky and controllers dont have access to them like ifr plans.

If i am departing VFR from an airport w clearance delivery, i simply call clearance delivery, tell them i am a Cessna 152, at (fbo) with information (whatever) VFR to (destination) request 4500 feet

They'll read back a 'clearance' its not an ifr clearance, but a class C clearance. 'depart runway 23L, maintain Vfr at or below 2000, expect 4500 within 10 miles, departure freq 132.35, squawk xxxx"

"readback correct, contact ground when ready to taxi"
 
dell30rb said:
If there is a clearance delivery freq listed at a towered airport, vfr or ifr, i call clearance delivery first.
Click to expand...

Why call Clearance Delivery when there's no clearance to be delivered?

If i am departing VFR from an airport w clearance delivery, i simply call clearance delivery, tell them i am a Cessna 152, at (fbo) with information (whatever) VFR to (destination) request 4500 feet

They'll read back a 'clearance' its not an ifr clearance, but a class C clearance. 'depart runway 23L, maintain Vfr at or below 2000, expect 4500 within 10 miles, departure freq 132.35, squawk xxxx"

"readback correct, contact ground when ready to taxi"
Click to expand...

There is no "Class C clearance".
 
roncachamp said:
Why call Clearance Delivery when there's no clearance to be delivered?



There is no "Class C clearance".
Click to expand...

Because at some class C airports they expect you to call them even if your departure is "VFR to xxxx"

It doesn't make a lot of sense though I agree.
 
roncachamp said:
Why call Clearance Delivery when there's no clearance to be delivered?



There is no "Class C clearance".
Click to expand...


I've done this several times, call up ground at a busy airport, give them your spiel "cessna xxx VFR to xxx request 4500 feet" and you'll get back "contact clearance delivery on 120.1"

so you call up clearance delivery and repeat your request.

If I am departing VFR at a towered airport, I pull up the airport diagram, and I contact clearance delivery first, if a freq is listed. If not, I call ground first.

Right, class c clearance is not an official term. I made it up. But you'll get instructions, and you're expected to copy them. In that way, its a lot like a clearance.

Its also important to know that your "clearance" is just what you should expect, and not necessarily what you'll get. The departure controller can give you random headings and altitudes depending on what's out there at the time. Many times you'll get an early turn on course and climb to your altitude.

Its important to know that if a controller issues instructions )vfr or ifr) that will put you in harms way (like into the clouds if VFR) you can simply tell them unable. It is prudent to tell them why ASAP, and its also prudent to suggest a solution if you can, because the controller can't see what conditions you are in. For example, you get "turn right heading 360, maintain VFR at or above 2500 feet" you might reply with "unable, request heading 350 and 2000 feet to maintain clear of clouds"
 
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dell30rb said:
I've done this several times, call up ground at a busy airport, give them your spiel "cessna xxx VFR to xxx request 4500 feet" and you'll get back "contact clearance delivery on 120.1"

so you call up clearance delivery and repeat your request.

If I am departing VFR at a towered airport, I pull up the airport diagram, and I contact clearance delivery first, if a freq is listed. If not, I call ground first.

Right, class c clearance is not an official term. I made it up. But you'll get instructions, and you're expected to copy them. In that way, its a lot like a clearance.

Its also important to know that your "clearance" is just what you should expect, and not necessarily what you'll get. The departure controller can give you random headings and altitudes depending on what's out there at the time. Many times you'll get an early turn on course and climb to your altitude.

Its important to know that if a controller issues instructions )vfr or ifr) that will put you in harms way (like into the clouds if VFR) you can simply tell them unable. It is prudent to tell them why ASAP, and its also prudent to suggest a solution if you can, because the controller can't see what conditions you are in. For example, you get "turn right heading 360, maintain VFR at or above 2500 feet" you might reply with "unable, request heading 350 and 2000 feet to maintain clear of clouds"
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Calling Clearance Delivery at a Class C airport makes some sense as they will issue a squawk. But calling CD at a Class D airport? I suppose if you want to pre-coordinate flight following, but that's it. Saying anything about a VFR flight plan is only going to confuse the situation.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Because at some class C airports they expect you to call them even if your departure is "VFR to xxxx"
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Why do they expect that? There's nothing in the AIM that even implies pilots should call Clearance Delivery when departing an airport in Class C airspace. Do they put something on the ATIS?
 
roncachamp said:
Why do they expect that? There's nothing in the AIM that even implies pilots should call Clearance Delivery when departing an airport in Class C airspace. Do they put something on the ATIS?
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In some cases, yes, it is on the ATIS. In addition, there's one airport that has a noise abatement process that requires even spam-cans to call clearance/ground before engine start regardless of VFR/IFR.

