Cleared to...

wsuffa said:
Usually a VFR departure doesn't get that kind of clearance, but once you accepted it.... Once you were outside the Class D, you could request to leave tower frequency as there's no need to talk to them.

Had I been in your position, I'd either make the request of what you want, or (if applicible) state that you'd be unable VFR with an immdiate turn and request straight-out departure.

Case in point: last week HEF was repainting 16R/34L & the taxiways for that runway. Traffic using 34L & R. They issued instructions to runup at the 16R runup area, then were going to have me taxi for takeoff on either 16L or 34R. With no traffic apparent for 34L/16R, I requested 16R, and was issued a takeoff clearance on 16R (saving the taxi time & simplifying the ground control). Sometimes you don't get unless you ask.
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Minor nit: Request is not necessary...AIM 4-3-2(a).

Bob Gardner
 
roncachamp said:
An unnecessary middleman.
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Like this:
roncachamp said:
I fly out of an airport in Class C airspace. Departing VFR the first call is to Ground Control. Ground Control will provide runway assignment, taxi clearance, beacon code, and an instruction to maintain VFR at or below 3000. When ready for takeoff Tower will assign a heading or course with the takeoff clearance. I don't see any advantage to anyone in requiring a separate call to Clearance Delivery for a beacon code and altitude restriction.
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At some airports, unnecessary. At a larger airport like RDU it makes a lot of sense for me to sort out departure info with CD so i am not tying up ground unnecessarily when they have 10 planes moving around on the ground
 
roncachamp said:
Why do they expect that? There's nothing in the AIM that even implies pilots should call Clearance Delivery when departing an airport in Class C airspace. Do they put something on the ATIS?
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KFAT ground has asked me to go through clearance delivery first, why I don't know. But normally I wouldn't do that.
 
roncachamp said:
Why do they expect that? There's nothing in the AIM that even implies pilots should call Clearance Delivery when departing an airport in Class C airspace. Do they put something on the ATIS?
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I wouldn't necessarily expect pilots to know why ATC does things. Maybe it would be more effective to ask your question on an ATC forum:

http://www.stuckmic.com/atc-aviation-forums/

I call CD first at a class C airport because that's what my CFI taught me to do. Since ATC at some airports seems to expect it, and they have never complained about my doing it, I see no reason to change my procedure. It really doesn't matter to me which frequency I use, so whatever they want me to do is fine with me.

I've never been at a class D airport that had a CD frequency, but if I saw a frequency listed in the A/FD, I would probably use it.
 
dell30rb said:
At some airports, unnecessary. At a larger airport like RDU it makes a lot of sense for me to sort out departure info with CD so i am not tying up ground unnecessarily when they have 10 planes moving around on the ground
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Last week at KAPA, I thought I was being "smart" to call CD to let them know I would be departing no-transponder and had already talked to DEN TRACON on the phone and had a waiver to get the airplane to the avionics shop at BJC.

Saves airtime on Ground, I thought. They'll appreciate it, I thought. Ha. No.

Called CD, told them about it. They said, "Thanks, we'll note it." Made sure they read back the correct tail number. No confusion.

Called Ground. All normal. The usual special procedures to call Ground for sequencing to the hold line and "Monitor Tower..."

"Cessna 79M, cleared for takeoff Runway 35L, no delay. Traffic is on a three mile final."

Departed. Tower says, "Cessna 79 Mike, not receiving your transponder. Reset transponder."

"We're negative-transponder on a waiver from the TRACON to Metro today, 79M"

"You need to let ground know in the future on that."

"We did let Clearance Delivery know, they said they'd pass it to you, 79M"

"Yeah, um... (sound of shuffling flight strips and papers)... you still need to let Ground know next time."

"Roger. 79M"

Short transmission. No point in tying up any more airtime discussing it... as I rolled my eyes and flipped the BJC ATIS on in Comm 2. I'll be there before you're un-confused, dude. Haha.
 
http://sba.natca.org/New_Web/info-for-piolts.html


Santa Barbara Class C Procedures
Pilots are requested to please adhere to the following procedures when departing from the Santa Barbara Airport.
1. Monitor the ATIS on 132.65. This will inform the pilot of pertinent local weather conditions, runway in use, etc.
2. Contact Clearance Delivery on 132.9. This is required of all VFR and IFR departures. Please advise the controller of your call sign, type aircraft, direction of flight or destination. Additionally, please confirm receipt of current ATIS by stating ATIS code. BE PREPARED TO COPY DEPARTURE PROCEDURE INFORMATION. All aircraft departing the airport are assigned initial departure headings, altitudes, frequencies, and transponder codes. Please read back the clearance to ensure correctness and comprehension. Adherence to assigned headings and altitudes is imperative for air safety. When the clearance has been received, please contact ground control on 121.7
3. When contacting ground control, please state your call sign and position on the airport in your initial call-up. Ground Control will assign the departure runway, and will also specify a taxi route if necessary. REMEMBER TO READ BACK ALL RUNWAY ASSIGNMENTS AND HOLD SHORT INSTRUCTIONS. Controllers are required to ensure receipt of these items by obtaining pilot read backs verbatim. When you are number one at the hold line for your assigned runway, contact the tower controller on 119.7.
4. The tower controller will issue you a takeoff clearance when traffic permits. Obviously, based on traffic, you may not receive a takeoff clearance immediately. Remember to acknowledge all transmissions directed to you aircraft. We request that aircraft not operate their transponder in the ON position until airborne. ONCE AIRBORNE, REMAIN ON THE TOWER FREQUENCY UNTIL ADVISED TO "CONTACT DEPARTURE".
5. Contact the approach controller on the assigned frequency. Due to traffic, you may be assigned additional headings and altitudes. Compliance with these instructions is imperative to air safety. Once safely clear of conflicting traffic, aircraft will normally be instructed to "resume own navigation and appropriate VFR altitudes". However, these instructions may be spaced apart as traffic warrants. For clarification, "resume own navigation" means only to fly a heading of the pilot's choice, not a clearance to climb. Conversely, "resume appropriate VFR altitudes" is a clearance to climb, but not a clearance to deviate from an assigned heading. IFR aircraft will of course be assigned headings and altitudes throughout their flight.
Unless the pilot has requested VFR flight following to the destination airport, RADAR services will only be provided to the edge of Santa Barbara Approach Control Airspace.​
 
Palmpilot said:
I've never been at a class D airport that had a CD frequency, but if I saw a frequency listed in the A/FD, I would probably use it.
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Many Class D airports have a CD frequency that's only used when the tower is closed. On some (like SSF), it's the same frequency as ground. On others, like LUK, it's a different frequency. When the tower is closed, CD is handled by the nearby TRACON - it's always "interesting" when one gets a clearance a few minutes before the tower opens & plans takeoff after tower open.
 
roncachamp said:
Why do they expect that? There's nothing in the AIM that even implies pilots should call Clearance Delivery when departing an airport in Class C airspace. Do they put something on the ATIS?
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There's a good few both C and D airports that tell you to call CD first.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is exactly what I was thinking.....why would you need to contact Clearance Delivery for a departure clearance out of Class D?
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I've had to do that at a few places. First place was KTEB... it was the first call before Ground. They would simply approve my VFR departure in a cardinal direction. Never got refused. I always felt it was less a formal request for a clearance than a heads-up so they could plan ahead.
 
John221us said:
http://sba.natca.org/New_Web/info-for-piolts.html


Santa Barbara Class C Procedures
Pilots are requested to please adhere to the following procedures when departing from the Santa Barbara Airport.
1. Monitor the ATIS on 132.65. This will inform the pilot of pertinent local weather conditions, runway in use, etc.
2. Contact Clearance Delivery on 132.9. This is required of all VFR and IFR departures. Please advise the controller of your call sign, type aircraft, direction of flight or destination. Additionally, please confirm receipt of current ATIS by stating ATIS code. BE PREPARED TO COPY DEPARTURE PROCEDURE INFORMATION. All aircraft departing the airport are assigned initial departure headings, altitudes, frequencies, and transponder codes. Please read back the clearance to ensure correctness and comprehension. Adherence to assigned headings and altitudes is imperative for air safety. When the clearance has been received, please contact ground control on 121.7
3. When contacting ground control, please state your call sign and position on the airport in your initial call-up. Ground Control will assign the departure runway, and will also specify a taxi route if necessary. REMEMBER TO READ BACK ALL RUNWAY ASSIGNMENTS AND HOLD SHORT INSTRUCTIONS. Controllers are required to ensure receipt of these items by obtaining pilot read backs verbatim. When you are number one at the hold line for your assigned runway, contact the tower controller on 119.7.
4. The tower controller will issue you a takeoff clearance when traffic permits. Obviously, based on traffic, you may not receive a takeoff clearance immediately. Remember to acknowledge all transmissions directed to you aircraft. We request that aircraft not operate their transponder in the ON position until airborne. ONCE AIRBORNE, REMAIN ON THE TOWER FREQUENCY UNTIL ADVISED TO "CONTACT DEPARTURE".
5. Contact the approach controller on the assigned frequency. Due to traffic, you may be assigned additional headings and altitudes. Compliance with these instructions is imperative to air safety. Once safely clear of conflicting traffic, aircraft will normally be instructed to "resume own navigation and appropriate VFR altitudes". However, these instructions may be spaced apart as traffic warrants. For clarification, "resume own navigation" means only to fly a heading of the pilot's choice, not a clearance to climb. Conversely, "resume appropriate VFR altitudes" is a clearance to climb, but not a clearance to deviate from an assigned heading. IFR aircraft will of course be assigned headings and altitudes throughout their flight.
Unless the pilot has requested VFR flight following to the destination airport, RADAR services will only be provided to the edge of Santa Barbara Approach Control Airspace.​
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I don't normally check union websites for flying information.
 