And you do need a taxi clearance (as opposed to an airspace clearance). At some class C airports, the CD position assigns the takeoff runway and squawk, then hands you off to ground. CMH used to be that way (been a while since I've been there), as were a few others that I've used. Most of the time I'm IFR out of class C, but on those occasions where I'm VFR, I find that there's no problem calling CD first.

That said, I'd not call CD at a class D for VFR unless told to by ground. rarely are Class D airports busy enough to staff the position.
 
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I'm used to both class C and class D airports requesting (usually on the ATIS) that all departures contact clearance delivery, whether VFR or IFR. When I've done that I've usually gotten some departure instructions/limits and a squawk code, and instructions to contact ground for taxi.

Usually those instructions are fairly simple, and include a departure heading, an altitude limit, and perhaps the frequency of the approach controller in class C or B airspace if I'm expected to enter it.

Regardless, when I'm VFR, if ATC gives me an instruction that will cause me to bust VFR cloud clearance minimums, I tell them "unable" and why. Never had an issue. Or if I need a change in heading or altitude, I request it and tell them why.
 
roncachamp said:
Neither question is answered in message 19.
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Jaybird180 said:
Because I have previously been instructed to by Ground at KRDU IIRC, which is Class C - or perhaps this same airport during another occasion, not sure. I don't fly to controlled fields often so I duplicated previous behavior. I hadn't thought about it since until I was starting up and about to call ground.

Nope. I just went back into Foreflight and verified that i filed VFR. My filed plan was KPHF to W95 via KFFA. When asked destination I told them FFA. Apparently someone amended my plan because when handed off to Norfolk center, they had FFA as destination when I picked up flight following. I never activated on 122.2.
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Hope this makes it clearer
 
Similar to PHF, the Stinson (SSF) Class D overlaps the Kelly/Lackland AFB Class D. Typical instructions off of Stinson for VFR or IFR traffic were to remain clear of Kelly. That meant a fairly quick turnout if using the "west" runways, and careful attention to base on the east runways.
 
dell30rb said:
I've done this several times, call up ground at a busy airport, give them your spiel "cessna xxx VFR to xxx request 4500 feet" and you'll get back "contact clearance delivery on 120.1"

so you call up clearance delivery and repeat your request.

If I am departing VFR at a towered airport, I pull up the airport diagram, and I contact clearance delivery first, if a freq is listed. If not, I call ground first.

Right, class c clearance is not an official term. I made it up. But you'll get instructions, and you're expected to copy them. In that way, its a lot like a clearance.

Its also important to know that your "clearance" is just what you should expect, and not necessarily what you'll get. The departure controller can give you random headings and altitudes depending on what's out there at the time. Many times you'll get an early turn on course and climb to your altitude.
Click to expand...

I fly out of an airport in Class C airspace. Departing VFR the first call is to Ground Control. Ground Control will provide runway assignment, taxi clearance, beacon code, and an instruction to maintain VFR at or below 3000. When ready for takeoff Tower will assign a heading or course with the takeoff clearance. I don't see any advantage to anyone in requiring a separate call to Clearance Delivery for a beacon code and altitude restriction.
 
wsuffa said:
And you do need a taxi clearance (as opposed to an airspace clearance). At some class C airports, the CD position assigns the takeoff runway and squawk, then hands you off to ground. CMH used to be that way (been a while since I've been there), as were a few others that I've used. Most of the time I'm IFR out of class C, but on those occasions where I'm VFR, I find that there's no problem calling CD first.
Click to expand...

That's a Ground Control function.
 
roncachamp said:
I fly out of an airport in Class C airspace. Departing VFR the first call is to Ground Control. Ground Control will provide runway assignment, taxi clearance, beacon code, and an instruction to maintain VFR at or below 3000. When ready for takeoff Tower will assign a heading or course with the takeoff clearance. I don't see any advantage to anyone in requiring a separate call to Clearance Delivery for a beacon code and altitude restriction.
Click to expand...

I don't either, but obviously other airports do feel there's a reason to do this.
 
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