Thanks PoA for clearing up that calling CD was appropriate...

...so, was tower giving me an instruction or advice when clearing me on-course?
 
Henning said:
I get even '000' altitudes from ATC quite frequently VFR if they are asking for an altitude. I consider them 'ATC assigned' altitudes rather than IFR.
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It's not the even altitude that implies the controller thought he was issuing an IFR clearance, it's the "expect xxxx after 10 minutes." That's done on IFR clearances in case of lost comm, and I don't think there's any situation where that should be issued to a VFR aircraft.
 
roncachamp said:
Why do they expect that? There's nothing in the AIM that even implies pilots should call Clearance Delivery when departing an airport in Class C airspace. Do they put something on the ATIS?
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Ron,

GRB is unlike most class C's IME. At MSN they do want you to call Clearance Delivery first, and it says so on the ATIS (despite the fact that CD and Ground are being worked by the same controller practically all the time). That has been the practice at the vast majority of C's I've been to.

FWIW, I've been told by Ground to contact CD - I have *never* been told by CD to contact ground at a C. Even yours.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Thanks PoA for clearing up that calling CD was appropriate...

...so, was tower giving me an instruction or advice when clearing me on-course?
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If you are inside their airspace then it's an instruction. Advise is when VFR and center says, "suggest left 10 to avoid traffic".
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ron,

GRB is unlike most class C's IME. At MSN they do want you to call Clearance Delivery first, and it says so on the ATIS (despite the fact that CD and Ground are being worked by the same controller practically all the time). That has been the practice at the vast majority of C's I've been to.

FWIW, I've been told by Ground to contact CD - I have *never* been told by CD to contact ground at a C. Even yours.
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Must be that GRB controllers are more capable than others.
 
Alexb2000 said:
If you are inside their airspace then it's an instruction. Advise is when VFR and center says, "suggest left 10 to avoid traffic".
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Okay, so here's a nit:

They used the word "cleared". I understood this to mean "I am now authorized to do xyz" instead of "Execute xyz".

From Pilot Controller Glossary said:
CLEARED APPROACH- ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute any standard or special instrument approach procedure for that airport. Normally, an aircraft will be cleared for a specific instrument approach procedure.
(See CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE.)
(Refer to 14 CFR Part 91.)
(Refer to AIM.) ​
CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH- ATC authorization for an aircraft to execute a specific instrument approach procedure to an airport; e.g., “Cleared ILS Runway Three Six Approach.”
(See APPROACH CLEARANCE.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURE.)
(Refer to 14 CFR Part 91.)
(Refer to AIM.) ​
CLEARED AS FILED- Means the aircraft is cleared to proceed in accordance with the route of flight filed in the flight plan. This clearance does not include the altitude, DP, or DP Transition.
(See REQUEST FULL ROUTE CLEARANCE.)
(Refer to AIM.) ​
CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF- ATC authorization for an aircraft to depart. It is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions.
CLEARED FOR THE OPTION- ATC authorization for an aircraft to make a touch‐and‐go, low approach, missed approach, stop and go, or full stop landing at the discretion of the pilot. It is normally used in training so that an instructor can evaluate a student's performance under changing situations.
(See OPTION APPROACH.)
(Refer to AIM.) ​
CLEARED THROUGH- ATC authorization for an aircraft to make intermediate stops at specified airports without refiling a flight plan while en route to the clearance limit.
CLEARED TO LAND- ATC authorization for an aircraft to land. It is predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions.
CLEARWAY- An area beyond the takeoff runway under the control of airport authorities within which terrain or fixed obstacles may not extend above specified limits. These areas may be required for certain turbine‐powered operations and the size and upward slope of the clearway will differ depending on when the aircraft was certificated.
(Refer to 14 CFR Part 1.) ​
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Jaybird180 said:
Okay, so here's a nit:

They used the word "cleared". I understood this to mean "I am now authorized to do xyz" instead of "Execute xyz".
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I'm not sure that interpretation is consistent with 91.123(a).
 
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